Asteroids vs Flak Bursts on USVSD

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Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:09 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
And of course, on Poe's WMD page, in that chapter about asteroids and A-holes (please notice the irony),Mr. Poe, just like his cousin Young did years ago, literally invents asteroids.
The method?
Point at a glowing burst of flak and shout vaporized asteroid!
Sure. How obvious! Maybe the asteroids were cloaked before getting hit I suppose. Natural cloaking tech found in asteroid fields. Someone must harvest that! Quick!
In fairness to Brian Young, he was simply taking screencaps that Wayne had sent him, and had claimed to Brian that the images of the flack burst was of an asteroid being vaporized. However, Brian never double-checked that, and he is at fault for not correcting the error.
-Mike

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:20 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
And of course, on Poe's WMD page, in that chapter about asteroids and A-holes (please notice the irony),Mr. Poe, just like his cousin Young did years ago, literally invents asteroids.
The method?
Point at a glowing burst of flak and shout vaporized asteroid!
Sure. How obvious! Maybe the asteroids were cloaked before getting hit I suppose. Natural cloaking tech found in asteroid fields. Someone must harvest that! Quick!
In fairness to Brian Young, he was simply taking screencaps that Wayne had sent him, and had claimed to Brian that the images of the flack burst was of an asteroid being vaporized. However, Brian never double-checked that, and he is at fault for not correcting the error.
-Mike
Ah we always learn new things, don't we :)

So, basically, the asterovape fallacy found on two different sites comes from the same dishonest source.

Yes, Young should haev double checked the data. What's saddening is that apparently, no one disputed the claim!
It tells long about the honesty of certain persons from those SW circles, really.

Even worse, there's been no update or comment since then.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:57 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

So, basically, the asterovape fallacy found on two different sites comes from the same dishonest source.

Yes, Young should haev double checked the data. What's saddening is that apparently, no one disputed the claim!
It tells long about the honesty of certain persons from those SW circles, really.

Even worse, there's been no update or comment since then.

The reason there has been little or no updating on his site is because Brian became busy with other things, and certain people who maintain his website now on SDN have no interest in making a correction that would have potentially damaging effects on TL firepower.
-Mike

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Post by Cock_Knocker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:26 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: And of course, on Poe's WMD page, in that chapter about asteroids and A-holes (please notice the irony),Mr. Poe, just like his cousin Young did years ago, literally invents asteroids.
The method?
Point at a glowing burst of flak and shout vaporized asteroid!
Sure. How obvious! Maybe the asteroids were cloaked before getting hit I suppose. Natural cloaking tech found in asteroid fields. Someone must harvest that! Quick!
If you would, please show, with pictures if possible, exactly where I "invented" any vaporized asteroids on the "Asteroids and A-Holes" section.

This should be fun.

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:47 am

Cock_Knocker wrote:If you would, please show, with pictures if possible, exactly where I "invented" any vaporized asteroids on the "Asteroids and A-Holes" section.

This should be fun.
The first three pictures under the header "Asteroids and A-Holes."? With Slave-1 chasing Kenobi's Starfighter?

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Post by Cock_Knocker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:54 am

l33telboi wrote:The first three pictures under the header "Asteroids and A-Holes."? With Slave-1 chasing Kenobi's Starfighter?
I thought he was talking about the scenes in TESB?

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Post by l33telboi » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:04 am

Cock_Knocker wrote:I thought he was talking about the scenes in TESB?
And I thought he was talking about the Slave-1 chase. Does it matter? He said there are invented asteroids on your page and there is.

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Post by Cock_Knocker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:15 pm

l33telboi wrote:And I thought he was talking about the Slave-1 chase. Does it matter? He said there are invented asteroids on your page and there is.
Ah, ok. If you're so sure about it, it must be true. I almost forgot which board I was on, and who I was replying to.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:30 pm

Less sarcasm and more material, please.

Would any of you mind providing a direct link? I'm having a little trouble finding the images in question.

