Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Spartans were meant to be super elite troopers for special operations. First to deal with insurgents, and later to deal with the Covenant while Earth was defeated and outnumbered.
Clone troopers aren't these guys. They're some of the better soldiers out there, but they're still expandable. More precisely, they're the best of the expandable niche.
We see things differently here. I see the Clones getting the most dangerous missions, and being sent to bale-out the Republic regulars.
ROTS novelization wrote: Sophisticated sensor algorithms compressed the combat that sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometers apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame.
Clones are able to fire the ships weapons at nearly the speed of light. They are clearly super-human since the quote is not talking about the bolts being fired. ^_^
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Conjecture, no fact, right?
99 was a badly malformed clone trooper, and there was talk implying 99 was not the worst failure.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/99
From what I recall season 3 episode 1 Domino Squad was nearly recycled for being defective as well.
A DNA sample seems to only be able to make a limited amount of clones before it starts making defective clones
Mr. Oragahn wrote: 1. It's stated very clearly in the movie.
2. It doesn't make them poorer. It guarantees that an order is followed, even if it means a certain level of sacrifice.
Lucas decided that clones would get some personality, although I don't know if the clones we follow in TCWS are rarer ones or the bog standard model.
If it's the former, that's a good thing, but if all clones are supposed to actually show that level of personality and autonomy, it's really disappointing.
The point of clones was really to show how technology could be callously used to produce expandable men in droves, and not being frightened of dying in such a fashion. However, Lucas is really going another route and rejecting the grim dark, to the point where the only objectionable aspect of the clones is that they were grown for war and outside of families, instead of those two aspects plus the whole zombie-horde overall feeling.
Docile things don't fight, or question authority, but the clones do. I just assume someone used the wrong word
Mr. Oragahn wrote: That they're the best troops they have doesn't make them the equivalent of Spartans. I think that is rather obvious.
The clones and the C.D. are the closest thing Star Wars has to Spartans, and they fill the same roles even if C.D. and clones are inferior to even ODST..
Mr. Oragahn wrote: You argued that those as SW were as elite as those of Halo.
Have you changed your mind or are were still in disagreement?
I never claimed that clones or commando droids were anywhere near as capable as even ODST. I have claimed the Spartans, Commando Droids, and Clones fill the same roles in the militaries they are a part of.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: You argued that those as SW were as elite as those of Halo.
Have you changed your mind or are were still in disagreement?
You have misunderstood. I have not been trying to argue the clones or commando droids are as capable or effective or well equipted as Spartan 2/3s or even ODST. I have been try to argue that the clones in Star Wars fill the same role in the Republic military as the Spartans and ODST do in the UNSC military
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Interesting. How old was that clone though?
Am I correct in thinking candidates for the Spartan 2 program were kidnaped before they reach puberty? If I am correct then I would guess the flash clone was 5 to 10 years old at least,, but it is hard to tell given we are talking about pen and ink.
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daisies ... coming.png
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Daisy-023
I would assume Daisy-023's flash clone surviving was an anomaly even if the clone was wheelchair bound.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: In Halo it's so advanced that it requires modifying the body to use it.
You need body modifications to use the armor used by Spartans to its full potential in Halo, but there are a number of ways that same armor could be modified for normal humans like we do in the real world with fighters, and then there is the prototype armor that could easily be used by normal humans.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: We can both select evidence going at our advantage.
It begs remembering that the Rebels, by virtue of their unique tactics, weren't meant to have any major fleet at all.
Not to say that according to the EU, the initial rebel fleet comprised several different ships including a sister ship to the Invisible Hand. The Rebels even had seized control of a Trade Federation battleship and carried more than five hundred X-wings in it.
I don't follow the EU much, and it is self contradictory. The only numbers that matter for Star Wars have always been in G and T levels of canon.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: No because the 1 million extra were soon finished. Further millions could be like several months away from completion, or more. It was never said that the 200,000 first clones all came from the same factory. They could have easily been the initial fraction of several factories from various locations on Kamino. Same for the extra million.
In fact, if you picture a huge wave that's the sum of all factories' outputs, the beginning of the wave would be the first 200,000 clones, then further into the wave you'd get the 1 million, with the rest of the production wave to come.
They stated they had 200,000 clones ready, and a million more on the way. They make clones as ordered, and a manufacturer only produce about the number ordered by a customer.
200,000 soldiers was considered a huge army.
EU sources claim a total of 3,000,000 clones.
60,000 clones on a medical station is a sizable part of the army
We know the Republic was thinking of purchasing five million more clones, and to them that was an insanely huge number. That kind of puts a cap on how many clones were purchased.
We know Jedi only command 2 or 3 battalions to take a vital planet like Umbara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battalion
Given the importance of super-weapons in Star Wars small numbers fit.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: That said, there were many visions to assemble back in the old days.
I just find the new Star Wars not very subtle, all in your face, too flashy without being awesome enough, and lacking in real depth.
It's shame that AOTC wasn't TESB's alter ego, put into action and scripted by more competent people than just Lucas.
Star Wars: The Clone Wars CGI series is what Episodes 2 and 3 should have been.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: From an OT+TPM perspective, not really.
