Split: SDN Rules, Culture, and Moderation Habits

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Dartan
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Split: SDN Rules, Culture, and Moderation Habits

Post by Dartan » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:31 am

I've been following the thred Dragoon's debat eis on, since I've got a dA account myself (won't name it here) but it surprises me that these guys from SDN think insults and flames have a legitimate place in reasoned debate.

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Gandalf
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Post by Gandalf » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:51 pm

Dartan wrote:I've been following the thred Dragoon's debat eis on, since I've got a dA account myself (won't name it here) but it surprises me that these guys from SDN think insults and flames have a legitimate place in reasoned debate.
It's part of the board culture, you can insult someone on SDN as long as you convey information at the same time.

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Post by Praeothmin » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:11 pm

It's part of the board culture, you can insult someone on SDN as long as you convey information at the same time.
LOL!
Somehow, I don't think it could work here... :)

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Post by Nonamer » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:45 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Dartan wrote:I've been following the thred Dragoon's debat eis on, since I've got a dA account myself (won't name it here) but it surprises me that these guys from SDN think insults and flames have a legitimate place in reasoned debate.
It's part of the board culture, you can insult someone on SDN as long as you convey information at the same time.
...and you don't offend the mods while doing it. They have a habit of banning people that offend them.

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Post by Gandalf » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:57 pm

Nonamer wrote:
...and you don't offend the mods while doing it. They have a habit of banning people that offend them.
No you have to go to quite an extent to get banned there. Extensive dishonest debating, excessive wall of ignorace, lying can get you banned but you have to show an unwillingness to change to get banned. Plenty of people have come in and exhibited these qualities and been titled or warned and gone on to be productive members of the board.

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Post by Gandalf » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:58 pm

For example MKSheppard offends everyone, mods included with his disgusting views but he's still around.

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Post by Gandalf » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:18 pm

Here's the board guide on what it takes to get banned. Hasn't been updated in a while.

And the Parting Shots Forum, where you can go through and see why people where banned. Don't have to be a member to view.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:16 pm

Gandalf wrote:Here's the board guide on what it takes to get banned. Hasn't been updated in a while.
In spite of not having been updated since 11/2004, that post lists no less than 30 banned users - not including "pure trolls," every "invasion" of note, etc. According to the "Encyclopaedica Moronnica," "over 240 trolls" have been banned as of 9/2005 - all, IIRC, permabanned.

Since the board went active in 7/2002, that means an average of at least one serious VS debater permabanned per month, and no less than 7.5 human users permabanned per month if we assume a roughly constant rate.

That's a human user banned for good every four days. Assuming this rate has been constant, banned users should represent just under 14% of the registered members on SDN.

... and as astounding as that figure is, it's not the whole picture. So far as I know from the lists posted, there are probably just as many others who would have been banned if they hadn't simply quit posting at SDN.

(Note that one of the reasons for banning is "excessive wall of ignorance." I.e., simply not buying the arguments of the core SDN community.)

Now, look at the Star Trek versus Star Wars section over at SDN. The first page of 49 most recent threads includes seven moved threads and ten locked threads.

I have trouble thinking of any other board that comes close to comparing to these sorts of figures, and that's without invoking the peculiar moderation rituals that seem unique to SDN.

There are boards that ban users faster, for example, but these usually have ten or more times the user base and you'll have trouble finding a locked thread that isn't an announcement or sticky on the first page of any of their sections.

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Post by Gandalf » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:40 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Gandalf wrote:Here's the board guide on what it takes to get banned. Hasn't been updated in a while.
In spite of not having been updated since 11/2004, that post lists no less than 30 banned users - not including "pure trolls," every "invasion" of note, etc. According to the "Encyclopaedica Moronnica," "over 240 trolls" have been banned as of 9/2005 - all, IIRC, permabanned.

