The circumstances in Star Trek are similar to those from the age of sailor(as I've heard it called). The ships are often a long way from home, and at least at times can't contact their superiors when they may need to in real timesonofccn wrote: My point would be that Star Trek wasn't made to be realistic. That the things which shaped it were culled from older phases and events from our own history no more "accurate" than Lucas's pulling old Buck Roger seriels and WWII battle footage. That to argue Trek is more "realistic" is fool hardy.
1) Size matters when it comes to warhead yields, reactors out puts, and sensors in the real world, and we see the same thing in Star Trek, or they would not build huge subspace telescopes like the Argus Array.sonofccn wrote: 1. You are assuming a notable and revelant drop, by what are you basing this off of? What evidence?
2. As well I only need for it to be able to target and hit an enemy warship at the combat range said target can hit it.
Sensors are limited by their power out put, and how much light or what ever they can take in at one time. Bigger more powerful sensors will always be better then smaller less powerful sensors built with the same level of technological advancement.
Smaller reactors put out less power. A reactor has to be of a certain size in order to reach a certain efficiency, and a smaller reactor will have smaller reactions.. We know that a 4.2 gigawatt reactor is about as tall as Riker's legs are long, and likely about 3 or 4 feet across.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ers029.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =51&page=2
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/152.htm
The Smallest warp core I know of is from the Delta Flyer/Delta Flyer II, and that thing could take out ships just by breaching near by. When it blew up ships 1.2 million kilometers away felt it so we can rule out warp cores as the Federation attack fighters power source unless you want to ignore all the visuals.
The smallest fusion reactor we see is about 3 feet by 3 feet by 3 feet, and only has an out put of 4.2 giga-watts. Now the problem is that 4.2 giga-watts is only enough to power a small phaser bank. Clearly the Federation would need to use an extremely high end fusion reactor, but that would make the fighter rather expensive.
2) The observed effective range for the fighters is no more then ten kilometers at best, but enemy range is much higher if they bother to fire.
You seem to have never heard of the Star Trek spin off called Voyager where it is proven that badly damaged, under supped, under crewed ship can go 23 years with no support.sonofccn wrote: Supply lines are a fact of war, have been since time immortal and they are not more easily disrupted than my enemies. Perhaps stronger, I can spare larger more powerful ships for convoy duty because they are not all tied up on the front.
The USS Valiant was trapped behind enemy lines again showing need for supply lines.
What you suggest is that the Federation have fixed bases for the fighters to operate from, or the Federation build something like a Venator from Star Wars, and then resupply it with fighters and pilots after every mission after every mission because most of them are going to die quickly. That sounds very expensive to me.
Then by your standards there are no gunboats in Star Trek.sonofccn wrote: The Defiant is a destroyer to the Galaxy's cruiser. By Gunboat I mean something like this. Small, expendable craft packing high firepower.
Given they are called Academy Flight Training Craft one...sonofccn wrote: Since we are arguing about the small auxiliary Federation fighter this line makes no sense.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Ac ... rainer.jpg
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Academy_flight_trainer
They appear in one battle, and never appear again. It certainly looks like the Federation does not use them, but was testing an idea that utterly failed to be effective. The Federation didn't even expect the fighters to be able to defeat the Cardassian ships. A weapon system that is only good for annoying your enemies is a failure .
Sacrifice Of the Angels
GARAK: He's hoping to get them to break formation and so they'll after the Federation fighters. He knows the Jem'Hadar will stand their ground, but the Cardassians just might get angry enough to take the bait.
Well I have yet to see you prove the Federation actually makes use of a useless weapon system. How often do you think the Federation just wants to annoy the guys they are fighting for their lives with Academy Flight Training Craft armed with weapons that are nearly useless?sonofccn wrote: Immaterial. We are arguing the feasibility of "strike craft" in the Trek verse and if it is "realistic" or not. That any races choose to use them or not is largely academic to our purposes. I merely have to show evidence that my interpretation is soundly supported by the available evidence.
First you are using Deep Space Nine fleet battle as if they actual show what is going on, and we know they don't. They are just meaningless eye candy that makes no sense.sonofccn wrote: All of DS9 battles where Galaxy class starships would mingle with Mirandas and Excelsiors and go toe to toe with the Dominon opposites?
Secondly we only see what can be spared at the moment,. Sisko didn't even get all the ships he wanted. You are assuming there is rime or reason for why certain types of ships are grouped together with no proof of it.
We know there are Galaxy Wings and Cruiser Wings for example.
Sacrifice of the angels
SISKO: Sisko to all ships. Cruiser and Galaxy wings, drop to half impulse. You too, Commander.
sonofccn wrote: Because its their job? I'm not a FX guy but I imagine completely disregarding the scripted events would tend to get you fired.
They disregard the script a lot in Deep Space nine for no reason at times. Keep in mind that the script says that 500 meters is dangerously close when a ship is exploding.sonofccn wrote: What scenes?
You'll note that we know that the ships in question in the botched scene had weapons ranges in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers.http://st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange-Trek.html wrote: - "A Call to Arms"[DSN5] (2373)
A Dominion fleet heads toward DS9, intent on its capture. At last, the war begins.
This, however, is an unusual example. Damar reports that they will enter weapons range in one minute. However, the scene immediately preceding shows the Dominion fleet approaching to within perhaps a dozen kilometers of the station. (The problem in reality was a bit of overliteralism among the VFX crew . . . the script said the fleet was headed for the station, so at the end of a fleet flyover shot the ever-crappy VFX supervisor David Stipes inserted the station at a distance, as if the audience was too stupid to know where the fleet was going.)
• Observed Maximum Range: 10km (Dominion/Cardassian weaponry)
• http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ms_504.jpg
• http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 38&page=13
• The space battles in Way Of the Warrior. for example:
Notice how they are fighting at point blank range, and then move to point blank range
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as55NormWzg
Note how the Klingon fleet is in clear view, but the characters can't see it.
Note how the station is being swarmed, and randomly attacked, but they order to target the lead ships.
Note how after being ordered to target lead ships they seem to fire randomly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V_tp5C27TQ
Sacrifice of the angels is what you are talking about, right? The scene were the Dominion and Cardassians let the barely armed Academy Flight Training Craft fire on the Cardassian ships, and at best do minor damage, and then get blown to bits by the Cardassian ships they just fired on?sonofccn wrote: Sigh. So I reinforce that I was speaking of the "real world" and a possible advantage that Therumancer was disregarding in pronouncing "strike craft" useless and you go off on a tangent about Trek's point defense systems. Very well. All I need to point out the one time we saw state of the art "fighters" engaging a modernish ship they did not overwhelmingly destroy the "strike craft" while their hull was pitted.
