Massive Update To Karen Traviss Database

[Praeothmin]

Stower agrees in "Shatterpoint" that there were 1200000 clones in Grand army. Note:
1. 2 brigades conquer 3 Utapaus
2. mostlyt's NOT insurgent war, but liberating planets from Separatists. In Iraq, USA only needed 40000 soldiers in destroying iraqi military.

Well, let's play the "proportions" game, shall we?
1 200 000 divided by 40 000, equals 30. So the "official" or canon numbers say that only 30 times the USA invasion forces in Iraq (a very small country) was sufficient to control an entire planet?

And you still think those numbers are logical?
There are 300 million living in the USA, and maybe what, 5 to 8 million in Iraq?

That means that the Republic, the entitiy that warred with only 1.2 million clones, would count what, 30 times that number, or 9 billion people, total?

I'm not arguing the canonnicity of the numbers, just their logic...

[Mr. Oragahn]

3 million might seem low, but do we know the size of the galaxy she's working with? In the SWG size thread, there's EU evidence for it being over 100,000 to as small as about a 1,000 LYs across.

Yes, but the US currently have over 170 000 troups right now in Iraq, and that the Clone Army was created to fight of the Separatists' Army, comprising over 10 000 systems.
It's like the US sending 1 soldier to fight in Iraq, against the one Iraqi insurgent send to defeat him.
That's ridiculou, and totally illogical.

Not all of these systems would need to hold military industrial assets.

They may just be names and funds added to the CIS' allies list.

Plus all depends on the ressources of the other side, and their strategies.

Looking at the efficiency of the droids, from the lame model to the rare roller droids (droidekas), their aim is not fabulous.

A close trooper maybe be able to take down three or four of them (more if they were just mere battledroids, considering their level of incompetence against the Naboo soldiers).

If the Republic managed to keep the advantage it got when attacking the CIS by surprise, it could theoretically overwhelm and surpass the CIS on most occasions.

Plus fear and air superiority, as pointed out by Gstone, will also help here.
And remember that the GA had the Jedi on their side.

Btw, he 10,000 Jedi figure came from the novelisation of TPM I believe.

Probably a frange of them being Masters, others being Knights and all the rest Padawans.

Considering that Masters were seen leading squads, and that Masters can train many Padawans, it would make the number of Masters the smaller percentage.

Now, looking at how many clonetroopers a Master would lead (look at Windu, who would likely be the one leading the largest squad), you may know how many clones could be composing the Grand Army near the beginning of the war.

However, I believe that less and less Jedi would be in control of even more growing legions.

[Enterprise E]

There may be something that could allow a limited number of clones. I agree that three million is a bit low, but I could allow for maybe thirty or three hundred million by the end of the war if this theory is true. Remember in Episode III when Mace Windu sent a batallion of clones to reinforce the Wookies at Kashyyk. What if the clones were like trainers for the military forces of the various worlds that didn't want to join the Confederacy? It could allow for a relatively low number of clonetroopers while still allowing a galactic scale war to be fought.

[Jedi Master Spock]

The tricky parts are this:

One the one hand, the Jedi are in personal command of the clones. There are around 10,000 Jedi, which would sharply limit the size of the Grand Army. It is, IMO, the problem of officer staff that led Karen Traviss to her ultimate conclusion to the size of the GAR.

Of course, ROTS is a little more flexible than her TO&E; Anakin and Obi-Wan have two brigades at their disposal between them.

If your typical Jedi gets put in charge of 3,000 clonetroopers, that's ten times the size of the GAR there; however, Karen Traviss worked from the assumption that Jedi are both captains and generals, meaning that you have Jedi in command of every company and larger sized unit.

There's also the issue of the sector governors' garrisons, which increase substantially the requirements for clonetroopers. There's nothing in the movie to suggest that the governors' troops are under Jedi command, IIRC.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Praeothmin here are some numbers I got from wikipedia so feel free to use them. There are 26 million people in Iraq. There are 1.4 million active members of the US armed forces, and 2.7 million total. All of these numbers are circa 2005.

As for not seeing large numbers of troops in a war film, go watch Flags of Our Fathers, (I think Saving Private Ryan has a seen like this also, but I'm not sure) both the fleet in formation scene and when they are in the landing craft heading toward the shore, we do see thousands of soldiers, and we are also told the number of troops in the engagement on both sides.