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Post by l33telboi » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:32 pm

I find it hard to understand why someone would go through all the trouble of doing scalings of non-existant asteroids. You'd have to realize that anyone who knows anything about the movies will immedietly see the problem, and you know that a person after seeing the problem would consider the your credibility to be virtually non-existant afterwards. But I find it even harder to understand how someone could seriously sit there and try to say that those are indeed asteroids even after the error is pointed out.

In any case, here's the link.
Last edited by l33telboi on Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:53 pm

Here's the link to the TL Commentaries firepower page:


http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html


It's the series of images with the Falcon being chased out of the astreroid field by the Avenger about midway down the page. Those are flack bursts, not asteroids being vaporized.
-Mike

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Post by Cock_Knocker » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:03 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Less sarcasm and more material, please.
Amazing how you let little quips and snipes go by, but only bring out the nanny ruler to rap wrists after I post!

Glad I'm here, posting on a non-biased web board!

BTW, littlboi, (or whatever the hell your name is) I'll "update" my pages with Darkstar's findings as soon as Mike updates his with Magical Chain Reactions. Ok?

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Post by Praeothmin » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:28 pm

Amazing how you let little quips and snipes go by, but only bring out the nanny ruler to rap wrists after I post!
Which could also be because he only read the quips and snipes after you've posted.
And, to me, the comment seems to apply to pretty much everyone that posted before, not just you.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:51 pm

FYI, that was not the first gentle admonishment to all parties involved to cool down in a thread split from the SDN thread.
Cock_Knocker wrote:BTW, littlboi, (or whatever the hell your name is)
Now this is quite clearly rude. You should take this as a direct warning to you specifically.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:28 pm

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: And of course, on Poe's WMD page, in that chapter about asteroids and A-holes (please notice the irony),Mr. Poe, just like his cousin Young did years ago, literally invents asteroids.
The method?
Point at a glowing burst of flak and shout vaporized asteroid!
Sure. How obvious! Maybe the asteroids were cloaked before getting hit I suppose. Natural cloaking tech found in asteroid fields. Someone must harvest that! Quick!
If you would, please show, with pictures if possible, exactly where I "invented" any vaporized asteroids on the "Asteroids and A-Holes" section.

This should be fun.
Although I was talking about your site, and also referecing Young's work, now hosted on Wong's site, the problem is the same, since you're behind those stills.

>>> Why don't you prove the existence of these asteroids shortly before they supposedly got vaporized, for both films? <<<

Here's what I think about the TL commentaries - Firepower. 2/5 down the page, we can see and read the following:

_______________________________________________________________________________


Image
In this image, both the Falcon and the asteroid are 18 pixels in length. In the next frame, the white-hot material of the asteroid expands. The Falcon appears to be partially visible between the camera and the white glow. This suggests that the asteroid is slightly more distant than the Falcon. Thus, it is more than 40 meters in diameter. It would have a mass of at least 260 million kilograms, and would require at least 2000 terajoules to vaporise. The bolt carried at least 30,000 terawatts of firepower with its 1/15 second duration.
Image
This image is from the same scene, a few frames earlier. The asteroid must be in the path of the Avenger, or it would have been left untouched. Thus, it is closer to the Falcon than it is to the camera. I measured it at about 24 pixels in diameter, almost exactly twice that of the Falcon at about 12. If the Falcon is 53 meters long, then the asteroid must be on the order of 100 meters in diameter. This would require over 31,000 terajoules to vaporise. If the duration of the bolt is 1/15 second, then its energy is delivered at a rate of at least 465,000 terawatts.

If a more conservative Falcon length of 40 meters is used, as above, then the asteroid must be around 80 meters in diameter. It would require at least 16,000 terajoules for vaporisation. The bolt's energy would be delivered at a rate of at least 240,000 terawatts. This bolt was fired from a small cannon on the nose of the ship. When viewing the entire length of the ship, it is impossible to determine that this cannon even exists. It is likely an anti-starfighter cannon.

Some would argue that the Falcon is only 26.7 meters long, as West End Games sourcebooks state. In this case, the asteroid was at least 50 meters in diameter, and required a lower limit of 3900 terajoules for vaporisation. The energy was delivered at a rate of at least 58,500 terawatts. Since these vaporisation calculations are bare-minimum, and turbolaser bolts perform this in eye-blinking time, I can say with certainty that turbolaser cannons are at least several times this powerful.

