SW Wanker Fanbois at it again at SBC...

[Praeothmin]

Let the wank be read, and weep, my fellows...


Once again, we see the bullshit "but the arrow hit the body glove" argument, and the "but the armor in the EU books can tank Sand people bullets", one person even saying the Sand People weapons are small gauss rifles...
Yeah, right...

:)

[Mr. Oragahn]

I still have the pictures of those tall giant but primitive xenos throwing their wood and stone spears at the stormtroopers and impaling them, if needs be.
I don't recall the muzzle velocity of Tusken rifles to be impressive either. In TPM, the speed can be observed to fall below 1 or 2 meters per frame, at 25 fps! Some random .45 round will get you a muzzle velocity generally above 300 m/s.

On the other hand, you have the Haloties praising Mastah Handkerchief!!!
Like, you know, "[it's] pretty much accepted at this point where Mark VI's shields are in range of [megajoule] strength."
I suppose low end MJ, because I don't recall any evidence of the Mjolnir VI suit withstand direct tank shots. Like, you know, from a sabot for example.

Not sure where the smell of wank comes from.

[Mike DiCenso]

Sigh. Round and round in circles it goes...
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

That said, a suit's shield would logically react completely differently depending on the way energy was spread over it.

[Lucky]

I still have the pictures of those tall giant but primitive xenos throwing their wood and stone spears at the stormtroopers and impaling them, if needs be.
I don't recall the muzzle velocity of Tusken rifles to be impressive either. In TPM, the speed can be observed to fall below 1 or 2 meters per frame, at 25 fps! Some random .45 round will get you a muzzle velocity generally above 300 m/s.

E-11s eject shell casings sometimes at least.
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/4/4b/Star ... rling3.jpg
_____
You mean the spear in the scene at 0:15 in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wmUipQw ... re=related
_____
Any idea as to what the prop gun used for the Tusken rifles is?

On the other hand, you have the Haloties praising Mastah Handkerchief!!!
Like, you know, "[it's] pretty much accepted at this point where Mark VI's shields are in range of [megajoule] strength."
I suppose low end MJ, because I don't recall any evidence of the Mjolnir VI suit withstand direct tank shots. Like, you know, from a sabot for example.

Not sure where the smell of wank comes from.

Given the clones are the Spartan 2/3 equivalent in Star Wars, and they are just men in unreliable armor, something like a Spartan in a Mjolnir VI suit will be a monster on the battle field.

[Mr. Oragahn]

E-11s eject shell casings sometimes at least.
http://www.imfdb.org/w/images/4/4b/Star ... rling3.jpg

You can disregard that, it's not meant to happen.

You mean the spear in the scene at 0:15 in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wmUipQw ... re=related

That's new. Just confirms the piss poor strength of those armours. Nothing changed much when the stormtrooper armours were designed. They may be good enough against thermal energies, which most people use in SW, but they're clearly too plastic against kinetic penetrators.

Any idea as to what the prop gun used for the Tusken rifles is?

Nope, but someone must have already looked into that on Internet!

On the other hand, you have the Haloties praising Mastah Handkerchief!!!
Like, you know, "[it's] pretty much accepted at this point where Mark VI's shields are in range of [megajoule] strength."
I suppose low end MJ, because I don't recall any evidence of the Mjolnir VI suit withstand direct tank shots. Like, you know, from a sabot for example.

Not sure where the smell of wank comes from.

Given the clones are the Spartan 2/3 equivalent in Star Wars, and they are just men in unreliable armor, something like a Spartan in a Mjolnir VI suit will be a monster on the battle field.

I didn't understand the meaning of the underlined part.

[Lucky]

You can disregard that, it's not meant to happen.

It's still fun to point things like that out to certain people who take visuals way too seriously, and I never noticed it before.

That's new. Just confirms the piss poor strength of those armours. Nothing changed much when the stormtrooper armours were designed. They may be good enough against thermal energies, which most people use in SW, but they're clearly too plastic against kinetic penetrators.

I never understood why anyone would assume armor designed to deal with energy weapons would be good against physical impacts.

Nope, but someone must have already looked into that on Internet!

Well, I don't know where the information is.

It's not here
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Star_Wars

Or here
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tusken_Cycler_Rifle

This I have no idea how to verify
http://www.studiocreations.com/howto/tu ... rifle.html

I didn't understand the meaning of the underlined part.

The clones are suppose to be elite warriors trained to be the best of the best, and engineered from the best genetic stock around.

The Spartan 2 and 3 are suppose to be the best of the best, and engineered from the best genetic stock around.

The Spartans have armor that can seemingly take hits from from the weapons the armor was designed to deal with as well as weapons it likely wasn't designed to handle, and have some nice built in sensors.

The Clones have armor that might let them survive a hit or two, and have seemingly no built in sensor systems.

Halo armors offer full NBC protection.

Clone trooper armor offers partial B and C protection.

Basically Halo human military seems to have better training, better elite forces, and better equipment, and would be able to badly bloody any Star Wars ground force at the very least even using the lower end interpretation. It's like Halo has an army of General Greious.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Spartans were meant to be super elite troopers for special operations. First to deal with insurgents, and later to deal with the Covenant while Earth was defeated and outnumbered.
Clone troopers aren't these guys. They're some of the better soldiers out there, but they're still expandable. More precisely, they're the best of the expandable niche.
As for the sensors, although some EU sources give them all belts and whistles, in TCWS they don't seem to have much going on for them aside from, err... what? Radio?
There's no doubt that if SW wanted to make elite warriors, they could come with suits that would crap on anything the UNSC ever pulled. Power armour with holofields, shields, some form of internal repair and integrated bacta, complete sensor suits, real solid hulls, antigravity, etc. It would really be a juggernaut pissing on Master Chief.

[Lucky]

Spartans were meant to be super elite troopers for special operations. First to deal with insurgents, and later to deal with the Covenant while Earth was defeated and outnumbered.

Sounds like clones.

Clone troopers aren't these guys. They're some of the better soldiers out there, but they're still expandable. More precisely, they're the best of the expandable niche.

Given the fact that 5,000,000 would bankrupt the Republic, I don't think Clones are expendable troops. They are the elite of the Republic's forces.

The clones are generally these guys:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Marine_Corps

The Clones cost as much as these guys, and are meant to be these guys:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Orbital_Drop_Shock_Trooper
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Program
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-III_Program

Clones seemingly cost more then ODST, Spartan 1s and Spartan 2s combined, or maybe I'm just thinking the UNSC military is larger then it is.

As for the sensors, although some EU sources give them all belts and whistles, in TCWS they don't seem to have much going on for them aside from, err... what? Radio?

The communicators are built into the wrist, right?