I even thought that Obi-Wan was supposed to be an odd-ball, not exactly your everyday general, that he'd have been put in charge of soldiers because of some spectacular leading abilities, and worked along other baseline human generals.
Globally, I expected the amount of Jedi troop commanders to be extremely law. In fact, Lucas missed a great opportunity here to flesh out the Jedi Order by having some of them, largely influenced by Qui-Gon's toeing-the-line stance, decide to join the war by being more active, a role allowed by the Jedi Order's codex but frowned upon behind the curtains.
Therefore, Obi-Wan could have been made commander of clones, but after requesting that his clones be fully independent and behave like normal humans, as to turn them into a more versatile and qualified small tactical unit.
The vast rest of the clone legions would have been led by typical Coruscanti commanders, sending millions of them to oversee several sectors in turmoil.
Well what we see fits with pretty much every Star Wars comic I recall reading as far as how Jedi lead armies, but your idea is interesting.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I'd rather have few people, if they're supposed to be military goons, being given better tech so to have them be true elite soldiers surpassing the oceans of clone troopers... instead of troopers who can't hit shit 20 meters ahead when bracing themselves against crates.
Sadly Clone troopers do have the best gear of all the militaries in Star Wars.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Yet they're nothing spectacular. They don't master special combat techniques, they get gunned down rather stupidly, do some silly charges at Christophsis, etc.
I don't know what their training program consisted of but I'd wager that it contained about 90% of teletubbies.
The silly charges may be because of that engineered to be docile nonsense. Follow orders even if they are really bad.
We actually see the clone trooper training in season 3 Episode 1 "Clone Cadets". maybe it is the helmets that cause the problem?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: There was another side. Only the Sith and Fett apparently knew what was going on both sides. That's like three people from a huge amount of leaders on both sides who should have been completely dumbfounded by the complete discrepancies in their own armies.
Palpatine more or less directly controls the Republic forces, and he controls the the head of the CIS(Count Dooku) and the CIS's top general General Grievous. That means Palpatine knew what both sides were doing, and could tell both sides what to do.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Which, among other things like better management of characters, made TESB stellar.
The stormtroopers weren't exactly total douches like in ANH or, worst, ROTJ.
Rebels did face a powerful foe and, considering the level of firepower all sides get in SW, did a fair job with what they had. Globally they preferred flee instead of wasting good units and perhaps missiles against ground units when it would have been totally useless anyway, considering the Death Squadron's presence.
The battle of Hoth was actually PIS in favor of the Empire, and that is no better then PIS in favor of the Rebels. A few X-Wings firing a couple of proton torpedos at the AT-AT
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Perhaps, but then what's the point of doing Clone Wars if you don't really get to do what people honestly expected to get. Those were dark times after all, yet I don't see much darkness at all. There are less deaths in the whole of TCWS than civilian casualties in Irak alone from the second war.
If Lucas wanted to avoid the brutality of war, all he had to do was to focus on the action happening on the rim of the major war theaters.
In the end, I have no real interest into an universe that is decidedly smited by his own creator who enjoys watching two sides of dumbed down soldiers trying to hit each other.
I expect Lucas to edit TPM so as to make pixie dust burst out of Maul as he get cut into halves by Obi-Wan.
People are burnt alive, electrocuted, stabbed, shot, and so on on screen. We see a bleep load of people die, and more implied. You're just not happy because they want to get the TV equivalent of a PG-13 rating.
Star Wars was heavily inspired by shows like Flash Gordan remember
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If you miss the reference, please rewatch the first season of TCWS (I know, the pain). My point should be clearer after that. ;)
I'm not sure where I could watch season 1 at this time? Could you please explain what you mean?
The only real flaw with B-1s seems to be programing given what they are meant to be.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Yeah and thus far them bots have the brains of a can o' beans.
CAN YOU IMAGINE TEH POTENTIAL WITH SW'S ASTROMECH AI????!!!1!!
They would rule the world provided they could deal with doors and stares.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Aw com'on, it's slow as shit. If it cannot count on mobility, then it should have plenty of armour, especially for vehicles which can actually lift their own weight along the sides of a steep cliff.
ANAT-TE isn't actually a tank, but I suppose you are correct in that AT-TE could use a bit more armor. What has taken an AT-TE down beside CIS tanks?
One does have to wonder why an AT-TE can't fly?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: When you look at the placement of the cannons on the Malevolence and their accuracy, there were plenty of dead angles to exploit to reach the bridge. Shit, merely firing the missiles from that distance should have worked, unless plot suddenly decided that they'd get shot down.
They said they had to do it that way, and the Jedi did not think the Clones could make it to the bridge without at least one more clone being shot down.
No one thought to fire the missiles from farther away.
THey never explain why that flight path needed to be taken. It's like the trench run on the Death star. I'd assume it has to do with some odd quirk in shield design.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Going by Halo or Halo Wars, those exposed bridge house essential personnel and even important systems. They should be nothing but auxiliary observation booths during cruise.
Few SF universes get that right. New Battlestar Galactica is one of them. The Asgard and Wraith from Stargate also had encased control bridges (and obviously plenty of redundancy systems).
Some settings it doesn't really matter where things are because if the shield go down you're screwed, and some one direct hit and you're dead.
