Lucky wrote: and there is a lot wrong with the battle in general like the lack of shields.
It's VFX.
Torpedos always seem to go the same speed no matter what(Stupid stock footage). Why should we assume they ever go slower then FTL?
They don't have warp drive. If torpedo is launched at FTL, it will continue moving at FTL. If it's launched at STL, it will continue moving at STL. Without some work-arounds (warp drive, etc.), light barrier is impenetrable.
The way they are used in DS9 proves that the UFP would have been better off just making more torpedos.
Torpedoes can't soak up enemy fire. Besides, script says that Attack Fighters use quantum torpedoes (despite VFX showing pulse phasers) which are far more effective than anything else, so it might be that dozens of micro-quantum torpedoes can be as effective as few large ones. Besides, ordinary torpedoes (both photon and presumably quantum ones) are about 2 and half meters long (once torpedo was used for burial as coffin).
Your talking about Sacrifice of the Angels, and at a point were the Defiant had already taken massive damage, correct?
He's talking about episode when Thomas Riker and Maquis steal Defiant and go on rampage throught Cardassian space in order to find an invasion force which they believe is meant to destroy Maquis (it's actually Obsidian Order force that later attacks Founder's homeworld). That episode also shows that quantum torpedoes are frighteningly effective against shielded ships, and also can be used to disable shielded target without damaging it.
There is about 12 flight trainers per formation. There were about 4 or 5 waves of fighters. That's about one defiant worth of flight trainers, about a Defiants worth of crew according to memory alpha, and they couldn't kill one Cardassian war ship, and to top it off 48 fighters is the lowest number there possibly could be..
And they took massive casualties on way to the fleet, since one of formations drops to 5 fighters when it starts firing quantums at Cardassian ships, losing one or two more fighters in process.
I suppose we can chalk up both sides not just launching torpedos in the enemies direction to VFX screw up since the visuals don't make sense with well known capabilities on both sides.
Federation capital ships were heavily outnumbered and they knew it. Getting destroyed won't do any good. It would be logical for them to hold position outside of opposing fleet's weapons range while sending fighters in to attack.
No one has shields up for no apparent reason for example
Wrong.
SISKO: Garak, why our shields are down?
GARAK: VFX team said that they have isufficient funds to simulate them.
SISKO: DAMN YOU, DAVID STIPES!
the ships are to close together to for fill their stated mission of stopping Sisko...
Federation starships probably have better sensors. Maybe they flocked together to deny them range advantage?
SonofCcn wrote:So what canon policy places dialoge above visuals or even makes a distinction between?
Star Trek canon policy does. Event>dialogue>visuals.
No. Provide evidence they use radar, not something thematicly like radar, otherwise this argument disintergrates under its own weight. You wish to claim they have lightspeed only sensors you must prove it.
Star Trek uses mainly FTL, subspace-based sensors. Subspace radar is likely to be FTL.
Lucky wrote:The pilot of the shuttle will have about 0.00464285718 seconds before hitting Titan, but human reaction times are about 0.19 seconds for light and and 0.16 for sound if I'm reading this right. I'm not sure even world record holders could do it.
You forget that high STL encompasses time dilation. Turn off warp bubble and you no longer have to have superhuman reflexes... then again...
Mith wrote:And I only give them that much on the presumption that there's a really powerful telepath that I'm forgetting.
Try Douwd. Althought he's probably far more than telepath. And Q, who were implied to have been similar to humans once. And about dozen or so others that I have forgotten. Now, they might be semi-gods, but most powerful telepaths in Warhammer are, too. I think.
This is a whole mess of made-up technobabble.
Phasers probably DO have subspace component, since we know of them being used at FTL. So they probably can penetrate shields of races that know nothing of subspace. This is speculation, but it isn't made up. But rest of what he has written in paragraph is made up, but might be valid - at least partially. Lucky, can you explain how you got it?
sonofccn wrote:If we were talking about counting stray hydrogen in another star system sure. But we are talking about spotting a warship at 300,000 kms and if you are claiming a small craft would be blind at that range it falls to you to prove it.