Honestly i don't see why Clones don't have sensors built into their helmets given some of these sensors are the size of a pack of chewing gum, a pez-machine, or Zippo lighter. It would sure beat those nearly useless head lamps, but then it is canon that weapon and armor designers in Star Wars actively build flaws in the weapons and armor.

Power armour with holofields, shields, some form of internal repair and integrated bacta, complete sensor suits, real solid hulls, antigravity, etc. It would really be a juggernaut pissing on Master Chief.

It would be bleeping huge however. It's called the Phase 3 Dark Trooper.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Phase_III_dark_trooper
(^_^)A human is able to destroy it by punching it enough times in the game. I'm sure Spartan-1337 could take several out in one punch. (^_^.)

Halo already proved they can do that as well.
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/HRUNTING/YGG ... nse_System

[Mr. Oragahn]

Spartans were meant to be super elite troopers for special operations. First to deal with insurgents, and later to deal with the Covenant while Earth was defeated and outnumbered.

Sounds like clones.

They're not produced in large quantities though.

Clone troopers aren't these guys. They're some of the better soldiers out there, but they're still expandable. More precisely, they're the best of the expandable niche.

Given the fact that 5,000,000 would bankrupt the Republic, I don't think Clones are expendable troops. They are the elite of the Republic's forces.

Yeah, that's just so weird. The movie really gave the audience the idea that they were expandable and produced in large industrial quantities, and the Kaminoans treated them with gallons of callousness, yet they're super duper expensive so in fact they're not that much expandable.
I must say that not only I felt cheated when Lucas decided that clone would fight droids instead of other clones, but he's also considerably shortening the scope of this war.

The clones are generally these guys:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/UNSC_Marine_Corps

The Clones cost as much as these guys, and are meant to be these guys:
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Orbital_Drop_Shock_Trooper
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-II_Program
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-III_Program

Clones seemingly cost more then ODST, Spartan 1s and Spartan 2s combined, or maybe I'm just thinking the UNSC military is larger then it is.

Clones are much more meant to be the equivalent of the ODST. They're quick dropped well trained troops, but don't possess super abilities or super armour.
The stupidly prohibitive cost of a few million clones that bankrupts the republic (!!) is completely counter intuitive to the concept of mass produced identity-less clones thrown into the meat grinder of war. People expected WWII to the galactic scale. They get served with something barely approaching the intensity of Vietnam, and has more to do with Irak '91, against enemies so stupid that you can't even take the whole story seriously.
Lucas' vision of his universe and the Clone Wars is really at odds with what fans have grown to believe since ROTJ aired for the first time.

As for the sensors, although some EU sources give them all belts and whistles, in TCWS they don't seem to have much going on for them aside from, err... what? Radio?

The communicators are built into the wrist, right?

Oh yeah, they seem to have them in their wrists. Can you know why I thought they were embedded into their helmets?

Honestly i don't see why Clones don't have sensors built into their helmets given some of these sensors are the size of a pack of chewing gum, a pez-machine, or Zippo lighter. It would sure beat those nearly useless head lamps, but then it is canon that weapon and armor designers in Star Wars actively build flaws in the weapons and armor.

Makes no sense. It fits with the idea that they're under equipped nameless soldiers produced in droves, but then again, the Republic going bankrupt for some millions clones...

[Lucky]

They're not produced in large quantities though.

Correct, but the Clones are suppose to have been genetically engineered to be super-elite unit, trained to fight and kill since birth, and it seems the only thing stopping the UNSC from making a few million Spartans using clones is a lack of good cloning technology.

ODST are still elites, have far better armor then clones, and can be produced in comparable numbers.

Yeah, that's just so weird. The movie really gave the audience the idea that they were expandable and produced in large industrial quantities, and the Kaminoans treated them with gallons of callousness, yet they're super duper expensive so in fact they're not that much expandable.
I must say that not only I felt cheated when Lucas decided that clone would fight droids instead of other clones, but he's also considerably shortening the scope of this war.

I'm not sure what movies you watched, but Star Wars has always been absurdly small scale.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWordersofmagnitude.html

Episode:2 The Kaminoans had made 200,000 clones, and a million on the way..

In Episode 1 we learn there are only something like 10,000 Jedi

The entire war was a false flag operation. The smaller it is the more easily it can be controlled, and things like the Malevolence becomes more important the fewer ships there are.

Clones are much more meant to be the equivalent of the ODST. They're quick dropped well trained troops, but don't possess super abilities or super armour.

What the clones are seemingly meant to be, and what they are are two different things.

The stupidly prohibitive cost of a few million clones that bankrupts the republic (!!) is completely counter intuitive to the concept of mass produced identity-less clones thrown into the meat grinder of war. People expected WWII to the galactic scale. They get served with something barely approaching the intensity of Vietnam, and has more to do with Irak '91, against enemies so stupid that you can't even take the whole story seriously.
Lucas' vision of his universe and the Clone Wars is really at odds with what fans have grown to believe since ROTJ aired for the first time.

Lucas always envisioned small scale conflicts in Star Wars, and the enemies have always been jokes.

You might want to look at this page. The small numbers had always been there.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWordersofmagnitude.html

Oh yeah, they seem to have them in their wrists. Can you know why I thought they were embedded into their helmets?

It would be logical to build a radio into a helmet?

Makes no sense. It fits with the idea that they're under equipped nameless soldiers produced in droves, but then again, the Republic going bankrupt for some millions clones...

It is canon however.
A B-1 states it is programed to have bad aim, and then in a later episode R2-D2 reprograms two B-1s, and then they can shoot things suddenly.

A Commando droid answers with "Roger Roger" when it is pretending to be a clone trooper blowing it's cover, and ruining an ambush. in "Rookies"

AT-TE have big glass cockpits on the front of the vehicle that can easily be breached..

You can disable the Malevolence and destroy the Ion cannon at the same time by hitting a tiny connection between the two, and it is not shielded or armored.

The AT-AT has a very limit firing arc, can easily be tripped, and has no armor on it's exposed belly.

AT-ST have so many flaws it funny.

Star Destroyers have all the things needed to run the ship in the pointless bridge tower rather then buried deep in the armored hull.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Correct, but the Clones are suppose to have been genetically engineered to be super-elite unit, trained to fight and kill since birth, and it seems the only thing stopping the UNSC from making a few million Spartans using clones is a lack of good cloning technology.

The process is vastly different. There were countless many failures for the Spartan program.

The only thing I know about clone's DNA is that it makes them more docile. Their physical abilities are those of Jango Fett, a normal human who became good because of experience, not super human abilities.

