Express Index Access - UFP

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mojo
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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by mojo » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:08 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:There are more examples of people buying things; from the TNG episode "The Measure of a Man":

PHILLIP: Cute. Try to remember that you're an officer and a gentleman. You know, I never thought I would say this, but it is good to see you again. You're still a damn sexy man, Picard.

PHILLIPA: So buy me dinner.

PICARD: I thought you were meeting someone?


This is interesting as these are two Human Starfleet officers on a mostly Human-run Starbase, and they're talking about buying dinner.


Another example, this time from TNG's "We'll Always Have Paris":

RIKER: I've only been there once, but there's this great bar -- I can't remember the name of it, they serve these blue concoctions...

TROI: ... It's across the square from the Zanza Men's Dance Palace.

Riker & Picard look at her and Troi half-smiles. Then Picard looks forward

PICARD: It's called the Blue Parrot Cafe... and you're buying.


No money, huh?
-Mike
yes, no money. simple. how many times have i asked a question and gotten a response of 'well it's an antiquated terminology.'? at least a dozen. this is just a saying. 'then buy me dinner' could easily mean 'then have dinner with me' at a restaurant. and with the 'and you're buying' example, how about the idea that the blue parrot cafe isn't a human owned bar? this is just the immediate, right off the top of my head response.

or, and here's something you're not going to like, but makes about 3,000 times more sense than the idea that direct quotes that say humans don't use money can be contradicted logically by quotes talking about buying dinner or drinks, perhaps the writers didn't think it through?

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:50 am

Substances such as latinum are used as currency on a somewhat ad hoc basis, and for the purpose of trade with other cultures, although there have been persistent references to a "credit" unit of currency used at least occasionally in the Federation.

However, this appears to be either a retcon, or a change in the Federation that occurred over the course of the 23rd century, as apparently for at least the latter half of the 23rd century, a monetary unit known as the "credit" was in fairly common use.
At the Federation space station K-7 in the original series episode "The Trouble with Tribbles," set in 2267, Uhura offers to buy a Tribble for 10 credits.
In the episode "Errand of Mercy," also set in 2267, Spock estimates that Starfleet has invested over 122,200 credits in his training as a Starfleet officer.
In Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, in 2285, while on Earth, McCoy attempts to hire a ship to take him to the Genesis Planet, and is warned it would be expensive and cost many credits; we do not know if McCoy could have afforded this or how much it would cost, since he was taken into custody for breaching the secrecy of the Genesis Project immediately afterwards.
And in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Carol Marcus mentions the Federation's decision whether or not to "fund" the Genesis Project itself, though "fund" may mean something different in this context as credits are not mentioned.

There are also references to "buying" and "selling" that do not specifically mention credits; for example, while entering the meeting room in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, Scott states that he had just purchased a boat.

During the film Star Trek Generations, Captain Kirk states that he sold his house some time in the previous nine years, which from Kirk's perspective would be between 2284 and roughly 2290.

By the time of The Next Generation, money was considered abhorrent to many members of Starfleet, although in Encounter at Farpoint, set in 2364, Beverly Crusher buys a bolt of fabric and requests that it be charged to her account on the Enterprise.

Two years later, in 2366, in The Price, the Federation is willing to pay millions of credits for access to a stable wormhole.

Additionally, some officers were shown in Tapestry to visit casinos, particularly near starbases, and poker is shown on a number of occasions to be a favorite pastime of Enterprise-D crewmembers, though real money is never said to be part of the game.

In the Deep Space Nine episode "Explorers," Benjamin Sisko says that when he first entered Starfleet Academy, he rapidly spent an entire month's allotment of transporter credits (which may not be the same thing as 23rd-century credits) on transporting back and forth to his home in New Orleans. He also arranges for his wife's employer to give her a month's paid vacation (emphasis in episode) in The Changing Face of Evil (although his wife works for the Bajorans, a non-Federation race).

And in the pilot episode of Star Trek: Voyager, Tom Paris makes a reference to having someone "pay his bar bills."

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by mojo » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:57 am

i don't know why you bothered with the TOS quotes as the wiki entries all agree that money was still used then. and the TNG quotes are easily explained away. DS9 quotes are interesting but that show apparently couldn't even coherently tell a story considering visuals don't match direct dialogue, and ds9 also gives us a couple of really hardcore 'no money' quotes as well, so what the hell.

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:51 am

mojo wrote:i don't know why you bothered with the TOS quotes as the wiki entries all agree that money was still used then. and the TNG quotes are easily explained away.
The first mention humans not using money came in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, where Kirk (coming from 2286) says "these people still use money" upon arriving at 20th-century Earth, and says "We don't" when asked whether or not he and his crew use money in the 23rd century.