Since the board went active in 7/2002, that means an average of at least one serious VS debater permabanned per month, and no less than 7.5 human users permabanned per month if we assume a roughly constant rate.
Not all user banned are VS debators, in fact the majority of banned users are either trolls (check Parting Shots) or general miscreants.
That's a human user banned for good every four days. Assuming this rate has been constant, banned users should represent just under 14% of the registered members on SDN.
That's a time averaged figure, in fact often several months go by without a ban. And ban polls in the Senate do not always return a positive ban result. Sometimes there's a titling.
... and as astounding as that figure is, it's not the whole picture. So far as I know from the lists posted, there are probably just as many others who would have been banned if they hadn't simply quit posting at SDN.
Hey if you can't abide by the rules than you shouldn't be posting there. Most people seem to be able to get along just fine.
(Note that one of the reasons for banning is "excessive wall of ignorance." I.e., simply not buying the arguments of the core SDN community.)
There are several posters Alyeska for one who is pro Trek who posts and was a Supermod before resigning for personal reasons. THere is in fact numerous pro-Trek posters that post frequently. It's just that the VS subjects have been rehashed so many times on the board that everyone has lost interest.
Now, look at the Star Trek versus Star Wars section over at SDN. The first page of 49 most recent threads includes seven moved threads and ten locked threads.
The moved threads have been moved because they don't pertain to the VS debate. The locked threads include one topic complaining about the pointlessness of the VS debate, no need for that, five necro'd threads for which there is a rule against, one thread pointing to this board for which there is a rule against, two spam topics for which there is a rule against and a topic that has been done a thousand times before.

I have trouble thinking of any other board that comes close to comparing to these sorts of figures, and that's without invoking the peculiar moderation rituals that seem unique to SDN.
There are boards that ban users faster, for example, but these usually have ten or more times the user base and you'll have trouble finding a locked thread that isn't an announcement or sticky on the first page of any of their sections.
It's no secret that SDN has requirements for it's users to meet. But by and large the majority can meet them with little trouble.

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Post by GStone » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:54 pm

JMS wrote:Now, look at the Star Trek versus Star Wars section over at SDN. The first page of 49 most recent threads includes seven moved threads and ten locked threads.
One thing I don't get is why they would leave the locked threads that are over in just a post or 2.
Gandalf wrote:Hey if you can't abide by the rules than you shouldn't be posting there. Most people seem to be able to get along just fine.
They're done a good job of creating an atmosphere that welcomes a certain type of individual amongst the debate forums. Many just stick to the political forums and don't make their way to the debate.
There are several posters Alyeska for one who is pro Trek who posts and was a Supermod before resigning for personal reasons. THere is in fact numerous pro-Trek posters that post frequently. It's just that the VS subjects have been rehashed so many times on the board that everyone has lost interest.
And many, including Alyeska, said they were pro-trek, but acted no better than rabid pro-wars people, like being "pro-trek" was just something to wear, like a shirt.

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Post by Gandalf » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:11 am

GStone wrote:
One thing I don't get is why they would leave the locked threads that are over in just a post or 2.
They leave them up as an example to others.

They're done a good job of creating an atmosphere that welcomes a certain type of individual amongst the debate forums. Many just stick to the political forums and don't make their way to the debate.
Your assuming that everyone signs up to debate on the sci-fi forums. The board has branched out to more than just sci-fi. I orginally signed up to post in the politics section. Why should everyone sign up to debate sci-fi?
And many, including Alyeska, said they were pro-trek, but acted no better than rabid pro-wars people, like being "pro-trek" was just something to wear, like a shirt.
Just because your pro-trek doesn't mean that you subsrcibe to the same Trek ideals that others do.

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Post by Nonamer » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:18 am

Gandalf wrote:
Nonamer wrote:
...and you don't offend the mods while doing it. They have a habit of banning people that offend them.
No you have to go to quite an extent to get banned there. Extensive dishonest debating, excessive wall of ignorace, lying can get you banned but you have to show an unwillingness to change to get banned. Plenty of people have come in and exhibited these qualities and been titled or warned and gone on to be productive members of the board.
I'm pretty familiar with the tendencies of SDN, and I can tell that only in some cases, for those who are offensive but still tolerable, are they still around. Seriously offending the mods will get you banned in probably several weeks if you keep it up. Mike Wong has been known to perma-ban a few on the spot when he didn't like that person. Long term members that are "hard to tolerate" have also been banned if they finally do get on the nerves of the mods, even a little bit. I know at least one conservative member that was wiped out this way.

I'm also aware of the demeaning labels they attach to people they don't like. "Village Idiot" is a common one. I'm pretty sure Darkstar got "Donkey rapist" or something like that. The number of people who suffered this punishment is probably even larger than the number banned. All in all, there's a reason why there are virtually no conservatives nor religious people at SDN, and it's not because they are unanimously stupid or intolerable.