Clones aren't meant to be the super elite at all. They're made to be good soldiers, perhaps above the average, and obedient. There's nothing beyond that that may be spectacular in their abilities at all.

Heck, I think one of the live action trailers around Halo 3 or Reach featured one soldier getting a shot of blue or red chemicals to enhance his fighting abilities. In TFoR, Hasley's early research already included the following subjects:

1. Carbide ceramic ossification:advanced material grafting onto skeletal structures to make bones virtually unbreakable. Recommended coverage not to exceed 3 percent total bone mass because of significant white blood cell necrosis. Specific risk for pre- and near-postpubescent adolescents: skeletal growth spurts may cause irreparable bone pulverization. See attached case studies.
2.Muscular enhancement injections: protein complex is injected intramuscularly to increase tissue density and decrease lactase recovery time. Risk: 5 percent of test subjects experience a fatal cardiac volume increase.
3. Catalytic thyroid implant:platinum pellet containing human growth hormone catalyst is implanted in the thyroid to boost growth of skeletal and muscle tissues. Risk: rare instances of elephantiasis. Suppressed sexual drive.
4. Occipital capillary reversal:submergence and boosted blood vessel flow beneath the rods and cones of subject’s retina. Produces a marked visual perception increase. Risk: retinal rejection and detachment. Permanent blindness. See attached autopsy reports.
5. Superconducting fibrification of neural dendrites:alteration of bioelectrical nerve transduction to shielded electronic transduction. Three hundred percent increase in subject reflexes. Anecdotal evidence of marked increase in intelligence, memory, and creativity. Risk: significant instances of Parkinson’s disease and Fletcher’s syndrome.

That's strictly going with the enhanced biological side of it, not the suits the Spartans were donned.
Several of these modifications had clearly been implemented into the Spartans.

John 117 had "enhanced musculature" and "metal and ceramic layers" were bonded to his skeleton. He had enhanced speed, strength and senses.
All Spartans were exposed to "experimental surgeries and biochemical augmentations" against all common-sense rules of ethics.

Kaminoan clones are nothing like that.
They're bog standard humans made easier to train and lead, in a galaxy that hasn't seen any really organized public army of that caliber in eons, apparently.

ODST are still elites, have far better armor then clones, and can be produced in comparable numbers.

In theory, if the UNSC had completely done without ethics, they could produce short-lived clones (flash clones), who would live up to two months before degenerating, and they could also flash-transfer memories.
Although the technology is obviously inferior to the Kaminoan one in terms of durability, in theory any training and experience can be transfered, as done for Hasley (although something like twenty cloned brains were lost on twenty one), therefore virtually kept forever.
But, again, that's highly illegal so not going to happen.
Plus the production rate is implied to be very fast, most likely besting Kaminoan repro rates by years, perhaps making it as good as the Spaarti tech.

Yeah, that's just so weird. The movie really gave the audience the idea that they were expandable and produced in large industrial quantities, and the Kaminoans treated them with gallons of callousness, yet they're super duper expensive so in fact they're not that much expandable.
I must say that not only I felt cheated when Lucas decided that clone would fight droids instead of other clones, but he's also considerably shortening the scope of this war.

I'm not sure what movies you watched, but Star Wars has always been absurdly small scale.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWordersofmagnitude.html

Nothing conclusive pre-prequels.
Plus Death Stars, plus droids and ships everywhere, plus a million star systems. And by TPM, before the clones, you'd add Coruscant.
I don't tend to call that small scale.

Episode:2 The Kaminoans had made 200,000 clones, and a million on the way..

With no indication that there weren't many more millions to come but not fully ready yet. The rate of production of a million units wasn't given, at not established as a cap either (since they could multiply by five the quantity from the first batch to the second one, the possibility that even greater numbers could come seemed plausible).
All in all, it was left very vague.

What many people expected with clones is to literally see non-differenciated humans thrown by legions of hundreds of thousands against enemies in equal quantities, and that in many places to begin counting.

In Episode 1 we learn there are only something like 10,000 Jedi

Not a problem at all.
Heck, I think many people were surprised to see that the Jedi would be the only generals used on the grounds actively -- they're literally thrown into the combat zone with minimal protection, which is just too laughable - that said, considering how clonetrooper armour sucks in general, even against the weapons it's supposed to provide protection against...
Not to say that the total amount of generals at a given time, in all branches of the military of a given country such as the US is below 200, and of course not all of them are sent to the battleground. Lowest generals in many countries (around the 1-star level) already are found leading thousands of troops, which is already far more than what we often see in TCWS, who literally packs two generals (Obi-Wan and Anakin) at the head of small units, rarely even a full brigade.

Regardless of the gear the clonetroopers are given, they're not meant to be supermen. Spartans are.
In theory, any clone trooper should be akin to the averaged best ODST you may find, but I didn't hear that ODST recruited tards and whimps, so I'd say they should be pretty even considering the training and initial combat experience (and then it gets way better for the ODSTs).

Dang, I'm sounding like a Haloite.

The entire war was a false flag operation. The smaller it is the more easily it can be controlled, and things like the Malevolence becomes more important the fewer ships there are.

True, keeping it small makes its management simpler.
But there's no reason for the other side not to play by the same numbers, and there's no question for both sides to wonder why the frak are all numbers so capped.

Clones are much more meant to be the equivalent of the ODST. They're quick dropped well trained troops, but don't possess super abilities or super armour.

What the clones are seemingly meant to be, and what they are are two different things.

Yeah, in the end they're even poorer. They don't even get decent armour, not even decent comm gear, and their energy weapons are just not so impressive in terms of accuracy, although they don't have as many problems with limits on ammo.

The stupidly prohibitive cost of a few million clones that bankrupts the republic (!!) is completely counter intuitive to the concept of mass produced identity-less clones thrown into the meat grinder of war. People expected WWII to the galactic scale. They get served with something barely approaching the intensity of Vietnam, and has more to do with Irak '91, against enemies so stupid that you can't even take the whole story seriously.
Lucas' vision of his universe and the Clone Wars is really at odds with what fans have grown to believe since ROTJ aired for the first time.

Lucas always envisioned small scale conflicts in Star Wars, and the enemies have always been jokes.

Yeah, Lucas sucks. A pity people got a taste of good Star Wars with TESB, they thought that would be the staple.

Oh yeah, they seem to have them in their wrists. Can you know why I thought they were embedded into their helmets?

It would be logical to build a radio into a helmet?

In SW's high tech land, yes? If only for the fact that you can talk without having to lower your weapons!

Makes no sense. It fits with the idea that they're under equipped nameless soldiers produced in droves, but then again, the Republic going bankrupt for some millions clones...

It is canon however.
A B-1 states it is programed to have bad aim, and then in a later episode R2-D2 reprograms two B-1s, and then they can shoot things suddenly.