First the way torpedos is spoken it could just mean that the Phoenix is going to use the torpedos it has on board, and does not necessarily mean it has fired more then one torpedo.sonofccn wrote: So we are looking at four or more torpedoes to destroy a solitary warship not just one torpedo.
How do you figure the Phoenix fired no less then 4 torpedos?
The Galor seems to be the best ship the Cardassians have, and their most common ship. They aren't going to send anything, but their most powerful ships against the Phoenix.sonofccn wrote: Actually was the destroyed warship in the Wounded identified as a Galor cruiser I can't remember and quick check through the script with search couldn't find the word Galor. We never see the warship.
I expect the 3 or 4 Academy Flight Training Craft to use 1 to 5 torpedos like the Phoenix did, and to at least take the target out of the fight, but we know they can't do that. The Trainers seem to be meant to kill the capital ships with paper cuts.sonofccn wrote: Irregardless you are comparing the performance of a multi-hundred meter long vessel to a very tiny handful of barely two digit meter long vessels. If they could replicate the instant knockout they'd be far more powerful than a Nebula to the point building anything larger than a fighter for combat would be maddenly insane.
Given we see Galaxy class being effective, I think it's rather obvious they are effective ships. We have one example of a Galaxy class caught with it's pants down, but we have never seen shuttles, Runabouts, or Flight Trainers being very useful against larger ships.sonofccn wrote: The Galaxy class was useless as well. Should we assume the Galaxy class is not an effective ship as well?
sonofccn wrote: I pulled it from memory alpha, could be taken from a technical manual or something I suppose. I'd gladly switch over to a craft we have a canon crew number for say the Enterprise-D.
Keep in mind that Star Fleet has 3 to 4 shifts a day, and that means you only need 12.5 to 16.66666667 to actually run a Defiant if you assume a crew of 50. The problem is though, unlike the Enterprises a defiant has almost nowhere for the unseen crew to be when off duty.sonofccn wrote: We seldom if ever see 400 on Kirk's Enterprise or 1000 on the Enterprise-D but we know they are there.
The standard crews of the Enterprises includes people who have nothing to do with running the ships like geologists remember.
Did Kirk ever get replacements for the red shirts who died?
Well I came up with the number 19 for the possible minimum crew for a Defiant by taking the number of seats on the bridge, and then adding 1 to 10 engineers because that is what I recalled seeing in the engineering section. The number is surprisingly close to what you get if you divide 50 by the number of shifts there are in a day.sonofccn wrote: And this is from which source again?
If you have 3 shifts then you end up with 16.6666667 people on duty on a given shift, and if you have 4 shifts then you have 12.5 people on duty during a given shift assuming a crew of 50.
They weren't so short on man power that they couldn't have maned the small craft.sonofccn wrote: The Defiant is a good, rugged ship. Likely with thier limited resources it was superior than waves of "strike craft" they lacked the materials and manpower to replenish.
Combat started at 30,000 kilometers with Voyager targeting the Equinox's warp core, and you are talking about two ships that have been badly damaged at least once, low on supplies, and have not been to a dry dock.sonofccn wrote:
1.equinox part II
2.equinox part II
Two starships, one pursuing the other, closing to short distance.
I may be misremembering, but i thought Voyager wanted to capture the crew of the Equinox?
One obvious problem with those visuals is that the ships are all right side up.sonofccn wrote: 3. Peak Performance
Ferengi attack the Enterprise thinking they are protecting something valuable while not hundreds of thousands of kilometers away
4.Rascals
Bird of preys decloak and attack the Enterprise-D at a piddling distance
5. First Contact(Movie) Attacking the Borg cube and doing it while in visual range.
None of which disproves their combat range of 300,000 of course simply that for one reason or another they prefer to close in to engage.
How far away are the ships in those pictures?
This is going to sound annoying to you, but have you read this page? http://st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange-Trek.html
You seem to be focusing on rather flawed outliers.
Star Wars for example only has ranges in the hundreds of Kilometers, and if we are being generous single digit thousands of kilometers.sonofccn wrote: Actually I was refering to the actual ship. It would only have a second delay at most before the ISD sees it far from the claim that a Federation starship could simply sit too far back and plink away without being observed.
We know the Federation can target FTL objects from light minute s away, and destroy them.
WORF: Sir, according to my calculations, a solar probe launched from either the Klingon ship or the planet's surface will take eleven seconds to reach the sun. However, since we do not have an exact point of origin, it will take us between eight and fifteen seconds to lock our weapons onto it.
Earth is about eight light minutes from Sol.
The planet in the movie seemed rather Earth like, and the Star the planet orbited seemed rather Sol like. we can assume the planet is about as far from it's star as Earth.
The Solar probe was going to take 11 seconds to reach the star.
Light travels about 300,000 kilometers a second
300,000*60= 18,000,000*8= 144,000,000/11= 13,090909.1 kilometers a second
The Solar Probe was able to travel 13,090,909.1 km/s, and that makes it FTL, but the Enterprise-D could shoot it down if they could get a targeting lock on it before it reached the star. Clearly Star Trek has light minute ranges, and FTL weapons that are not dependent on the ship's FTL system. The ranges Star Trek ships fight at has nothing to do with not being able to reach the target with the weapons.
We know Star Trek ships are deceptively fast since they normally seem to quickly reach high fractions of the speed of light(best of both worlds, Chain of Command), and we know that Star Trek ships use their FTL system to dodge weapons fired at them(Balance Of Terror, and a few other episodes I can't recall the names of).
Just turing on the shields actives some form of ECM(Tomorrow is Yesterday, Future End, Second Skin)
So the above proves Star Trek combat ranges are governed by the target's ability to dodge, and ECM.
Something like a Star Destroyer will in all likelihood not have ECM that will be very effective since it seems limited to the E.M. radiation, is down right huge, and not very maneuverable. It's not going to see a ship light seconds away, and traveling at 70% the speed of light or higher.
I was talking about hyperdrives being used tactically. If you use your hyperdrive, you will be telegraphing that you are going to use your hyperdrive, and I vaguely recall the tactic only used once, and it was very hard to do.sonofccn wrote: Did I deny that it takes some seconds to a minute or so? However against an alert and battle ready Star Destroyer you get one maybe two shots before your range advantage vanishes in a hail of hyperspace radiation. Assuming lightspeed sensors which you have not proven.