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Post by Gandalf » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:30 am

Nonamer wrote:
I'm pretty familiar with the tendencies of SDN, and I can tell that only in some cases, for those who are offensive but still tolerable, are they still around. Seriously offending the mods will get you banned in probably several weeks if you keep it up. Mike Wong has been known to perma-ban a few on the spot when he didn't like that person. Long term members that are "hard to tolerate" have also been banned if they finally do get on the nerves of the mods, even a little bit. I know at least one conservative member that was wiped out this way.
Explain MKSheppard and Axis Kast then.
I'm also aware of the demeaning labels they attach to people they don't like. "Village Idiot" is a common one. I'm pretty sure Darkstar got "Donkey rapist" or something like that. The number of people who suffered this punishment is probably even larger than the number banned. All in all, there's a reason why there are virtually no conservatives nor religious people at SDN, and it's not because they are unanimously stupid or intolerable.
Darkstar didn't get a title, he got banned when he dared Wong to ban him. Which was just stupid. Donkey rapist is for white supremacists, of which there are very few on the board if any at the moment. Village idiots are so few as to be nonexistant. According to the link I posted there are seven village idiots to which I can add two more that I'm aware of. Out of 3008 members that's pretty good. There are numerous conservative members on the board: MKSheppard, Axis Kast, Coyote, Glocksman, Stormbringer, Norseman, Adrian Laguana, and RThurmont. There are also 62 Christians on the board which have their own usergroup.

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Post by Nonamer » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:18 am

Gandalf wrote:
Nonamer wrote:
I'm pretty familiar with the tendencies of SDN, and I can tell that only in some cases, for those who are offensive but still tolerable, are they still around. Seriously offending the mods will get you banned in probably several weeks if you keep it up. Mike Wong has been known to perma-ban a few on the spot when he didn't like that person. Long term members that are "hard to tolerate" have also been banned if they finally do get on the nerves of the mods, even a little bit. I know at least one conservative member that was wiped out this way.
Explain MKSheppard and Axis Kast then.
One of the few still around. And none of them ever press a serious conservative agenda from what I've seen. The one I mentioned (forget his name) did and was gone after a while.

You've also completely neglected to respond to the worse offenses, like when MW bans people on the spot, or ban polls, or cases where they didn't survive. Not to mention all the threats of bans that backed down many people.
Darkstar didn't get a title, he got banned when he dared Wong to ban him. Which was just stupid. Donkey rapist is for white supremacists, of which there are very few on the board if any at the moment. Village idiots are so few as to be nonexistant. According to the link I posted there are seven village idiots to which I can add two more that I'm aware of. Out of 3008 members that's pretty good. There are numerous conservative members on the board: MKSheppard, Axis Kast, Coyote, Glocksman, Stormbringer, Norseman, Adrian Laguana, and RThurmont. There are also 62 Christians on the board which have their own usergroup.
It was someone else then. I was wrong about that. There was a poll for village idiot like just about every other week when I was there. Same with the ban polls.

As for conservatives and religious people, just like how the show Hannity and Colmes has 1 conservative and 1 liberal, it doesn't mean it's a balanced show. None of these "minority" positions are popular and they rarely get a say. I've rarely seen anything like a serious right wing position and these "Christians" hardly get a peep. They "exist" but I've never seen it.

Trekkies seems to comprise almost entirely of Alyeska and a few others who think just like him. Many people at SB.com have derided Alyeska's moderation style regarding ST vs SW in the Vs. forum. I've talked to over a dozen people myself who think this way of him. In fact Alyeska's biasness was one of the main reasons he lost his mod status, something he pretty much admitted himself.

Ultimately, if out of 3000 members there's only a few dozen people with certain characteristics when there should be 50/50 split, you are not seeing a fair place. When the people who hold these minority position are massively disrespected by the same people that they claim to be in other places, then its obvious who they really are. These are clearly glimmers of a crushed minority, not proof that the site is fair.

You also need to be aware of your own little history on this board. For starters you wouldn't even respect a Darkstar source and derided him as a nutcase. If anyone comes to a board with that kind of attitude, everyone would immediately think you had a very bad history with him. Seeing how you are a member of SDN and given what we known of the general attitude of SDN, that's pretty telling of what people at SDN are expected to really act like.

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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:40 am

At least Gandalf has made an effort to follow the rules on this forum and hasn't flammed. As did Kane. My problem comes from the debate style, which will hopefully change in time. On SDN it is a given that ISDs can slag a planet is an hour and the federation flagship can't destroy a moderate sized asteroid. Here, both of those claims need to be backed up, by more than just saying ICS says so and ICS is supported by and is therefore equal to the films. On SDN, Darkstar and all his work is scorned, here it is admissible evidence.

I'm not saying SDN sucks (though I have a rather low opinion of some of its members) just that things are different there, and that is why I post here.

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