I'm not convinced about the number of Jedi being 10,000 at the begining of the Clone War. In AotC, when Yoda goes to Kamino to get the clones he tells Mace Windu to take what Jedi they have left and go to Geonosis. There weren't very many Jedi that went, and most of them died. I'm not saying that the after Geonosis the entirety of the Jedi order was 20 people, afterall Windu probably only took fully trained Jedi, that were on Coruscant, or could rendezvous with them in time at Geonosis (which is on the other side of the galaxy). My point is that I don't think most of the 10,000 Jedi mentioned were killed in order 66.

I actually think that the term "Grand Army of the Republic" is a misnomer, they seem much more like the (U.S.) Marine Corps to me. There aren't very many of them, they have and operate their own ships, and pilot their own fighters. I think the rest of the Republic's military (yes, I think 3,000,000 is too little to fight a galactic war with) is composed of small, regional armys, militias, and navys from sectors in the Republic. Most of these would be substantially better equipped and manned than the Naboo defense force, but are also inferior to the GAR.

[Praeothmin]

As for not seeing large numbers of troops in a war film, go watch Flags of Our Fathers, (I think Saving Private Ryan has a seen like this also, but I'm not sure) both the fleet in formation scene and when they are in the landing craft heading toward the shore, we do see thousands of soldiers, and we are also told the number of troops in the engagement on both sides.

I haven't seen "Flags of our Fathers", but I intend to... :)
As for "Saving Matt Damon...err, Private Ryan", we do see a big engagement at the beginning of the movie, and maybe, maybe we see what could approach a couple thousand soldiers on the beach, but it still wasn't the entirety of the forces present.
And that's basically my point.

In AotC, when Yoda goes to Kamino to get the clones he tells Mace Windu to take what Jedi they have left and go to Geonosis.

Well, he could've meant the Jedi that were available at the moment, the ones that were, as you said, capable of getting to Geonosis in the time frame they had.

I actually think that the term "Grand Army of the Republic" is a misnomer, they seem much more like the (U.S.) Marine Corps to me. There aren't very many of them, they have and operate their own ships, and pilot their own fighters. I think the rest of the Republic's military (yes, I think 3,000,000 is too little to fight a galactic war with) is composed of small, regional armys, militias, and navys from sectors in the Republic. Most of these would be substantially better equipped and manned than the Naboo defense force, but are also inferior to the GAR.

Well, if that was the case, then I would have a lot less trouble accepting the 3 million Clone Trooper numbers.
And who knows, maybe the name "Grand Army of the Republic" is the equivalent of the "Marines".

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Both Flags of Our Fathers and Letters From Iwo Jima are excellent movies, and the island bombardment is probably the coolest event from a visual standpoint I have ever seen in a war film. I forgot, we also see around a thousand paratroopers during the day drop in Band of Brothers (probably the entire 506th and maybe some other elements of the 101st airborne).

Well, he could've meant the Jedi that were available at the moment, the ones that were, as you said, capable of getting to Geonosis in the time frame they had.

Still, a bring everyone available order that has a 1 in 50 attendence is pretty sad; therefore, there are either more Jedi than we see at Geonosis, or less Jedi in the order.

[SailorSaturn13]

Well, let's play the "proportions" game, shall we?
1 200 000 divided by 40 000, equals 30. So the "official" or canon numbers say that only 30 times the USA invasion forces in Iraq (a very small country) was sufficient to control an entire planet?

And you still think those numbers are logical?
There are 300 million living in the USA, and maybe what, 5 to 8 million in Iraq?

That means that the Republic, the entitiy that warred with only 1.2 million clones, would count what, 30 times that number, or 9 billion people, total?

I'm not arguing the canonnicity of the numbers, just their logic...

Iraq has 25 million people. Anu you are thingking SW planets have more. Based on HUMAN planets, Alderaan probably has less ("millions" in ANH),biggest core worlds also have a couple of millions each,, others have maybe haundreds of thousands, and overwhelming majority - even less. Sernpidal had 20000.

And yes local troops are more numerous. GAR provides air suppurt and heavy guns.