What is this hyperspace radiation you are talking about? I have seen all the Star Wars movies, and most of the Clone wars CGI show, and they never show anything like what you are describing.
We know from Cat and Mouse that Star Wars ships have unreliable magnetic field sensors that have a very short range, ands. The only thing we know Star Wars cloaks hide the ship from is visual sensors. I don't recall any evidence that Star Wars uses any exotic sensor tech by real world standard, and the mark one eyeball is a very popular sensor. I seem to recall the naked eye being better then many sensor systems in Star Wars. Doesn't Princess Leia see the Executioner before the Millennium Falcon's sensors at the end of TESB novelization?
I already proved FTL sensors for the Federation. They can see a FTL missile in Generations, they watch a battle that is happening light years away in The Wounded, and any warp capable power in Star Trek must have FTL sensors or they would be blind while moving at faster then light speeds, but if you must have a quote here: Voyager: Scorpion KIM: I'm reading two Borg vessels. Make that three, four, no, five. Fifteen Borg vessels. Distance two point one light years and closing!
It's actually not uncommon for the mother ships to sit back, and let the fighters do the work in Star Wars and many other seriessonofccn wrote: Even in Star Wars fighters typically close nearer to the target than their parent craft however pathetic that is, now yes Sci-fi is in love with aviation-cruiser hybrids but from what I've seen two ships will shell at each other while "strike crafts" fly towards the big ships to blast them.
Federation Flight Trainers are only big enough to fit about two people at most, and beyond the cockpit there can't be much room inside. They are parasite craft. They have to have less room for the crew then a standard shuttle because of the huge engines, reactors, and weapons.sonofccn wrote: I don't recall them leaving a starbase, which episode if I may ask.
As I recall the fleet seen in Sacrifice of the angels met up at Star Base 375, and then headed to Deep Space-9.
How does the Federation Flight Trainers only being successful because the other let them land hits help you prove they are an effective weapons system? According to the visuals the Cardassians and Dominion forces just sit there with shields down, let the flight trainers land hits, and then the ships hit blast the flight trainers to bits.sonofccn wrote: Which would only further support my stance, thank you.
The battle we see in Sacrifice Of The Angels shows that even with the enemy letting them hit unshielded hulls the Flight Trainers could not disable or destroy the target. Even when the enemy is helping them the flight trainers aren't credible threats.
Except that isn't what we see. The defending force didn't even both to put up shields when they knew the attack was coming, and we know the Cardassians had no trouble targeting the Flight trainers from the video.sonofccn wrote: No going by visuals the fighters came in too fast, were too small and too agile to effectively target farther out. No need to imagine nonsensical slag just because it doesn't mesh with how you believe combat should be.
This argument is horrible. Think about what you are saying.sonofccn wrote: 1. They were only attacking five to a ship, a pittance no matter which way you slice it compared to a Defiant much less anything else, simply to inflict damage would prove their worth
2. Since we only fleetingly see the cardassion ships I fail to see how you can make a determination on how disabled they were or not.
1) Q Who: DATA: Without our shields, at this range there is a high degree of probability that a photon detonation could destroy the Enterprise.
Given what we see in Sacrifice of the Angels I expect the unshielded Cardassian ships to be at least so badly damaged by the Fighters that they can't fight
2) We see only tiny internal explosions. We see the targeted ships return fire. We have knowledgeable characters expect the fighters to be nothing more then an insult. What more do we need, the Trainers suck as weapons systems?
Wow, I've never seen a Straw man this drastic. I must not have been clear as to what I meant.sonofccn wrote: No. Just no. From Defiant DS9 season 3Kira expresses doubt as to wether the Defiant could beat three Keldon warships and could not win against ten Galor cruisers.sonofccn wrote: KIRA: Listen to me. Those three ships up ahead are going to lock onto our neutrino leak and open fire. That means you'll have to fight back.
RIKER: With this ship it'll be a short fight, I promise you that.
KIRA: Let's say you disable or even destroy those three ships up ahead of us. Fighting them at all is going to slow us down and then those ten ships behind us are going to catch up, and not even the Defiant can win against those odds.
From Sacrifice of Angels DS9 season six
With the fleet backing her the Defiant has been bloodied to hell. On her lonesome the Cardasion warships would have murdered her.sonofccn wrote: Starfleet ships are being ripped apart. Defiant is under constant bombardment.)
DAX: Sir, we've just lost the Sitak and the Majestic. We're on our own, Ben.
O'BRIEN: Comm's back online.
NOG: Four enemy ships directly ahead.
SISKO: Evasive manoeuvres, pattern Omega. We're going through.
(Defiant weaves between the big Cardassian ships, pursued by Jem'Hadar fighters.)
DAX: That's one down.
SISKO: Can you shake the other three?
DAX: I'm trying.
BASHIR: We've lost aft shields. Forward shields are down to fifteen percent.
GARAK: Wouldn't this be a good time to cloak?
O'BRIEN: The cloaking system's fried.
Normally the Cardassian fleet would never be able to mass like that, and The Trainers would never have been able to take that beating.
We see the Phoenix have it's way with the Cardassian fleet to the point they have to ask the Federation for help.
We also have: DS9: Defiant: DUKAT: Are you telling me that one of the most heavily armed warships in this quadrant is now in the hands of Maquis terrorists? Do you have any idea what kind of response this will provoke from the Central Command?
That would be your fualt for not being clear as to what you are talking about.sonofccn wrote: Sigh. Once again I speak of "Reality", ie. the general case as opposed to Trek specific, and you bring up Trek again. Anyway the Borg cubes ran roughshod over just about everything.
And B-17 and P-51 were the most deadly craft in an old flight simulator I use to play. The Lysian drones died about as quickly as the Federation flight Trainers did, but Picard wasn't as generous.sonofccn wrote: They were more than a century out of date, you might as well use a Sopwitch Camel as an example of how an F-22 is too slow and easily shot down to be of use.
Why do you want me to prove the Runabout couldn't return fire? We don't even know if that model of Runabout was armed, and we know for a fact smaller craft like a runabout, flight trainer, and shuttle pod are nearly useless in combat..sonofccn wrote: You must prove the Nebula could shoot at this distance but say the Runabout couldn't for this to matter.
Sensor resolution is very important for targeting, and hitting what you are aiming at. If they can see it they can aim at itsonofccn wrote: Irrevelent. They can't hit anything but at the most infintismal fraction of that distance.
Tritanium and Dilithium are not found on every planet, and seemingly the same is true for Duranium.sonofccn wrote: Those are the mundane materials of Trek. Take shuttle crafts I think its safe to say they are each only a small fraction of the cost of the parent ship, or the Enterprise-D blew the cost of her construction several times over the cost of the show, and they come with sensors, phasers, warpdrive and all the other bells and whistles.