Oh I guess that explains the shitty aim of the clonetroopers seen in TCWS as well. Bad programming.
- Sir, I can't seem to hit anything!
*bang*

A Commando droid answers with "Roger Roger" when it is pretending to be a clone trooper blowing it's cover, and ruining an ambush. in "Rookies"

Yes, they're shite and strangely enough no one noticed the flaw. Oh but I guess that's part of super Sidious' plan.
Arm the fucking astrodroids then!
R2s with M16s. Rise of the bleeping droids. Tadam dam dadam.

AT-TE have big glass cockpits on the front of the vehicle that can easily be breached..

Yes, they're like civilian tractors given weapons. Oblivious to the concept of armour.

You can disable the Malevolence and destroy the Ion cannon at the same time by hitting a tiny connection between the two, and it is not shielded or armored.

Go figure. Notice that despite the lack of shields, the tarts had to come suidically close to strike a hit.

- Sir, we have missiles and the mothership's exposed bridge lies half a kilometer ahead of us, behind batteries that can't hit shit. What should we do?
- Break hard right and aim for the big pancake gun!
- Roger rog.. erm, aye sir!

I don't tend to take TCWS that seriously, it's just too retarded.

The AT-AT has a very limit firing arc, can easily be tripped, and has no armor on it's exposed belly.

It looks MIGHTY!

AT-ST have so many flaws it funny.

They're armoured mutant chickens. Then, when the chickens die, they remove the organs and fuse seats inside.

Star Destroyers have all the things needed to run the ship in the pointless bridge tower rather then buried deep in the armored hull.

Pillar of Autumn's bridge isn't a model of Smart. Actually none of the UNSC ships are smart on that point either. For some reason, they still can make decent infantry though.

[Lucky]

The process is vastly different. There were countless many failures for the Spartan program.

There are an unknown number of failed clones. We know this because of 99. It certainly makes you wonder why only 200,000 clones were ready with a million more on the way in Episode: 2. If the the failure rate was so high that only 200,000 out of a million were not deformed....
_____
Step 1) Spartan 1s were proof of concept.

Step 2) Spartan 2s were the prototypes

Step 3) Spartan 3s are more or less the actual product

In the proof of concept and prototyping stages you expect failures and problems, but Star Wars was already on step three with the clones by the time we see them.

The only thing I know about clone's DNA is that it makes them more docile. Their physical abilities are those of Jango Fett, a normal human who became good because of experience, not super human abilities.

Docile? That doesn't really match with what we see, and would make for a rather poor fighting force.

Clones aren't meant to be the super elite at all. They're made to be good soldiers, perhaps above the average, and obedient. There's nothing beyond that that may be spectacular in their abilities at all.

The Clones are the best troops the Republic has, and are an equal match for Commando Droids. That makes the clones elite units.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BX-series_droid_commando

Heck, I think one of the live action trailers around Halo 3 or Reach featured one soldier getting a shot of blue or red chemicals to enhance his fighting abilities. In TFoR, Hasley's early research already included the following subjects:

That's strictly going with the enhanced biological side of it, not the suits the Spartans were donned.
Several of these modifications had clearly been implemented into the Spartans.

John 117 had "enhanced musculature" and "metal and ceramic layers" were bonded to his skeleton. He had enhanced speed, strength and senses.
All Spartans were exposed to "experimental surgeries and biochemical augmentations" against all common-sense rules of ethics.

Kaminoan clones are nothing like that.
They're bog standard humans made easier to train and lead, in a galaxy that hasn't seen any really organized public army of that caliber in eons, apparently.

It's not my fault the elite warriors of Star Wars aren't as elite as those in Halo.

The cloners did their jobs, and that's it.

In theory, if the UNSC had completely done without ethics, they could produce short-lived clones (flash clones), who would live up to two months before degenerating, and they could also flash-transfer memories.
Although the technology is obviously inferior to the Kaminoan one in terms of durability, in theory any training and experience can be transfered, as done for Hasley (although something like twenty cloned brains were lost on twenty one), therefore virtually kept forever.
But, again, that's highly illegal so not going to happen.
Plus the production rate is implied to be very fast, most likely besting Kaminoan repro rates by years, perhaps making it as good as the Spaarti tech.

Those clones don't always die like they are suppose to you know. Daisy-023 escaped, and met her clone.

A lot of things could be done in theory, but aren't. Power armor should be very common in Star Wars, but no one ever uses it.

Nothing conclusive pre-prequels.
Plus Death Stars, plus droids and ships everywhere, plus a million star systems. And by TPM, before the clones, you'd add Coruscant.
I don't tend to call that small scale.

We see the entire Rebel fleet in ROTJ. The fleet is tiny.

It's more a pattern of small numbers.

With no indication that there weren't many more millions to come but not fully ready yet. The rate of production of a million units wasn't given, at not established as a cap either (since they could multiply by five the quantity from the first batch to the second one, the possibility that even greater numbers could come seemed plausible).
All in all, it was left very vague.

If more then 1 million clones were on the way then they would have said millions. It also seems to take about ten years to fully get the clones ready as I recall. It will at the very least take a few of years to get a clone ready for combat because training would take at least a year.

What many people expected with clones is to literally see non-differenciated humans thrown by legions of hundreds of thousands against enemies in equal quantities, and that in many places to begin counting.

The Clone Wars is not what most people pictured including me.

What many people expected with clones is to literally see non-differenciated humans thrown by legions of hundreds of thousands against enemies in equal quantities, and that in many places to begin counting.

We never see anything like that in G canon as far as I recall.

Not a problem at all.
Heck, I think many people were surprised to see that the Jedi would be the only generals used on the grounds actively -- they're literally thrown into the combat zone with minimal protection, which is just too laughable - that said, considering how clonetrooper armour sucks in general, even against the weapons it's supposed to provide protection against...
Not to say that the total amount of generals at a given time, in all branches of the military of a given country such as the US is below 200, and of course not all of them are sent to the battleground. Lowest generals in many countries (around the 1-star level) already are found leading thousands of troops, which is already far more than what we often see in TCWS, who literally packs two generals (Obi-Wan and Anakin) at the head of small units, rarely even a full brigade.

Jedi have always been portrayed as lead from the front type generals.

Clone Trooper armor does seem to offer some protection from the vacuum of space, and Storm Trooper armor seems to have a climate control system. They would logically offer limited protection from NBC warfare. It would be better if it didn't leave skin exposed to the air.

I agree that the armies seem excessively small, but small armies fits the setting better then large armies because it means that fewer people can more easily make a huge difference.