[Who is like God arbour]

I think, we have not seen many "inhabited" planets [or moons] in the Star Wars movies:

• Naboo
  Tatoine
  Coruscant
  Kamino
  Geonosis
  Utapau
  Kashyyyk
  Mustafar
  Alderaan
  Yavin
  Hoth
  Dagobah
  Bespin
  Endor

But I think, it is noteworthy, that all these planets (and moons) but Coruscant seemed - at least to me - only sparsely populated.
Likewise some of the planets, which was shortly shown, as the Jedis were killed by the clone troopers.
There can't be any serious doubt, that in Star Wars, there are also high populated planets like Coruscant. But the proportion in which sparsely populated planets (or moons) were shown, even from independent races (Naboo, Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau, Kashyyyk, Alderan and even Endor) and not only colonised planets, one would have to assume, that the most planets in the Star Wars Galaxy are such sparsely populated planets (or moons).

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

To make another Earth comparison if I may, the largest population centers on Earth each represent around .3% of the planet's population. Given the size of the senate I think it is reasonable to assume a similar, if not greater percentage of the Republican and later Imperial citizenry lives on Coruscant.

[Praeothmin]

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:

To make another Earth comparison if I may, the largest population centers on Earth each represent around .3% of the planet's population. Given the size of the senate I think it is reasonable to assume a similar, if not greater percentage of the Republican and later Imperial citizenry lives on Coruscant.

Which would give us a total population for the Republic, if we estimate Coruscant as equivalent in population to Earth (which it doesn't seem to be, it seems even more important...), of 9 billion divided by 0.03 = 300 billion individuals.

There are almost 3 million soldiers in the US.
Around 1% of the total population.
So 1% of 300 billion would mean that the republic would probably have around 3 billion soldiers?

I know these numbers are loosely thrown toghether, but they do give us a rough idea of the total population in the Republic if we use an Earth analogy, and they do tell us that a mere 3 million Clones, unless they are considered as very special forces, is too small a number for a true Army.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:

Praeothmin here are some numbers I got from wikipedia so feel free to use them. There are 26 million people in Iraq. There are 1.4 million active members of the US armed forces, and 2.7 million total. All of these numbers are circa 2005.

Thanks, I should've checked, and not estimated... :)

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

If we are going to do a rough population estimate, then we should at least do it correctly. First, Earth has about 6.5 billion people, not 9 billion. Second the figure was 0.3% not 3% (largest population centers on Earth have around 20 million not 200 million residents). That gives you around 2.1 trillion assuming Coruscant has 6.5 billion people (almost certainly a false assumption) and that Coruscant is the equvilent to Tokyo, Mexico City, etc. in terms of population (again, almost certainly a false assumption). Rough estimate, I'd say Coruscant has 1 trillion people and represents 2% of the population of the Republic which means 50 trillion citizens of the Republic.

I know these numbers are loosely thrown together, but they do give us a rough idea of the total population in the Republic if we use an Earth analogy, and they do tell us that a mere 3 million Clones, unless they are considered as very special forces, is too small a number for a true Army.

Which is why I liken them to the Marines. What makes them special, is the fact that they are the first Federal military unit in a long time, probably a 1000 years. Prior to them, the Republic didn't have a Navy or Army, each system or sector is responsible for maintaining their own defense forces.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Traviss definitely is making the assertion that clonetroopers are something special.

Just bear in mind that by the time of ROTS, it's pretty clear that there are non-clones aside from Jedi in the military, at least in the navy.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Which is a nice twist, because clonetroopers exactly means that, squads of clones.
If there are recruitement campaigns all over the pro-republic galaxy by the time of ROTS, then we're back to the old debate about what the stormtroopers are, clones or not clones, which is generally settled by saying that it's both.

Clonetroopers are genetically engineered and trained from their earliest years. That would make them better in comparison to recruits.

So it could indeed be that the clonetroopers are special, and that the vast rest of the GAR is made of normal humans.

[Praeothmin]

If we are going to do a rough population estimate, then we should at least do it correctly. First, Earth has about 6.5 billion people, not 9 billion. Second the figure was 0.3% not 3% (largest population centers on Earth have around 20 million not 200 million residents). That gives you around 2.1 trillion assuming Coruscant has 6.5 billion people (almost certainly a false assumption) and that Coruscant is the equvilent to Tokyo, Mexico City, etc. in terms of population (again, almost certainly a false assumption). Rough estimate, I'd say Coruscant has 1 trillion people and represents 2% of the population of the Republic which means 50 trillion citizens of the Republic.

This will teach me to post rapidly from work... :)