Those shuttles and such are nearly defenseless, have nearly no room for cargo, and often have no weapons. Those parasite craft that are armed are nearly useless , and characters actually feel extremely insulted for being attacked by them in a war. The only thing they can do is run if they are lucky.
Take your fingers out of your ears, open your eyes, and stop going la la la la as loud as you can. The Trainers couldn't even take down unshielded ships that let them have free shots. A single fighter should be able to take down an unshielded ship with a single hit because we are specifically told that it only takes one federation photon torpedo to destroy an unshielded Galaxy Class vessel.sonofccn wrote: No we haven't. At least not in your examples. The only one that comes close would be the runabout and that was a solitary craft versus a Nebula class cruiser. I'm not arguing that a single "fighter" can bring down a Federation cruiser so the example isn't that big of a problem.
Even if a shuttle has only has a mass 1 tonne(1000 kg), and is only going 0.7c it will have 3.595*10^19 joules of kinetic energy.sonofccn wrote: No. Really, no. nBSG has nuclear capability I believe with their strike craft capable of carrying kiloton scale IIRC and Babylon 5 similar has nuclear weaponry at their disposal. A shuttle might be an interesting problem but either verse would destroy it at some point.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=re ... calculator
A navigational deflector is designed to remove everything from the shuttle's path, we know from TOS that Star Ships can go backwards at FTL speeds, and we know from Voyager that the navi deflector protects the side as well. There are no weapons in NBSG that can defeat a navigational deflector, and the only powers who might be able to get through one in Babylon 5 with standard weapons would be the first ones. Yields mean nothing if the energy can't reach the target. Didn't an enterprise era shuttle survive a nuke?
Settings like Babylon 5 and NBSG have no way to target something that is moving at high fractions of the speed of light let alone faster then light objects as far as I know.
The stresses caused by performing Titan's turn are insane. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but at 70% the speed of light it does not matter much if you hit a solid or gas, but Federation shuttles have no problem dealing with the stresses of flying through Titan's atmosphere at .7c, and that ignores the insane G-forces.
We see ship verse planet many times in Star Trek, and the ships tend to come out of it with little damage while already damaged.(Skin of Evil, Muse, The Ship...)
All forms of shields in Star Trek do not seem to transfer much if any energy/momentum back to the projector.
So when I said a humble Federation shuttle could ram certain settings into submission I meant the shields would protect it while shredding the other ship. At the very least it could cause major damage to planets by flying through the atmosphere.
Even the weak Enterprise era shuttles are extremely difficult to damage, and well armed by many setting's standards.
Last time I checked the Delta Flyer's warpcore is the only one we see explode, and many implodesonofccn wrote: Which is a warpcore and is an overpowered example. To be threat to ships which can shrug off nuclear scale yields at a radius of a million klicks implies a very, very big bang. Doesn't mesh with the greater whole of Trek.
No you haven't, and if the examples you provide are the ones I'm thinking of you missrepresented the battle..sonofccn wrote: Which is one example. I've shown you like five so yours is an outlier.
I've never claimed it is practical in Star Trek to use your weapons at maximum range, but there are multiple examples ofsonofccn wrote: I don't have a problem with a torpedo being capable of faster than light travel, with Mike Dicenso reminding me of photon torps hauling butt through a star, but that doesn't mean they are used at light-minute ranges or always travel at such a speed.
Torpedos always seem to go the same speed no matter what(Stupid stock footage). Why should we assume they ever go slower then FTL?
What episode was Mike talking about?
I highly doubt that given the orders the fighters had been given.sonofccn wrote: Or they had already blasted down the shields by the time we looked. :)
Sacrifice of the Angels
SISKO: Forget the Klingons. Our job is to get to Deep Space Nine and prevent the Dominion reinforcements from coming through the wormhole, and that's what we're going to do. Attack fighters, tactical pattern Theta. Concentrate your fire on the Cardassian ships, and then split off into squadrons and run like hell.
The fighters are ordered to make a quick attack, and then run away, and it still doesn't change the fact that the fighters were expected to not be effective, and visuals show them unable to destroy unshielded ships.
There is no evidence of that, and there is a lot wrong with the battle in general like the lack of shields. If there had at least been a few shots i'd agree, but there were no shots fired at an obvious target that visuals showed to be single digit kilometers. The scene is just to badly done to get data from.sonofccn wrote: No they presumbly didn't fire because they couldn't get a good lock on the fighters not that the Cardassians were delibertly trying to lose the conflict.
This is heavily edited, but it shows exactly what Sisko was doing, and yes the visuals make no sense.sonofccn wrote: So did Sisko's fleet by that logic. The two armadas should have instantly been vaporised once a solitary vessel was breeched. Since they weren't I think its safe to say we can assume the Voyager episode Drive is in error. Likely a careless bit on part of the writer who put too big of a number without checking to see if it was consistent with the rest of the Verse.:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKnvRPIrl0
Sisko's fleet had to get to DS9 as fast as possible, and could not avoid the enemy fleet that was specifically there to stop/slow him down. Why the Dominion/Cardassian fleet was so close together, and no one turns on their shields makes no sense.
The fighters how ever we only have sacrifice of the Angels, and in universe are told they are pretty much useless.
The fact of the matter is DS9 visuals don't match up with the rest of the verse at least as badly if not worse then drive, heck they don't match up with other DS9 episodes often.. Warpcores going boom have always been a threat to be near, normally they seem to implode, and normally they are not being pushed as hard as they can go when they blow up. What we see is the Delta Flyer's warpcore lose containment when it is being pushed as hard as it can be.
The problem with your argument is that we should see the first wave of fighters make their first attack, and we have no reason to believe otherwise, and besides no one has shields up so why should we believe what we see is accurate?sonofccn wrote: Same with the Federation vessels as well. Neither fleet was shown overwhelmingly superior to the other. Likely we are only catching snippets of a raging fleet battle and shields on the various vessels had already been battered down.
It's the famous 4 lights episode.sonofccn wrote: What did they do then in the episode?
Picard goes off on a dangerous mission because the Cardassians are acting up, and possibly designing some really dangerous weapon that he is somehow uniquely suited to destroy.
Picard's replacement starts making all kinds of sudden and seemingly unneeded changes just before a possible war breaking out, acts like an ass, and does some seemingly conflicting/insane things like below.
