Express Index Access - UFP

[Lucky]

Well I was trying to be lazy, and see if anyone before me had run the numbers for TItan's Turn so I could possibly copy their work, but I didn't find what i was looking for.

What i found was this site: http://echelon.0catch.com/. It has to be one of the most in depth analyses of Star Trek I've ever come across. It's loaded with quotes and screen caps, and the way it parades StarDestroyer.net is amusing.

What do you guys think? The only down side is not all the pages are finished.

[Picard]

Nice.

[Mike DiCenso]

I can't see any of the available articles as the thing won't load any of the pages, and I get nothing but 503 error messages.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Okay, I finally got through whatever was causing the 503 errors and found this gem:

PICARD: Data, are you familiar with Dytallix B?

DATA: Dytallix B is one of seven uninhabited planets mined for the Federation by the Dytallix Mining Company. It is in the nearby Mira system.

A fantastic find that shows that even in the TNG-era, there are large-scale corporations still in existence in the Federation.
-Mike

[Picard]

There is no reason why there would not be. Even in communism, there were corporations - but were state-owned.

[Mike DiCenso]

There's nothing to indicate that the Dytallix Mining Company (DMC) is state owned and operated. In fact, when we see mining operations in TOS, be it the dilithium operation in "Mudd's Women", or the Janus IV operation in "The Devil in the Dark", they seem very independent of any governmental control. There's even talk about being incredibly weathly as miners in both episodes. So there's no reason things are any different with DMC.
-Mike

[mojo]

this is going so sound really ignorant, but i always thought at least in tng that they were working with true socialism/marxism/communism, whatever. to each according to his need? i mean, obviously there's barter between federation and other cultures or even between cultures within the federation, but for some reason i assumed that at least the human part of the federation was pretty well done with money. have i been missing example after example, somehow?

[Mike DiCenso]

You'd have to have been missing quite a few examples given here on SFJN as those in the articles that were linked to by Lucky in this thread.

The Federation in the TNG-era still uses some forms of currency, as demonstrated in "Encounter at Farpoint" where Dr. Crusher has a Bandi merchant charge her account when purchasing a bolt of silk.

Of course there's the "Conspiracy" example I gave above with the existence in the Federation of large corporations.

In DS9's "Honor Among Thieves", we learn that Federation member Bolias has a major banking institution (the Bank of Bolius), which is also a major interstellar finanical institution.

In VOY's "The Gift", Janeway relates how she purchased a meditation lamp for Tuvok from a Vulcan, who, upon seeing she was from Starfleet, doubled the price.

Ownership of property is not strictly communal, as one would expect in a hyper-socialist or communist system. We know of the Picard family vineyards, and Joseph Sisko owned his restaurant. Even starships can be owned, as Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones, and Kasidy Yates can attest to. So this whole concept that the Federation is communist is one of the biggest falsehoods going around out there.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Cool site although the popup ads are annoying.

[Picard]

Well, Federation certainly is a socialistic society. Socialistic does not necessarily mean communist.

[Mike DiCenso]

The U.S. has socialist programs, as do many European nations, but it is far from being even a true socialist country, despite the best efforts of certain left wing types. So the Federation having some socialist programs hardly qualifies it as such.

What we can say for certain is that normal economics do not play a role in defining the UFP as Picard noted to Lily in ST:FC. It is a true post-scarcity economy since all basic needs are met for the average citizen, but commerce and trade are still a major part of the economy both within and without. We see many people in the Federation engaging in it such activities, despite having their basic needs being met.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

As far as i recall most of the comments about not having money ect were almost always in regards to Earth rather than the entire federation and every member world.

Captain Jean-Luc Picard states in the film Star Trek: First Contact that

"The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."

Note "Humanity".

Jake Sisko in the DS9 episode "In the Cards", in an exchange with the Ferengi Nog:

Jake: "I'm Human, I don't have any money."
Nog: "It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement."
Jake: "Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."
Nog: "What does that mean?"
Jake: "It means we don't need money!"

Note "Species" and "Humanity".

In "The Neutral Zone" Picard explains to a banker from the 20th century

PICARD: That's what this is all about...A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of "things". We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions. We have grown out of our infancy.

He mentions people and they are directly discussing humanity at the time although humanity is not mentioned.

[Mike DiCenso]

This is all in contradiction anyway with the numerous other examples. If Humanity has no money, then why does Dr. Crusher have an account that can be charged for goods and services in "Encounter at Farpoint", and why would they even understand going shopping at a mall?

Same thing with Janeway in "The Gift". If Janeway has no money, how is it that she can purchase Tuvok's meditation lamp as a gift? Clearly there is some sort of a currency exchange that allows her to do this.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

There are more examples of people buying things; from the TNG episode "The Measure of a Man":

PHILLIP: Cute. Try to remember that you're an officer and a gentleman. You know, I never thought I would say this, but it is good to see you again. You're still a damn sexy man, Picard.

PHILLIPA: So buy me dinner.

PICARD: I thought you were meeting someone?

This is interesting as these are two Human Starfleet officers on a mostly Human-run Starbase, and they're talking about buying dinner.


Another example, this time from TNG's "We'll Always Have Paris":

RIKER: I've only been there once, but there's this great bar -- I can't remember the name of it, they serve these blue concoctions...

TROI: ... It's across the square from the Zanza Men's Dance Palace.

Riker & Picard look at her and Troi half-smiles. Then Picard looks forward

PICARD: It's called the Blue Parrot Cafe... and you're buying.

No money, huh?
-Mike

[mojo]

This is all in contradiction anyway with the numerous other examples. If Humanity has no money, then why does Dr. Crusher have an account that can be charged for goods and services in "Encounter at Farpoint", and why would they even understand going shopping at a mall?

Same thing with Janeway in "The Gift". If Janeway has no money, how is it that she can purchase Tuvok's meditation lamp as a gift? Clearly there is some sort of a currency exchange that allows her to do this.
-Mike

this is not really a problem. the idea i get from doing some reading is that there is NO MONEY involved when humans do business with humans. the currency exchange exists only when humans do business with other races and cultures. simple.
and come on, the idea that humans wouldn't understand that other cultures use currency is not very smart. it's clearly strange to other races and cultures that humans DON'T use money. do you think that people who are raced by atheist parents have no concept of church, as adults? that's insane.