Regardless of the gear the clonetroopers are given, they're not meant to be supermen. Spartans are.
In theory, any clone trooper should be akin to the averaged best ODST you may find, but I didn't hear that ODST recruited tards and whimps, so I'd say they should be pretty even considering the training and initial combat experience (and then it gets way better for the ODSTs).

I've always felt the Clones should be better then what they are. They've been given ten years of training to be the best warriors they can be.

Dang, I'm sounding like a Haloite.

The UNSC military has one of the best planet side militaries in Sci-Fi even if you only go with the low end for Halo.

True, keeping it small makes its management simpler.
But there's no reason for the other side not to play by the same numbers, and there's no question for both sides to wonder why the frak are all numbers so capped.

There is no other side in the Clone Wars. Palpatine is in control of both sides of the war. He created both the clone army and droid army, and is in control for the most part of both sides.

Yeah, in the end they're even poorer. They don't even get decent armour, not even decent comm gear, and their energy weapons are just not so impressive in terms of accuracy, although they don't have as many problems with limits on ammo.

I think the issues that blasters and other tech seems to have, has to do with the number of stone age cultures that got up lifted, the seemingly poor education system in the Republic, price, and the fact the people buying them have very little martial knowledge..

Blasters do have some nice feats when it comes to raw firepower, but then you get all these odd blaster proof animals.

Yeah, Lucas sucks. A pity people got a taste of good Star Wars with TESB, they thought that would be the staple.

TESB was no different when it came to competence from most of G and T canon. It was just darker.

I prefer a lighter Star Wars and Sci-Fi in general. You get enough grim-darkness just reading the news paper

In SW's high tech land, yes? If only for the fact that you can talk without having to lower your weapons!

Yep, and you'd think they would have had some sort of night vision built into their helmets, or something like that.

Oh I guess that explains the shitty aim of the clonetroopers seen in TCWS as well. Bad programming.
- Sir, I can't seem to hit anything!
*bang*

I don't recall the B-1s getting perfect aim. It was just vastly improved to near Clone levels.

They died shortly afterwards to larger numbers of standard B-1s. It was rather sad actually because they knew they were going to die when they tried to slowdown the pursuing force.

Yes, they're shite and strangely enough no one noticed the flaw. Oh but I guess that's part of super Sidious' plan.

I'd actually take the Commando droids over clone troopers. The droids tend to be slightly better, and can learn.

Arm the fucking astrodroids then!
R2s with M16s. Rise of the bleeping droids. Tadam dam dadam.

Isn't that what they are doing in real life?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_robot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_ground_vehicle

Yes, they're like civilian tractors given weapons. Oblivious to the concept of armour.

That is a little harsh. An AT-TE is actually a decent IFV if you over look the big windows on the cockpit, and the exposed gunner on the top.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terr ... l_Enforcer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker

Go figure. Notice that despite the lack of shields, the tarts had to come suidically close to strike a hit.

- Sir, we have missiles and the mothership's exposed bridge lies half a kilometer ahead of us, behind batteries that can't hit shit. What should we do?
- Break hard right and aim for the big pancake gun!
- Roger rog.. erm, aye sir!

I don't tend to take TCWS that seriously, it's just too retarded.

They had lost too many ships during the mission to get through the shields in the bridge, or were something like one Y-Wings away from that, and they had to fly through heavy flack. We see something similar in ROTJ when the fighters attack the Super Star Destroyer. As a result they chose to attack the secondary target, the ion cannon.

The ion cannon just happened to have no shielding, no armor, and cause a chain reaction that nearly destroyed the Malevolence.

It looks MIGHTY!

And looks mean nothing when you can spot the weaknesses from literally a mile away.

They're armoured mutant chickens. Then, when the chickens die, they remove the organs and fuse seats inside.

They explode from things like falls from their own height. That is bad.

Pillar of Autumn's bridge isn't a model of Smart. Actually none of the UNSC ships are smart on that point either. For some reason, they still can make decent infantry though.

Can you destroy everything of importance on a UNSC ship by simply destroying the bridge? The command tower of a Star Destroyer houses essential systems, computer controls and the bridge.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1844

[Mr. Oragahn]

Reminder

I think at this point it is necessary to point out that we're in disagreement following the statement you made here:

Given the clones are the Spartan 2/3 equivalent in Star Wars, and they are just men in unreliable armor, something like a Spartan in a Mjolnir VI suit will be a monster on the battle field.

An opinion clarified and expanded in your following post:

The clones are suppose to be elite warriors trained to be the best of the best, and engineered from the best genetic stock around.

The Spartan 2 and 3 are suppose to be the best of the best, and engineered from the best genetic stock around.

The Spartans have armor that can seemingly take hits from from the weapons the armor was designed to deal with as well as weapons it likely wasn't designed to handle, and have some nice built in sensors.

The Clones have armor that might let them survive a hit or two, and have seemingly no built in sensor systems.

Halo armors offer full NBC protection.

Clone trooper armor offers partial B and C protection.

Basically Halo human military seems to have better training, better elite forces, and better equipment, and would be able to badly bloody any Star Wars ground force at the very least even using the lower end interpretation. It's like Halo has an army of General Greious.

To which I responded here:

Spartans were meant to be super elite troopers for special operations. First to deal with insurgents, and later to deal with the Covenant while Earth was defeated and outnumbered.
Clone troopers aren't these guys. They're some of the better soldiers out there, but they're still expandable. More precisely, they're the best of the expandable niche.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

The process is vastly different. There were countless many failures for the Spartan program.

There are an unknown number of failed clones. We know this because of 99. It certainly makes you wonder why only 200,000 clones were ready with a million more on the way in Episode: 2. If the the failure rate was so high that only 200,000 out of a million were not deformed....

Conjecture, no fact, right?

The only thing I know about clone's DNA is that it makes them more docile. Their physical abilities are those of Jango Fett, a normal human who became good because of experience, not super human abilities.

Docile? That doesn't really match with what we see, and would make for a rather poor fighting force.

1. It's stated very clearly in the movie.
2. It doesn't make them poorer. It guarantees that an order is followed, even if it means a certain level of sacrifice.
Lucas decided that clones would get some personality, although I don't know if the clones we follow in TCWS are rarer ones or the bog standard model.
If it's the former, that's a good thing, but if all clones are supposed to actually show that level of personality and autonomy, it's really disappointing.
The point of clones was really to show how technology could be callously used to produce expandable men in droves, and not being frightened of dying in such a fashion. However, Lucas is really going another route and rejecting the grim dark, to the point where the only objectionable aspect of the clones is that they were grown for war and outside of families, instead of those two aspects plus the whole zombie-horde overall feeling.