JELLICO: Power transfer levels need to be upgraded by twenty percent. The efficiency of your warp coils is also unsatisfactory.
LAFORGE: Coil efficiency is well within specifications, Captain.
JELLICO: I'm not interested in the specs, Geordi. The efficiency needs to be raised by at least fifteen percent.
LAFORGE: Fifteen percent.
DATA: That is an attainable goal, but it will require realigning the warp coil and taking the secondary distribution grid offline.
JELLICO: Very good, Data. That's exactly what I want you to do.
LAFORGE: If we take this grid offline, we're going to have to shut down exobiology, the astrophysics lab and geological research.
JELLICO: We're not on a research mission. Get it done in two days.
DATA: I believe that is also an attainable goal. If we utilise the entire Engineering department, there should be sufficient manpower available to complete the task.
LAFORGE: Sure, if everybody works around the clock for the next two days.
JELLICO: Then you'd better get to it, Geordi. It looks like you have some work to do. Data.
LAFORGE: Commander, he's asked me to completely reroute half the power systems on the ship, change every duty roster, realign the warp coils in two days, and now he's transferred a third of my department to Security.
RIKER: If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone. Captain Jellico has made major changes in every department on the ship.
LAFORGE: Yeah, well, I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work, but the man isn't giving me the time I need to do the work. Someone's got to get him to listen to reason.
Somehow in spite of only having 2 thirds of his standard number of engineers he still got the job done, and seemingly got the normal maintenance done as well. Star Fleet engineers are gods like.
Voyager was only suppose to be taking the proverbial three hour tour, was not fully crewed, and was seemingly not fully supplied.sonofccn wrote: We also know from Voyager that denied ports of call a starship becomes very power hungry and they had to ration energy and everything just to scrape by. A testiment to Federation forsightedness that it could survive at all but hardly proof it doesn't require a logistic chain.
Considering the crew could just set down on a planet, and could fabricate, and install new warp coils would indicate that they can rebuild just about anything on the ship if they can get the raw materials. Sure it took a kiloton of a rare mineral, but they did it.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Sh ... rpcoil.jpg
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Gallicite
No, the hinges on Voyager are never talked about, and seemingly never damaged. They logically should be the thing on the ship most likely to break, but they never failed, and seemingly never need any type of maintenance. It's a joke.sonofccn wrote: Never?
Sounds like a regular run of the mill maintenance problem.Fair trade season 3 wrote: NEELIX: Well, you're not alone. None of the crew seemed especially enthusiastic about it. What's the problem with er, the plasma injectors? I've been getting myself up to speed on Federation warp propulsion.
TORRES: The plasma flow in the manifold seems to be constricted.
NEELIX: Ah. Have you thought of phase locking them to the dilithium matrix?
TORRES: That was the first thing I did.
Do you want quotes, or will Memory Alpha be good enough?sonofccn wrote: Where is it stated their primary source of fuel is through the bussard collectors? Do all starships even have them?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bussard_collector
They are designed to suck up large quantities of gas. Simple logic dictates they are used for collecting hydrogen, and we are specifically told they are doing just that a few times.
Last time I checked not all shuttles were warp capable.sonofccn wrote: The fact they build shuttles which are warp capable implies it isn't too mammoth of a cost to build a small warp drive. Granted your limited to lower warp speeds but that isn't a big concern, you let your big ships chase after any fleeing enemies.
The problem is warp drives at least the version Voyager had seemed to require rare and exotic materials. They were only able to find a kiloton of the stuff that makes up the warp coils on one planet They are hardly expendable craft.
You are suggesting that the federation make fighters in place of actually useful and effective ships. If they waste time and resources on what is at best a mild distraction they can't build the useful ships. On top of that you want to waste larger amounts of resources building carriers that aren't meant for battle, and you want to build easily targeted bases. Those nearly useless fighters you are so in love with are resource hogs while those capital ships can take care of themselves nearly indefinitely.sonofccn wrote: You talked of photon torpedoes and even using phasers you are still tying up mainweapons that otherwise could be used against the rest of my fleet. As well if you can prove the Cardies were using low powered beams please do so, they appeared to look like normal phasers fire to me and I see no reason to assume they were massively dialed down.
You can disagree all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you have no evidence that the fighters in Star Trek are practical, and we have hard evidence fighters in Star Trek are useless. The way they are used in DS9 proves that the UFP would have been better off just making more torpedos.sonofccn wrote: I would have to disagree.
I guess that's why the Cardassians shit themselves at the prospect of facing a single defiant. You seem to love trying to portray the outlier as the standard.sonofccn wrote: No. Ten Cardasion warships are overwhelmingly superior to one Defiant. She's a tough ship but she can be beaten.
Your talking about Sacrifice of the Angels, and at a point were the Defiant had already taken massive damage, correct?
No you are doing what STSW does, and that is ignore the evidence you don't like.sonofccn wrote: Since I'm basing it off of what occured in a Trek episode I can't agree with the above. :)
You've never seen Sacrifice of the Angels I take it, or you would not be saying the above because that isn't what happened. Sisko sent the flight trains knowing they were worthless, and wanted to annoy/insult the Cardassians, it's bluntly stated in the episode.sonofccn wrote: No Sisko wanted to harry and blooden the Cardassian warships and we see explosions across the ship's hulls and its done by a tiny squadron outmassed several times over by the Galor cruiser they are attacking.
The explosions we see are the weak and useless torpedos the flight trainers are firing, and not the Cardassian ships.
The Flight trainers only did as well as they did because the defending fleet let them.
There were multiple waves of flight trainers.
There is about 12 flight trainers per formation. There were about 4 or 5 waves of fighters. That's about one defiant worth of flight trainers, about a Defiants worth of crew according to memory alpha, and they couldn't kill one Cardassian war ship, and to top it off 48 fighters is the lowest number there possibly could be..
I suppose we can chalk up both sides not just launching torpedos in the enemies direction to VFX screw up since the visuals don't make sense with well known capabilities on both sides.
We are never told how big the standard crew of a defiant is. We know for a fact that only a third or forth of the crew will be on duty. Technically you only need the bridge crew to fly the ship. A Galaxy Class only needs a crew of 4 or 5 if the battle bridge is any indication.sonofccn wrote: Show me where its canoncially stated its typical crew compliment and we can talk.
Everting can be run from the bridge of the ship, and a Galaxy class battle bridge has 4 consoles, and a place for the captain. Many if not most of a Galaxy class's crew are pure science officers.sonofccn wrote: This is from where...?
Voyager was not fully crewed, and had entire decks turned off.