Smaller craft = smaller sensor. Smaller sensor = lower range. You know what is main point of discussion in Eurofighter Typhoon vs about anything threads? Typhoon's radar, which is one of larger, if not the largest, radars avaliable for fighter craft. Typhoon would probably beat F-15 without going into dogfight due to having better radar and having smaller RCS. Oh, and this:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/01/old-school-jet/
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 4053.shtml
http://wareye.com/j-20-will-wash-out-th ... nse-system
Typhoon will probably be quite effective against J-20.
I remember they had chronic power shortage and had to put up with Neelix cooking. Hardly evidence Federation ships don't need a port of call.
They need it, but can do without it in emergencies. One of main advantages of WW2 USN when compared to about any other navy of same period was the fact that US ships could be out of port for quite some time - carriers could have good deal of flight deck blown up and yet be able to repair it and resume operations in hours.
True but everyone seemed really impressed with them whole still being there.
Especially considering they weren't far away behind lines and could probably go home any time they wanted to. They didn't get blown up by Dominion ships until they faced that battleship, too. Spending months in neutral space or unsettled region is one thing... doing that in enemy territory is completely another.
Still they grouped big ships with little ships and moved into range of their enemies guns to slug it out. As opposed to sending waves of strike craft from beyond engagment range or dueling with sub analogues if they were attempting to emulate a more modern template.
In Sacrifice of Angels, wave after wave of fighters was sent. Capships moved in only later.
Thats one example.
In line with many other examples. Especially TNG and TOS.
Assumption I truly admit based off of the E-D tending to fire off clutches of four. But I freely admit we don't know how many torpedoes exactly they fired.
E-D also fired clusters of five torpedoes, and rafales of several torpedoes, as well as single shots.
Except this wasn't an ideal situation but only the ship they had in range to intercept the Phoenix
And heaviest Cardie ship shown on-screen until appearance of Keldon class.
And its just that such overkill doesn't mesh with how Cardies ships are presented later, at one shot apiece the defiant should be able to eat several dozen before needing a refill. Assuming its a weaker warship allows us to better merge everything togather. It was just an idea through, I'm not wedded to the idea.
Nebula class is far more powerful than Defiant. Besides, it has two forward torpedo launchers of unknown capability and phaser strips similar to Galaxy class. It was second most powerful ship in the fleet until appearance of Sovereign class; Prometheus class could also probably defeat it on sublight (what we see in "Message in the Bottle" isn't indicative since Nebula in question was probably diverting power to engines in order to catch up with Prometheus, so I can't say for sure; however, Prometheus class is not much smaller and is much more combat-oriented vessel - pure warship, actually - and has ablative armor).
I would agree that would make them better weapons of war but for some reason they didn't go down that route. They went with weaker torpedoes but the damage they inflicted is still far outside the cost of a handful of little strike crafts.
Torpedoes were identified as quantum ones in script.
And they are not outliers, they are examples that for one reason or another Federation vessels and rivals don't sit out at colosal ranges sniping at each other.
In single combat, there is usually no advantage to do so when enemy can do it too. As for fleet-scale battles... that, and fact that we know that shields can mess with sensors. Large fleet = large, intense subspace distortion.
C-canon example of sensors at million klicks, for a small ship. As recorded here
C-canon isn't valid. First, C-canon = N-canon. Second, even if it were canon, movies and movie novelizations show otherwise. Rebel fleet at Endor doesn't engage until much later after noticing Imperial fleet. That is <100 km range.
I have an equally canon event in Call to arms showing maximum range at vastly smaller distances.
That Stipes f***-up? TNG overrides DS9, if only becaouse they didn't have Stipes. Besides, I remember reading that Rodenberry said something along these lines. And its only TNG or TOS that can take supremacy.
The battle bugs in case your curious follow them to sublight.
Well, FTL-to-sublight combat seems to have been dropped after TOS. However, Star Trek STL is fast enough for it not to make difference against Star Wars.
Against radar unless you have more evidence you would like to present.