Clones aren't meant to be the super elite at all. They're made to be good soldiers, perhaps above the average, and obedient. There's nothing beyond that that may be spectacular in their abilities at all.

The Clones are the best troops the Republic has, and are an equal match for Commando Droids. That makes the clones elite units.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BX-series_droid_commando

That they're the best troops they have doesn't make them the equivalent of Spartans. I think that is rather obvious.

It's not my fault the elite warriors of Star Wars aren't as elite as those in Halo.
The cloners did their jobs, and that's it.

You argued that those as SW were as elite as those of Halo.
Have you changed your mind or are were still in disagreement?

Those clones don't always die like they are suppose to you know. Daisy-023 escaped, and met her clone.

Interesting. How old was that clone though?

A lot of things could be done in theory, but aren't. Power armor should be very common in Star Wars, but no one ever uses it.

In Halo it's so advanced that it requires modifying the body to use it.

We see the entire Rebel fleet in ROTJ. The fleet is tiny.
It's more a pattern of small numbers.

We can both select evidence going at our advantage.
It begs remembering that the Rebels, by virtue of their unique tactics, weren't meant to have any major fleet at all.
Not to say that according to the EU, the initial rebel fleet comprised several different ships including a sister ship to the Invisible Hand. The Rebels even had seized control of a Trade Federation battleship and carried more than five hundred X-wings in it.

With no indication that there weren't many more millions to come but not fully ready yet. The rate of production of a million units wasn't given, at not established as a cap either (since they could multiply by five the quantity from the first batch to the second one, the possibility that even greater numbers could come seemed plausible).
All in all, it was left very vague.

If more then 1 million clones were on the way then they would have said millions.

No because the 1 million extra were soon finished. Further millions could be like several months away from completion, or more. It was never said that the 200,000 first clones all came from the same factory. They could have easily been the initial fraction of several factories from various locations on Kamino. Same for the extra million.
In fact, if you picture a huge wave that's the sum of all factories' outputs, the beginning of the wave would be the first 200,000 clones, then further into the wave you'd get the 1 million, with the rest of the production wave to come.

What many people expected with clones is to literally see non-differenciated humans thrown by legions of hundreds of thousands against enemies in equal quantities, and that in many places to begin counting.

The Clone Wars is not what most people pictured including me.

That said, there were many visions to assemble back in the old days.
I just find the new Star Wars not very subtle, all in your face, too flashy without being awesome enough, and lacking in real depth.

It's shame that AOTC wasn't TESB's alter ego, put into action and scripted by more competent people than just Lucas.

What many people expected with clones is to literally see non-differenciated humans thrown by legions of hundreds of thousands against enemies in equal quantities, and that in many places to begin counting.

We never see anything like that in G canon as far as I recall.

Not a problem at all.
Heck, I think many people were surprised to see that the Jedi would be the only generals used on the grounds actively -- they're literally thrown into the combat zone with minimal protection, which is just too laughable - that said, considering how clonetrooper armour sucks in general, even against the weapons it's supposed to provide protection ...
Not to say that the total amount of generals at a given time, in all branches of the military of a given country such as the US is below 200, and of course not all of them are sent to the battleground. Lowest generals in many countries (around the 1-star level) already are found leading thousands of troops, which is already far more than what we often see in TCWS, who literally packs two generals (Obi-Wan and Anakin) at the head of small units, rarely even a full brigade.

Jedi have always been portrayed as lead from the front type generals.

From an OT+TPM perspective, not really.
I even thought that Obi-Wan was supposed to be an odd-ball, not exactly your everyday general, that he'd have been put in charge of soldiers because of some spectacular leading abilities, and worked along other baseline human generals.
Globally, I expected the amount of Jedi troop commanders to be extremely law. In fact, Lucas missed a great opportunity here to flesh out the Jedi Order by having some of them, largely influenced by Qui-Gon's toeing-the-line stance, decide to join the war by being more active, a role allowed by the Jedi Order's codex but frowned upon behind the curtains.
Therefore, Obi-Wan could have been made commander of clones, but after requesting that his clones be fully independent and behave like normal humans, as to turn them into a more versatile and qualified small tactical unit.

The vast rest of the clone legions would have been led by typical Coruscanti commanders, sending millions of them to oversee several sectors in turmoil.

I agree that the armies seem excessively small, but small armies fits the setting better then large armies because it means that fewer people can more easily make a huge difference.

I'd rather have few people, if they're supposed to be military goons, being given better tech so to have them be true elite soldiers surpassing the oceans of clone troopers... instead of troopers who can't hit shit 20 meters ahead when bracing themselves against crates.

Regardless of the gear the clonetroopers are given, they're not meant to be supermen. Spartans are.
In theory, any clone trooper should be akin to the averaged best ODST you may find, but I didn't hear that ODST recruited tards and whimps, so I'd say they should be pretty even considering the training and initial combat experience (and then it gets way better for the ODSTs).

I've always felt the Clones should be better then what they are. They've been given ten years of training to be the best warriors they can be.

Yet they're nothing spectacular. They don't master special combat techniques, they get gunned down rather stupidly, do some silly charges at Christophsis, etc.
I don't know what their training program consisted of but I'd wager that it contained about 90% of teletubbies.

True, keeping it small makes its management simpler.
But there's no reason for the other side not to play by the same numbers, and there's no question for both sides to wonder why the frak are all numbers so capped.

There is no other side in the Clone Wars. Palpatine is in control of both sides of the war. He created both the clone army and droid army, and is in control for the most part of both sides.

There was another side. Only the Sith and Fett apparently knew what was going on both sides. That's like three people from a huge amount of leaders on both sides who should have been completely dumbfounded by the complete discrepancies in their own armies.

Yeah, Lucas sucks. A pity people got a taste of good Star Wars with TESB, they thought that would be the staple.

TESB was no different when it came to competence from most of G and T canon. It was just darker.

Which, among other things like better management of characters, made TESB stellar.
The stormtroopers weren't exactly total douches like in ANH or, worst, ROTJ.
Rebels did face a powerful foe and, considering the level of firepower all sides get in SW, did a fair job with what they had. Globally they preferred flee instead of wasting good units and perhaps missiles against ground units when it would have been totally useless anyway, considering the Death Squadron's presence.

I prefer a lighter Star Wars and Sci-Fi in general. You get enough grim-darkness just reading the news paper

Perhaps, but then what's the point of doing Clone Wars if you don't really get to do what people honestly expected to get. Those were dark times after all, yet I don't see much darkness at all. There are less deaths in the whole of TCWS than civilian casualties in Irak alone from the second war.

If Lucas wanted to avoid the brutality of war, all he had to do was to focus on the action happening on the rim of the major war theaters.
In the end, I have no real interest into an universe that is decidedly smited by his own creator who enjoys watching two sides of dumbed down soldiers trying to hit each other.