It seems like there was at least one episode of DS9 where only the main characters take out the defiant. You only need the engineering teams if something breaks, and only part of a crew will be on duty at any given time.
The engineering department's staff were cut while they had an insanely heavy work load as shown above. The third of the engineers had been transfered to security(which may explain why many security officers in star trek aren't that good).sonofccn wrote: Cutting an engineering team while mostly not at battle is far differnt from cutting your crew in half and than going up against a far more numerous battlefleet.
Remember Mesonofccn wrote: Where is this implied.
CRUSHER: Computer, we are going to apply precise diagnostic methodology. Once we've cataloged the symptoms, we will proceed to determine the illness, and find the cure. We will start with the assumption that I am not crazy. If I am, it won't matter one way or the other. Computer, read the entire crew roster for the Enterprise.
COMPUTER: Doctor Beverly Crusher.
CRUSHER: Have I always been the only member of the crew of the Starship Enterprise?
COMPUTER: Affirmative.
CRUSHER: If this was a bad dream, would you tell me?
COMPUTER: That is not a valid question.
CRUSHER: Like hell it's not.
[Corridor]
(checking all the rooms she passes)
CRUSHER: What date did I report on board?
COMPUTER: Stardate 41154. Fourteen hundred hours, three minutes.
CRUSHER: That sounds about right. Computer, is there more than one USS Enterprise?
COMPUTER: This vessel is the fifth starship to bear the name USS Enterprise. It is currently the only one in service.
CRUSHER: What is the primary mission of the Starship Enterprise?
COMPUTER: To explore the galaxy.
CRUSHER: Do I have the necessary skills to complete that mission alone?
COMPUTER: Negative.
CRUSHER: Then why am I the only crew member? Aha, got you there.
COMPUTER: That information is not available.
If one person had the proper training they could single handedly run the entire Enterprise-D, but realistically no one person will have the needed training.
There are only five seats on the battle bridge of the E-D. You likely only need 4 or 5 to fly a defiant as well.sonofccn wrote: To merely get from point A to point B? No. They've gotten crews down to tens of people for older vessels regulated to mudane and minor duties but that is far cry from going into battle, have reserve crews to replace fatalities, having repair crews standing by to try and patch your ship togather as it pounded over and over again.
GARAK: He's hoping to get them to break formation and so they'll after the Federation fighters. He knows the Jem'Hadar will stand their ground, but the Cardassians just might get angry enough to take the bait.sonofccn wrote: No. He sent them to give them a bloody nose. There is a difference.
It's bluntly stated that Sisko expects the flight trainers to merely ager the Cardassians.
We can tell that the Cardassian ships are not being badly damaged because they don't explode, have large hole in them, and shoot the crap out of the flight trainers.sonofccn wrote: And you can descern this how? By what criteria are you determining that these are only scratching the hull?
If the flight trainers were effective then the unshielded Cardassian ships would have been so damaged that they would not be able to return fire. It only takes one UFP torpedo to destroy a Galaxy class, and the same is true for a Galor.sonofccn wrote: So? Are you trying to claim a damaged ship could never, ever fire back?
A paper cut is annoying, but I'm in no danger of dyeing. Slash my belly open, and I'm out of the fight and likely going to die.
You 're the one making the claim that the fighters are effective, but you are right now admitting that you lack the evidence?sonofccn wrote: Well if you can show me a patch where the explosions fades away and we have pristine hull beneath you will have a case until then Occam's razor I believe sides with me.
The funny thing is the flight trainers are suppose to be using quantum torpedos as I recall.
And what does sensor range have to do with weapons range which has been confirmed to be at least in the low millions of km?sonofccn wrote: Which is great and all but they couldn't open fire through. When you can only shoot at 300,000 KMs having a ten light year line of sight isn't all that super terrific.
All your examples have flawed(to put it nicely) visuals, and you at least once misrepresented a battle. Your credibility is pretty low at the moment.sonofccn wrote: So a nonfederation weapon against a freaking star as part of a preplanned preperation to explode said star they can shoot at light minute ranges. So being generous thats two vs all of my examples, the Sacrifice of Angels battle, the Wounded and likely just about any other episode I bothered to look up.
Sacrifice of the angels has flawed visuals to the point of being useless. No one has shields up for no apparent reason for example, the ships are to close together to for fill their stated mission of stopping Sisko...
One of your examples is a Ferengi marauder which according to Quarck is not a war ship, and we know next to nothing about.
Why should I except your suspect evidence? You have not proven those scenes are accurately representing what is going on.
You seem to be confusing effective range with maximum range. Things like ECM which is heavily used(just turn on shields at worst), and the targets ability to maneuver limit ranges in Star Trek. There is no reason to assume effective ranges seen in Star Trek would be the effective ranges against other settings. You can keep trying to low ball combat ranges in Star Trek but that will just make you look like an idiot.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange-Trek.html
I've already proven that Federation Torpedos and Phasers are FTL You on the other hand have not proven that their speed varies.sonofccn wrote: Proof.
You can not see an object that is traveling at faster then light speeds until after it reaches you if at all for the same reason it is impossible to hear a super sonic thing go by. Therefore we are seeing the effects of phasers/torpedos/disrutors after they have hit and done their thing at least on the capital ship scale. Just seeing an object moving near the speed of light would be difficult at best.
That's not how warp tends to be describe though.sonofccn wrote: Warp drive folds space around your vessel allowing you to cheat physics. One might still interact with real space but I don't think strictly speaking it is real space.
Your knowledge of Star Trek has repeatedly been shown to be poor.sonofccn wrote: Navigational deflectors protect you from stray debris yes but no ones has claimed railguns don't work because of them to my knoweldge and they don't seem to stop ramming attacks.
As well I hope you are not trying to claim light speed strenght for the strenght for debris struck while at warp, there is no evidence to my recollection that inside the warp bubble space is moving any faster than the space outside it.
Aside from the obvious impulse drive propelling the ships easily to 70 to 80 % of the speed of light in atmosphere we have quotes that specifically state what will happen if a ships hit things at warp.
Broken Bow
TUCKER: Beautiful. Lock it off right there. (wipes a fingerprint off the warp console)
REED: I believe you missed a spot. Commander Tucker, Ensign Travis Mayweather. He just arrived.
TUCKER: Our space boomer.
TRAVIS: How fast have you gotten her?
TUCKER: Warp four. We'll be going to four five as soon as we clear Jupiter. Think you can handle it?
TRAVIS: Four point five.
REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.
TUCKER: Keep your shirt on, Lieutenant. Your equipment'll be here in the morning.