I did somewhere above.
No that is your assumption trying to hold onto your millions of kilometers ranges against a rather hefty amount of evidence of far shorter ranges.
Evidence of shorter ranges doesn't invalidate longer ones. Both have to be explained.
Microjumps are fully within the capability of hyperdrives.
Warp drives can make them too. Besides, how long it takes to make a jump once it is decided to do it?
You spoke of the Defiant being able to take them all on, of it being able to fight fleets. I was reminding you the Defiant is just a warship, not some uber-god and if you sent in enough Defiant class warships to do what Sisko intended it would have required a very serious comitment and they'd would have been a blood bath.
And they didn't have enough Defiants at the time to do it.
afterall Gul Macet wouldn't have been so surprised of his warship being trounced
He was surprised beacouse
little before that he was given codes that allowed Cardassians to lower Phoenix's shields. And right before that, he made clear that Galor class wasn't a match for shielded Phoenix. As it turned out, it wasn't match for unshielded Phoenix either.
No one is saying the Defiant is not a tough warship, except you of course with your argument Cardies are one shot kills, through that is a bit of a hyperbole since the Lakota was able to give her a good little scrape and she was an old refit.
Old
Federation refit. Federation expects hulls to last around 100 years. I doubt that any Cardie ship would be able to get upgraded so much as Lakota did. Besides, both Lakota and Defiant were holding back, and Defiant is
far smaller than Lakota. Smaller than Lakota's saucer, actually.
Ergo sight exceeds combat range.
Which is just logical, since to fire, you have also to process data and aim. Also, weapons have limited speed, and, in PT's case, fuel.
Funny that is what I feel like saying to you.
And both of you would be quite correct for saying that to one another, 'cause both of you are doing it, albeit on different points.
Because we see them maybe? I know you don't like it but visuals are canon. I'm just trying to make everything fit.
"Wounded" visuals are canon too. And dialogue is more canon than visuals. Besides, launching torpedoes at fraction of c might be beyond ability of torpedo launchers; meaning that torpedoes would have to accelerate on their own - reducing yield in process.
You are arguing against yourself. Either Voyager didn't need supplies because it can fabricate everything easily or Voyager needs supplies because everything spent running basic fuctions can't be used for something else. Say photon torpedoes or replicators.
Or Voyager can fabricate lots of things but it takes time, and relatively rare resources that they don't have time searching.
You expect a munition to be cost effective to traverse at FTL speeds but a shuttle won't be.
I don't agree that shuttlecrafts aren't FTL-capable, but here you are making a mistake. If it is true that lightspeed barrier can't be tranversed without special drive (Einstein) - which is idea Star Trek is built around - then torpedo launched at FTL WILL remain at FTL, even if it has no engine at all. So you have to show example of STL-launched torpedo going FTL.
Cool it lucky. I am providing canon examples but please if you have an example of the defiant killing tens of dozens of cardie ships please present it.
Well, Kira was quite clear that Defiant can't win against ten Galors and few Keldons (or was that opposite?).
No you are doing what STSW does, and that is ignore the evidence you don't like.
Feel free to report me is you feel as such. But the only one ignoring evidence he doesn't like would be you.
Then both of you should report each other. From what I've seen, both of you are doing it, which is partially why I jumped in.
About five or so fighters attacking per capitol ship, several more in the general area but there are a lot of warships to engage.
And they don't have to engage them all.
Until something breaks and your running halfway across the ship to fix a relay. Put please give me a canon statment where they state they send warships out with a crew measured in the low single digits and I'll be happy. I'll accept it. Your musings however are not canon.
I remember Memory Alpha putting Miranda's crew in low double digits. But low single digits...? Impossible. You have to have medical staff, engineers, command staff, then replacements for these if someone gets killed and to be able to fill several shifts.
Praethomin wrote:Runabouts are about the size of a fighter (slightly bigger, but still) and are not that easily disposed of...
Arm 5 with 1 Photorp each, and you have an effective fighter attack wing, no?
And Maquis fighters were shown to be stronger than runabouts...