If anyone wishes to debate the scaling and state that the asteroid is closer to the camera, I challenge them to watch the second asteroid scene frame-by-frame backward. The bolt was obviously traveling forward, and not in the direction of the camera to any visible degree.
It's quite interesting to see that apparently, Young was ready to challenge anyone who'd like to rebute his claims, on the basis of an analysis of the video medium, frame by frame, when strangely, he couldn't get any stills from it on his own, since apparently someone else had to forward him those precious caps (Wayne Poe).

In a way or another, this would have been quite funny, to say the least.


Image
This is a later scene. The Falcon is leaving the asteroid field, and the Star Destroyer behind is about to. The Falcon is 18 pixels wide, and the more distant asteroid (the large-sized bolt came from the dorsal surface of the ship, and was fired in a starboard direction - not in a ventral direction) is 27 pixels in diameter. Thus, the asteroid is more than 60 meters in diameter. This asteroid would require at least 6760 terajoules to vaporise. This asteroid was vaporised as easily as any of the others. Thus, this bolt carried much more energy, probably many times more (6700 terajoules would take some time to vaporise the asteroid, this one took a fraction of a second). This can thus be set as a lower limit on the energy delivered by a long TL bolt. If the bolt's duration is 1/15 second, then it carried well over 100,000 terawatts of firepower.

Given the direction this bolt was traveling, it could not have come from the heavy dorsal batteries. It had to have been fired by the ship's more mundane batteries.
Image
Falcon is 21 pixels wide, asteroid is 24. Thus, this more distant asteroid is at least 45.7 meters in diameter. This one would require at least 2900 terajoules to vaporise.
Image
The Falcon is 29 pixels wide, and the asteroid is 26 pixels wide. Thus the asteroid has a lower limit of 36 meters in diameter. Energy required for vaporisation: at least 1450 terajoules.
Image
The Falcon is 57 pixels wide, and the asteroid is 30 pixels in diameter. It is much more distant than the Falcon, and has a lower limit of 21 meters in diameter. This one would require at least 290 terajoules for vaporisation.
Image
The Falcon is 66 pixels in diameter, and the asteroid is 22 pixels in diameter, making it at least 13 meters in diameter. At least 65 terajoules would be needed to vaporise this one. The last stages of vaporisation of the asteroid in the image next door (to the left) is seen as well.
Young didn't even realize that those two latest shots may be separated by, what? A couple of frames at best?
And yet, he didn't blink when claiming the existence of an asteroid that couldn't be identified over the dust filled background!

The conclusion:

Thus, the asteroids were at least 13 meters in diameter, and some were at least 60 meters in diameter, and were all vaporised in a fraction of a second by a single shot. The largest asteroid scaled here appeared to be vaporised by a long bolt, and came from an area of the ship where there are no heavy cannons. Turbolaser firepower easily exceeds 6700 terajoules per shot, even from medium-sized cannons (the heavy batteries must have much more firepower).
_______________________________________________________________________________


I remember, at SB.com, certain persons tried to defend those remarkable claims by saying that, conveniently, in some of the pics I posted, the asteroids were deep black, and on others - the ones where the ISD is in the background (while the MF rushes towards the camera) and where the explosions are stacked upon the ISD's silhouette - the asteroids in those cases were ice asteroids, thus near white, and impossible to see in contrast to the imperial's ship white hull.

Word. :|

Mind you, my main problem has never been with the calculations, but with the premise, the basic so called evidence upon which those calculations relied. I'm focusing on a portion of this page that is entirely flawed, because of particular "errors" (edited for politeness' sake), brought years later by the same person, in order to give the Slave-I's guns a level of firepower which she does not have.
Considering that when real asteroids are really hit, they are not vaporized at all, not even half vaporized, it becomes clear why the concept of flakburst has become the absolute evil of those who fancy claiming improbable yields for Star Wars.

There are other points to argue on, but this thread is simply there to look at what's behind those false asteroid vaporization claims.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Wed May 02, 2007 4:44 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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