I could have sworn I posted this quote in this thread already, and you ignore the quote from Chain of Command... What ever your point of view the navigational deflectors are a very good defense against any unguided object.
You right, a class 8 probe is very different from a torpedo in that a torpedo has everything on the inside while the only class 8 probe I know of had a person inside with life support.sonofccn wrote: Which doesn't tell us anything. A photon torpedo is not a class 8 probe. Which you still don't seem to understand all the class 8 probe tells us is the Federation has the capability to build a torpedo that could travel at high warp speed. Stick to observed photon torpedo feats, at least than we can make guesses on what standard issue "shells" can do.
Now your memory is going.sonofccn wrote: A solitary data point does not an argument make.
Two missle/torpedos that are FTL from Generations and neither launched from something at warp, They also seem to have ranges in excess of those seen in The Wounded.
we have the class 8 probe that is FTL launched from a Star Base.
We have Basics which has both Federation and Kazon torpedos as FTL with at minimum millions of kilometers range.
We have many battles fought at warp.
DS9 visuals have so many mistakes that most people ignore DS9 visuals, but you've never watched it or much of Star Trek from what I'm reading in this thread.sonofccn wrote: Mistakes happen, what does the script describe of the scene in question.
The events are canon. There is a difference between the events and what is shown on screen.sonofccn wrote: That's life. What makes it on screen is canon, if we just start picking and choosing what we like we are no better than Stardestroyer.net.
The VFX teams at their best aren't trying to be 100% accurate, and because of this you can twist visuals to mean nearly anything you want them to mean.
The dialog tends to be the closest thing to what the author's intent can be. The characters should know what their equipment can do after all. While one comment may not necessarily be reliable similar statements backing each other up is.
The writers are the guys who actually create the universe, and the VFX teams are suppose to do what they say basically.sonofccn wrote: So are writers. Its the human condition. I mean frankly once we start going down this road what makes the writers correct? How do we know they have a better understanding of the Verse than say the FX guys who actually build it?
You lost me, what are you talking about?sonofccn wrote: I mean one writer might think engaging at warp at billions of kilometers against a stationary ship is a good idea without realizing it conflicts with the series as a whole. Even TOS strafed sublight targets from warp instead of blasting them relentlessly from multi-light hours.
You are making things up now since that in no way says what you claim, and you even admitted that visuals are not always correct.sonofccn wrote: you said:So what canon policy places dialoge above visuals or even makes a distinction between?Lucky wrote: Do you honestly want to go down the road of visuals are always right when Star Trek's own canon policy says otherwise?
No I quoted the Star Trek canon policy, and it says that neither dialog or visuals are canon. Only the EVENTS are canon.sonofccn wrote: This is not a canon policy. I'm also pretty sure scripts go through a lot of revision before they are filmed.
You are failing at simple logic here. If you have proof that certain sources of information can be drastically inaccurate then that source is secondary to the one that is more consistent. Visuals are all over the place, but dialog is more consistent.
It means we don't see what's actually going on because of it. Hence why event are canon, but not the details.sonofccn wrote: So both groups are limited by the medium. So? That doesn't make the visuals less canon. Intent in the end means nothing only what makes it up on the screen counts.
The event is not the detail that you have admitted can be extremely flawed. The events are the plot, the big picture, the general story line. The events are never wrong, but the details can be, and the dialog and visuals(meaning special effects) are the details.sonofccn wrote: That is an asinine reading of that quote. How praytell if only the events are canon but not the visuals or dialog can we know of the events?
Star Trek is like a docudrama or docufiction, hence the events are not exactly what is shown on screen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docudrama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docufiction
sonofccn wrote: You have provided two examples of lightminute or greater ranges. I presented four visuals showing far shorter firing, we have the Wounded, we have the Nomad example,etc. The only abnormal combat are your examples.
Shorter ranges do not disprove a maximum range that is observed multiple times. I have clearly been saying that Star Trek has repeatedly shown ranges in the Billions of kilometers, but does not use them in combat. Just because ships fight at shorter distances dose not in any way disprove the much longer ranges that could be used against other settings.sonofccn wrote: Then how come I have a mountain of examples showing a light second or less and you have two?
You on the other hand have been arguing(weather you realized it or not) that because there is evidence of shorter ranges used in combat these longer ranges don't exist That has to be one of the most asinine arguments I've ever heard..
ECM and maneuvers near or beyond the speed of light makes hitting things very hard. A large number of settings would not be able to effectively use ECM or dodge
Fine, but then you need to prove there aren't any massive goofs like in Sacrifice of the Angels, The Die is Cast, A Call To Arms....sonofccn wrote: No. You can not just ignore DS9 because you don't like what it shows. I don't believe in strictly literaly interpetating the visuals but I will not discarde canon material because I think its wrong.
TOS, The Omega Glorysonofccn wrote: When? Where?
A phaser beam hits a computer near Spock, and he is badly hurt. It was some sort of radiation poisoning type thing.
If reflexes didn't matter then Jellico wouldn't have cared who was piloting the shuttle.sonofccn wrote: No. We've observed them running, pressing buttons, moving, fighting etc. They are not super-human. They are bog standard completely ordinary humans with no hieghtened reflexes or endurance not found in a baseline human. At best the Titan's turn merely is an indicator of good starship sensor/handling not of humanity.
JELLICO: Been awhile since I flew one of these. You're a pilot yourself, aren't you Geordi?
LAFORGE: Yes, sir.
JELLICO: I began my career as a shuttle pilot, on the Jovian run. Jupiter to Saturn and back once a day, every day.
LAFORGE: Is that right? I was on that run myself for a while.
JELLICO: Then you must've done Titan's Turn.
LAFORGE: Oh, yeah. You set a course directly for Titan, hold it until you're just brushing the atmosphere, throw the helm hard over and whip around the moon at point seven c.
JELLICO: And pray like hell nobody saw you.
LAFORGE: You know, this trip into the nebula's going to need someone who can do Titan's Turn in their sleep. These mines need to be laid within two kilometres of the Cardassian ships. But the particle flux from the nebula will blind all the sensors except for this proximity detector. You're going to need one heck of a pilot to pull that off.
JELLICO: Is that you?
LAFORGE: I could do it, but truthfully, the man you want is Commander Riker. He's the best there is.
.7c = 70% the speed of light in a vacuum = about 210,000 km/s
Titan's upper atmosphere is about 975 km from it's surface
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfCTmv-9GkE
We have Picard dodge a conspicuously slow seeming phaser beam in "Conspiracy".