I expect Lucas to edit TPM so as to make pixie dust burst out of Maul as he get cut into halves by Obi-Wan.

Oh I guess that explains the shitty aim of the clonetroopers seen in TCWS as well. Bad programming.
- Sir, I can't seem to hit anything!
*bang*

I don't recall the B-1s getting perfect aim. It was just vastly improved to near Clone levels.

If you miss the reference, please rewatch the first season of TCWS (I know, the pain). My point should be clearer after that. ;)

Arm the fucking astrodroids then!
R2s with M16s. Rise of the bleeping droids. Tadam dam dadam.

Isn't that what they are doing in real life?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_robot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmanned_ground_vehicle

Yeah and thus far them bots have the brains of a can o' beans.
CAN YOU IMAGINE TEH POTENTIAL WITH SW'S ASTROMECH AI????!!!1!!

Yes, they're like civilian tractors given weapons. Oblivious to the concept of armour.

That is a little harsh. An AT-TE is actually a decent IFV if you over look the big windows on the cockpit, and the exposed gunner on the top.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/All_Terr ... l_Enforcer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker

Aw com'on, it's slow as shit. If it cannot count on mobility, then it should have plenty of armour, especially for vehicles which can actually lift their own weight along the sides of a steep cliff.

Go figure. Notice that despite the lack of shields, the tarts had to come suidically close to strike a hit.

- Sir, we have missiles and the mothership's exposed bridge lies half a kilometer ahead of us, behind batteries that can't hit shit. What should we do?
- Break hard right and aim for the big pancake gun!
- Roger rog.. erm, aye sir!

I don't tend to take TCWS that seriously, it's just too retarded.

They had lost too many ships during the mission to get through the shields in the bridge, or were something like one Y-Wings away from that, and they had to fly through heavy flack. We see something similar in ROTJ when the fighters attack the Super Star Destroyer. As a result they chose to attack the secondary target, the ion cannon.

The ion cannon just happened to have no shielding, no armor, and cause a chain reaction that nearly destroyed the Malevolence.

When you look at the placement of the cannons on the Malevolence and their accuracy, there were plenty of dead angles to exploit to reach the bridge. Shit, merely firing the missiles from that distance should have worked, unless plot suddenly decided that they'd get shot down.

Pillar of Autumn's bridge isn't a model of Smart. Actually none of the UNSC ships are smart on that point either. For some reason, they still can make decent infantry though.

Can you destroy everything of importance on a UNSC ship by simply destroying the bridge? The command tower of a Star Destroyer houses essential systems, computer controls and the bridge.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1844

Going by Halo or Halo Wars, those exposed bridge house essential personnel and even important systems. They should be nothing but auxiliary observation booths during cruise.
Few SF universes get that right. New Battlestar Galactica is one of them. The Asgard and Wraith from Stargate also had encased control bridges (and obviously plenty of redundancy systems).

[Lucky]

Spartans were meant to be super elite troopers for special operations. First to deal with insurgents, and later to deal with the Covenant while Earth was defeated and outnumbered.
Clone troopers aren't these guys. They're some of the better soldiers out there, but they're still expandable. More precisely, they're the best of the expandable niche.

We see things differently here. I see the Clones getting the most dangerous missions, and being sent to bale-out the Republic regulars.

Sophisticated sensor algorithms compressed the combat that sprawled throughout the galactic capital's orbit to a view the naked eye could enjoy: cruisers hundreds of kilometers apart, exchanging fire at near lightspeed, appeared to be practically hull-to-hull, joined by pulsing cables of flame.

Clones are able to fire the ships weapons at nearly the speed of light. They are clearly super-human since the quote is not talking about the bolts being fired. ^_^

Conjecture, no fact, right?

99 was a badly malformed clone trooper, and there was talk implying 99 was not the worst failure.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/99

From what I recall season 3 episode 1 Domino Squad was nearly recycled for being defective as well.

A DNA sample seems to only be able to make a limited amount of clones before it starts making defective clones

1. It's stated very clearly in the movie.

2. It doesn't make them poorer. It guarantees that an order is followed, even if it means a certain level of sacrifice.
Lucas decided that clones would get some personality, although I don't know if the clones we follow in TCWS are rarer ones or the bog standard model.

If it's the former, that's a good thing, but if all clones are supposed to actually show that level of personality and autonomy, it's really disappointing.

The point of clones was really to show how technology could be callously used to produce expandable men in droves, and not being frightened of dying in such a fashion. However, Lucas is really going another route and rejecting the grim dark, to the point where the only objectionable aspect of the clones is that they were grown for war and outside of families, instead of those two aspects plus the whole zombie-horde overall feeling.

Docile things don't fight, or question authority, but the clones do. I just assume someone used the wrong word

That they're the best troops they have doesn't make them the equivalent of Spartans. I think that is rather obvious.

The clones and the C.D. are the closest thing Star Wars has to Spartans, and they fill the same roles even if C.D. and clones are inferior to even ODST..

You argued that those as SW were as elite as those of Halo.
Have you changed your mind or are were still in disagreement?

I never claimed that clones or commando droids were anywhere near as capable as even ODST. I have claimed the Spartans, Commando Droids, and Clones fill the same roles in the militaries they are a part of.

You argued that those as SW were as elite as those of Halo.
Have you changed your mind or are were still in disagreement?

You have misunderstood. I have not been trying to argue the clones or commando droids are as capable or effective or well equipted as Spartan 2/3s or even ODST. I have been try to argue that the clones in Star Wars fill the same role in the Republic military as the Spartans and ODST do in the UNSC military

Interesting. How old was that clone though?

Am I correct in thinking candidates for the Spartan 2 program were kidnaped before they reach puberty? If I am correct then I would guess the flash clone was 5 to 10 years old at least,, but it is hard to tell given we are talking about pen and ink.
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daisies ... coming.png
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Daisy-023
I would assume Daisy-023's flash clone surviving was an anomaly even if the clone was wheelchair bound.

In Halo it's so advanced that it requires modifying the body to use it.

You need body modifications to use the armor used by Spartans to its full potential in Halo, but there are a number of ways that same armor could be modified for normal humans like we do in the real world with fighters, and then there is the prototype armor that could easily be used by normal humans.

We can both select evidence going at our advantage.

It begs remembering that the Rebels, by virtue of their unique tactics, weren't meant to have any major fleet at all.
Not to say that according to the EU, the initial rebel fleet comprised several different ships including a sister ship to the Invisible Hand. The Rebels even had seized control of a Trade Federation battleship and carried more than five hundred X-wings in it.