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:03 pm

mojo wrote:i don't know why you bothered with the TOS quotes as the wiki entries all agree that money was still used then. and the TNG quotes are easily explained away. DS9 quotes are interesting but that show apparently couldn't even coherently tell a story considering visuals don't match direct dialogue, and ds9 also gives us a couple of really hardcore 'no money' quotes as well, so what the hell.
Although in Voyager's pilot episode, Quark was fooling Ensign Kim into buying some fake jewelry fro his mother...
How could he do that if he had no money?

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:56 pm

mojo wrote:i don't know why you bothered with the TOS quotes as the wiki entries all agree that money was still used then. and the TNG quotes are easily explained away. DS9 quotes are interesting but that show apparently couldn't even coherently tell a story considering visuals don't match direct dialogue, and ds9 also gives us a couple of really hardcore 'no money' quotes as well, so what the hell.
You actually haven't explained away the TNG quotes, that's the problem. It just means they went to a different monetary system than one based around physical currency. We see in DS9 with people using a thumb print system that there is some sort of electronic transaction system in place.

As for coherence, you've finally got it. Roddenberry wanted his utopia and it rubbed off on a few of the writers for the movies and TV shows, and less so for others. So now we have these confusing situations. So what started off as a gag in ST IV:TVH, lead to a big fubar later on. It's why we've got Dr. Crusher easily knowning how to shop and having an account to charge for goods and services on episode, and not understanding why someone from the late 20th century would be so concerned how much medical procedures would cost the next.

DS9's "In the Cards" didn't help anything, and like TVH, while played up for comedy, it made for more confusion as people clearly have at least electronic credit money in DS9. They had a great opportunity to explain things in that episode, but completely dropped the ball for a few laughs. What ItC should have been was a story about Jake not having any means of changing his electronic account's credits over to the hard currency needed for the auction and Nog's efforts to help out his naive friend. Or it should have been Jake didn't have enough credit in his account and Nog has to help him find a way to cover the amount needed. But Humans have no money? Stupid, stupid, stupid, especially when we've seen them using something to make purchases, and we know even into the TNG-era people own property.
-Mike

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Picard » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:24 pm

and not understanding why someone from the late 20th century would be so concerned how much medical procedures would cost the next.
Federation might have money, yet have free health care. Two are in no way connected.

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:52 pm

Picard wrote:
and not understanding why someone from the late 20th century would be so concerned how much medical procedures would cost the next.
Federation might have money, yet have free health care. Two are in no way connected.
Exactly!
Here in Canada, we do care about money, but never think about how much our medical care costs...

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Picard » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:11 pm

Lucky you. Here we seem to be moving towards US-esque system. I wonder what Ferengi think of UFP healthcare system?

EDIT: And it does seem that Picard was correct when he said to Lily that people in Federation are not obsessed with money. They do use it, but basic needs are being secured by state (thank You, Grand Replicator), and money is used for commodities (like non-replicated items, maybe, trips, etc.). But teoretically you could not get paid for your entire life yet not die from hunger (however, if you tried not to work and yet live at expense of society, you would probably be termed a criminal and thrown into jail. Unlike Communism, where such things were easy for high-ranking Party officials, and liberal capitalism, where living at expense of society is perfectly acceptable if you own a factory, or are a politician).

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mojo
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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by mojo » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:31 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
mojo wrote:i don't know why you bothered with the TOS quotes as the wiki entries all agree that money was still used then. and the TNG quotes are easily explained away. DS9 quotes are interesting but that show apparently couldn't even coherently tell a story considering visuals don't match direct dialogue, and ds9 also gives us a couple of really hardcore 'no money' quotes as well, so what the hell.
You actually haven't explained away the TNG quotes, that's the problem. It just means they went to a different monetary system than one based around physical currency. We see in DS9 with people using a thumb print system that there is some sort of electronic transaction system in place.

As for coherence, you've finally got it. Roddenberry wanted his utopia and it rubbed off on a few of the writers for the movies and TV shows, and less so for others. So now we have these confusing situations. So what started off as a gag in ST IV:TVH, lead to a big fubar later on. It's why we've got Dr. Crusher easily knowning how to shop and having an account to charge for goods and services on episode, and not understanding why someone from the late 20th century would be so concerned how much medical procedures would cost the next.

DS9's "In the Cards" didn't help anything, and like TVH, while played up for comedy, it made for more confusion as people clearly have at least electronic credit money in DS9. They had a great opportunity to explain things in that episode, but completely dropped the ball for a few laughs. What ItC should have been was a story about Jake not having any means of changing his electronic account's credits over to the hard currency needed for the auction and Nog's efforts to help out his naive friend. Or it should have been Jake didn't have enough credit in his account and Nog has to help him find a way to cover the amount needed. But Humans have no money? Stupid, stupid, stupid, especially when we've seen them using something to make purchases, and we know even into the TNG-era people own property.
-Mike
Ronald D. Moore commented: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that." (AOL chat, 1997)

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Re: Express Index Access - UFP

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:52 am

mojo wrote:Ronald D. Moore commented: "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that." (AOL chat, 1997)
And yet, they keep giving us references of people from Earth buying stuff in the shows...

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