About Federation, on sciforums

Did a related website in the community go down? Come back up? Relocate to a new address? Install pop-up advertisements?

This forum is for discussion of these sorts of issues.
Post Reply
Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

About Federation, on sciforums

Post by Picard » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:29 am


User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: About Federation, on sciforums

Post by Mith » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:41 pm

What are you getting at?

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: About Federation, on sciforums

Post by Picard » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:46 am

Analysis of Federation economy done there.

User avatar
mojo
Starship Captain
Posts: 1159
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:47 am

Re: About Federation, on sciforums

Post by mojo » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:19 pm

“ Second, just because they have unlimited food and simple consumer items doesn't mean that they don't still have an economy. They can't just replicate up new starships, or buildings, or star bases, or entire colonies, or whatever on demand. Those things still need to be built by workers, and their construction will consume limited resources, and all sorts of capital will be needed to do it (construction equipment, space docks, etc.). So...who owns the space docks, construction equipment, and raw materials that goes into building a starship? And who decides what to do with them? Again, since it appears that the answer is "the Federation," they're communists. "

why can't they replicate starships? in part, of course. this idea has always seemed sort of stupid to me. THEY HAVE GIANT REPLICATORS. am i really supposed to believe they don't make ships and buildings the way we build lego sets? is the whole federation retarded? i buy that there are some things that can't be replicated. but what can be, is. it's the only thing that makes sense.

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: About Federation, on sciforums

Post by Picard » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:40 pm

It might be that replicated items are of lower quality (more suspectible to degradation etc.) which might be unacceptable for military use. Also, I doubt that all parts can be replicated. Do we have any canon data on it? As far as I remember (I might be wrong) tritanium is still mined. They might be using atomic rearrange (which would be similar, if not same, in principle to replication) instead of melting to turn raw tritanium into ship plates, for example. Minefield around wormhole probably used wormhole itself as power source, but does imply that Federation (in 2370s, at least) is able not only turn matter and antimatter into salvageable energy, but also vice-versa.

Cocytus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:04 am

Re: About Federation, on sciforums

Post by Cocytus » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:07 pm

We have several instances and statements to the effect that replicated items might be of lesser quality. Picard's phaser rifle breaking in Nemesis could be interpreted as a replicator malfunction, since it's clearly stated replicators can produce weapons (as per Kashyk in VOY "Counterpoint.") Worf clobbers a borg drone with a similar rifle in First Contact, and apparently doesn't break the rifle.

The most commonplace use for the replicator is food. It is even called a food slot in early episodes of TNG. ("Contagion", I think, but I'm not positive.) We have heard of several people who disdain replicated fare, from Picard's brother Robert in "Brothers" to O'Brien's grandmother in "The Wounded," to Major Kira in one of the later episodes of DS9, when she's with Damar's resistance cell. (Odo asks her how the food is, and she replies with an unenthusiastic "replicated.") Maquis Michael Eddington at one point extols the virtues of hand grown food to Captain Sisko. In "Caretaker" Paris complains that Voyager's replicators can't even get tomato soup right. Then we have the fanatic Alixus from DS9 "Paradise."

On the other hand, much of what Quark serves appears to be replicated. The Replimat serves quite a number of DS9's military and civilian population, Picard enjoys his tea, hot, earl grey, as Janeway does her coffee, black, and Sisko his raktajino. In TNG "The Neutral Zone," the revived Sonny Clemens praises his replicated martini and guitar.

O'Brien's grandmother was probably alive before the wide-scale introduction of the replicator. Recall, the Enterprise A had a kitchen and no visible replicators in ST6, which took place in 2293. TNG season 4 takes places in 2367, 74 years later. As for Robert, I'm inclined to chalk his disdain up to his attitude in general. Kira was being served out of a replicator in Damar's ramshackle camp. It probably wasn't up to snuff. I would suggest that, to a certain extent, the seeming inferiority of replicated fare is psychosomatic.

The real question is whether or not the replicator operates at an electromagnetic or strong force level, i.e. does it bind preexisting atoms together to make molecules, or can in bind subatomic particles together to make new atoms? Most of the evidence suggests the former. The replicator cannot be shown to produce living things. We never see, to the best of my knowledge, organs being produced by standard replicators. Picard has a mechanical heart, Nog has a biosynthetic limb, etc. Such production was the purpose of Dr. Toby Russel's genitronic replicator in TNG "Ethics." The replicator hasn't come into full use thanks to Russel's poor ethics, but the fact that it exists, and worked, clearly means the technology is available. Then we have this exchange from "Night Terrors:"


DATA
When Tyken was trapped in a Rift,
his analysis determined that a
massive energy release might
overload and dislocate the
anomaly. Fortunately, his cargo
included anicium and yurium, which
he used to detonate a massive
explosion. He then escaped
through the ruptured center of
the Rift.

GEORDI
(acknowledges)
But we aren't carrying anything
that could produce that kind of
explosion. Even our photon
torpedoes wouldn't be enough.

RIKER
Can't we replicate the elements
Tyken used?

DATA
We no longer have the power to
reproduce complex elements with
our replicators. We must find
a way to generate a violent energy
release without relying on
conventional means.


This exchange implies the replicator is capable of subatomic resolution, which is certainly plausible, given that it is an outgrowth of the transporter, which must be capable of subatomic resolution (O'Brien speaks of Heisenberg compensators at one point.) So it seems the replicator is capable of subatomic resolution, but such resolution would requires significantly higher energy input that mere molecular resolution, (the strong force is around 100 times stronger than electromagnetism) which is why they don't bother to expend such energy on foodstuffs or the like. They probably would demand a higher level of precision for something not considered commonplace, i.e. a replacement part for some piece of crucial technology. Food, phasers, tricorders, comm badges and the like are all commonplace. They probably suffer defects from time to time, with the defective ones being screened out and recycled. Picard's phaser rifle in Nemesis was just an oversight on someone's part.

Post Reply