I don't follow the EU much, and it is self contradictory. The only numbers that matter for Star Wars have always been in G and T levels of canon.

No because the 1 million extra were soon finished. Further millions could be like several months away from completion, or more. It was never said that the 200,000 first clones all came from the same factory. They could have easily been the initial fraction of several factories from various locations on Kamino. Same for the extra million.

In fact, if you picture a huge wave that's the sum of all factories' outputs, the beginning of the wave would be the first 200,000 clones, then further into the wave you'd get the 1 million, with the rest of the production wave to come.

They stated they had 200,000 clones ready, and a million more on the way. They make clones as ordered, and a manufacturer only produce about the number ordered by a customer.

200,000 soldiers was considered a huge army.

EU sources claim a total of 3,000,000 clones.

60,000 clones on a medical station is a sizable part of the army

We know the Republic was thinking of purchasing five million more clones, and to them that was an insanely huge number. That kind of puts a cap on how many clones were purchased.

We know Jedi only command 2 or 3 battalions to take a vital planet like Umbara.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battalion
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battalion

Given the importance of super-weapons in Star Wars small numbers fit.

That said, there were many visions to assemble back in the old days.
I just find the new Star Wars not very subtle, all in your face, too flashy without being awesome enough, and lacking in real depth.

It's shame that AOTC wasn't TESB's alter ego, put into action and scripted by more competent people than just Lucas.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars CGI series is what Episodes 2 and 3 should have been.

From an OT+TPM perspective, not really.
I even thought that Obi-Wan was supposed to be an odd-ball, not exactly your everyday general, that he'd have been put in charge of soldiers because of some spectacular leading abilities, and worked along other baseline human generals.
Globally, I expected the amount of Jedi troop commanders to be extremely law. In fact, Lucas missed a great opportunity here to flesh out the Jedi Order by having some of them, largely influenced by Qui-Gon's toeing-the-line stance, decide to join the war by being more active, a role allowed by the Jedi Order's codex but frowned upon behind the curtains.
Therefore, Obi-Wan could have been made commander of clones, but after requesting that his clones be fully independent and behave like normal humans, as to turn them into a more versatile and qualified small tactical unit.

The vast rest of the clone legions would have been led by typical Coruscanti commanders, sending millions of them to oversee several sectors in turmoil.

Well what we see fits with pretty much every Star Wars comic I recall reading as far as how Jedi lead armies, but your idea is interesting.

I'd rather have few people, if they're supposed to be military goons, being given better tech so to have them be true elite soldiers surpassing the oceans of clone troopers... instead of troopers who can't hit shit 20 meters ahead when bracing themselves against crates.

Sadly Clone troopers do have the best gear of all the militaries in Star Wars.

Yet they're nothing spectacular. They don't master special combat techniques, they get gunned down rather stupidly, do some silly charges at Christophsis, etc.

I don't know what their training program consisted of but I'd wager that it contained about 90% of teletubbies.

The silly charges may be because of that engineered to be docile nonsense. Follow orders even if they are really bad.

We actually see the clone trooper training in season 3 Episode 1 "Clone Cadets". maybe it is the helmets that cause the problem?

There was another side. Only the Sith and Fett apparently knew what was going on both sides. That's like three people from a huge amount of leaders on both sides who should have been completely dumbfounded by the complete discrepancies in their own armies.

Palpatine more or less directly controls the Republic forces, and he controls the the head of the CIS(Count Dooku) and the CIS's top general General Grievous. That means Palpatine knew what both sides were doing, and could tell both sides what to do.

Which, among other things like better management of characters, made TESB stellar.
The stormtroopers weren't exactly total douches like in ANH or, worst, ROTJ.
Rebels did face a powerful foe and, considering the level of firepower all sides get in SW, did a fair job with what they had. Globally they preferred flee instead of wasting good units and perhaps missiles against ground units when it would have been totally useless anyway, considering the Death Squadron's presence.

The battle of Hoth was actually PIS in favor of the Empire, and that is no better then PIS in favor of the Rebels. A few X-Wings firing a couple of proton torpedos at the AT-AT

Perhaps, but then what's the point of doing Clone Wars if you don't really get to do what people honestly expected to get. Those were dark times after all, yet I don't see much darkness at all. There are less deaths in the whole of TCWS than civilian casualties in Irak alone from the second war.

If Lucas wanted to avoid the brutality of war, all he had to do was to focus on the action happening on the rim of the major war theaters.
In the end, I have no real interest into an universe that is decidedly smited by his own creator who enjoys watching two sides of dumbed down soldiers trying to hit each other.

I expect Lucas to edit TPM so as to make pixie dust burst out of Maul as he get cut into halves by Obi-Wan.

People are burnt alive, electrocuted, stabbed, shot, and so on on screen. We see a bleep load of people die, and more implied. You're just not happy because they want to get the TV equivalent of a PG-13 rating.

Star Wars was heavily inspired by shows like Flash Gordan remember

If you miss the reference, please rewatch the first season of TCWS (I know, the pain). My point should be clearer after that. ;)

I'm not sure where I could watch season 1 at this time? Could you please explain what you mean?

The only real flaw with B-1s seems to be programing given what they are meant to be.

Yeah and thus far them bots have the brains of a can o' beans.
CAN YOU IMAGINE TEH POTENTIAL WITH SW'S ASTROMECH AI????!!!1!!

They would rule the world provided they could deal with doors and stares.

Aw com'on, it's slow as shit. If it cannot count on mobility, then it should have plenty of armour, especially for vehicles which can actually lift their own weight along the sides of a steep cliff.

ANAT-TE isn't actually a tank, but I suppose you are correct in that AT-TE could use a bit more armor. What has taken an AT-TE down beside CIS tanks?

One does have to wonder why an AT-TE can't fly?

When you look at the placement of the cannons on the Malevolence and their accuracy, there were plenty of dead angles to exploit to reach the bridge. Shit, merely firing the missiles from that distance should have worked, unless plot suddenly decided that they'd get shot down.

They said they had to do it that way, and the Jedi did not think the Clones could make it to the bridge without at least one more clone being shot down.

No one thought to fire the missiles from farther away.

THey never explain why that flight path needed to be taken. It's like the trench run on the Death star. I'd assume it has to do with some odd quirk in shield design.

Going by Halo or Halo Wars, those exposed bridge house essential personnel and even important systems. They should be nothing but auxiliary observation booths during cruise.

Few SF universes get that right. New Battlestar Galactica is one of them. The Asgard and Wraith from Stargate also had encased control bridges (and obviously plenty of redundancy systems).

Some settings it doesn't really matter where things are because if the shield go down you're screwed, and some one direct hit and you're dead.