Dr.Mckoy seemingly ran something like 60 miles an hour in Star Track 5
In "Remember me" Dr.Crusher's subconscious creates a world based on her fears by manipulating a warp bubble she is trapped in.
Wesley Crusher can manipulate warp fields with his mind to the point of seemingly stopping time.
Then we have humans piloting ships while at FTL speeds.
Wesley is an extreme case of normal human abilities, and we would not expect an ability that is possible not consciously activated to be active at all times. You also rarely do things to the best of your abilities.
Obviously Star Trek humans are all super human since they are all rated for psychic powers, and we have the strange warp field manipulation powers, but if all humans have those powers then they aren't super.
It's kind of fun to find evidence of stuff the writers likely never intended.^_^
Torpedos seemingly always move at the same speeds relative to the ships. Visuals are pretty much meaningless because of the use of stock footage, and the fact that if they tried to show torpedos moving at near light speeds we would see nothing.sonofccn wrote: Sometimes but not always. There appears to be a time delay between firing and them kicking up to high speed or something.
All I'm seeing you do is ignore multiple data points in favor of of not backing up your argument with evidence. Stock footage is not evidence, and we know visuals are unreliable given you wouldn't see anything. Provide some evidence to back your claim that phaser and torpedos travel at different speeds.. You seem to do the old "because I say so" bit.sonofccn wrote: I choose to take canon over a single event.
I'm guessing Earht advanced much more quickly in the 70s, 80s, and 90ssonofccn wrote: I am going to ask for evidence for any of this uber tech, evidence for uber tech in terms of sensors and evidence that when Janeway and co say radar they really mean uber tech number six.
The Eugenics wars happen in the 90s. This alone tells you how much more advanced Star Trek is.
THe Millennium Gate to be finished in 2012.
Nomad was designed and launched in the early 2000s
Tomorrow Is Yesterday implies a trip to Saturn in the early 2000s
There seems to have been artificial gravity in the 1990s. TOS: "Space Seed"
Some things that may have pushed along human technical advancement
Roswel was Quark going back in time and crashing.
Carbon Creek crash was some Vulcans crashing(not time travelers).
You have Kirk going back in time to steal some whales, and leave behind a phaser as I recall.
There was at least one person who went back in time, and started a major technology corporation. VOY: "Future's End"
No matter what the ships have to be able to hide from optical sensors since we can see smaller objects in orbit with the naked eye, and modifications like Voyager did was likely just typing some stuff into a computer like we see in Descent.sonofccn wrote: To make those modifications Voyager did? Rather than simply by raising shields they are defacto invisible to radar.
To use a Warp drive, and not be blind while using it you need to have FTL sensors, but E.M radiation is limited to the speed of light. It would probably be a good idea to have an FTL sensor on a craft that only goes at Impulse since they tend to go at high fractions of the speed of light.sonofccn wrote: You will provide evidence for this assumption.
Now then, in order to create a warp drive you seemingly need to have some understanding of subspace(what ever that is), and fine control of gravity. That right there gives you sensors that that are not EM based. You don't even necessarily need a warp drive to create subspace communication systems(pen-pals)
The problem is that visual sensors are also what they had to hide from, and in Tomorrow is Yesterday they had already been identified visually. It doesn't make sense to hide from only one form of sensor when you know they will likely just be using optical telescopes to look for you as well. Stealth was not unknown in 1969sonofccn wrote: On Radar which is not usually refered to as the visual wavelenght/spectrum.
I find it a rather asinine idea to assume a group has a technology they just don't use even when it would be useful for no reason.sonofccn wrote: Why assume the reverse? If you have evidence provide it until then stop assuming galactic societies haven't progressed beyond radar.
Many FTL systems(or at least what is done with them) do not necessitate FTL sensors, or at least ones that have anything to do with real space.
It's very relevant in that it is a Sci-Fi setting where most galactic powers lack even modern Earth's technological level.sonofccn wrote: I've read it. Its a cute story but it has no bearing on our argument.
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck, and bleeds like a duck then I highly doubt it is a lionsonofccn wrote: No. Provide evidence they use radar, not something thematicly like radar, otherwise this argument disintergrates under its own weight. You wish to claim they have lightspeed only sensors you must prove it.
It doesn't matter how powerful your weapons are if you can't hit the target. If 40K ships are really are zipping around at high factions of c then I highly doubt a human can reliably hit the other ship, and may not be able to see anything. Really when you read enough 40K fluff you start to wonder if things run solely on belief.sonofccn wrote: They aren't. They rely on brute strength and firepower not finess.
That is actually realistic, well sort of. Real world militaries give their soldiers knives, tomahawks, small shovels, and such as secondary weapons.sonofccn wrote: You are talking about a society that gives its elite soldiers chainsaws and electrofied meele weapons as good secondary weapons. Logic, rationality, etc are all left at the door for 40k.
You're kind of taking that situation out of context I think. She is talking to a friend of Picard, Why should she worry, and not being able to read someone is a fetish for her's.sonofccn wrote: Yes. She could read them however she can't always pierce so deeply.So finding what she presumes to be a human she finds it odd but not unduly alarming that he can completely hide his thoughts from her. Judging from her phrasing one could also assume she has met others who have attempted but merely hadn't been as succesful as the holo character. So no I don't think Troi could just walk past Palpy and peer into his mind.TNG manhunt wrote: MRS. TROI
This is the most remarkable man.
I have never met anyone quite
like him.
PICARD
I don't suppose you have.
MRS. TROI
He's strong. I feel no thoughts
from him... nothing. I've never
known a man so able to keep his
true feelings completely hidden.
There are like 150 species in the UFP, and we only see a tiny percentage of them.sonofccn wrote: TK is extremely rare in Federation citizens. Betazoids can't do it nor can Vulcans as far as I'm aware.
That does not change the fact that Star Trek powers have anti-TK technologies, and a guy like Quark can spot it on sight.
It's a stated power humans have in Star Trek.sonofccn wrote: Force precog is a stated and observed power and is fully beyond betazoid capability. Any impartial comparison must at least note it.
The problem is that this procog didn't help save the Jedi, or the Sith, and it never seems to factor in to them winning battles.
I've never seen anything that points to Spock be unusually powerful.sonofccn wrote: Spock being the only one ever to display this power hints at him being abnormal and more powerful than regular breed.
Except everyone has some force power, and there are people who are "strong" in the force who never get training. The force is described as an energy field that links and is generated by all living things.sonofccn wrote: Actually it was presumbly the dying vulcans who broadcasted, Spock was merely a reciever. Obiwan's disturbance in the force line hints at a far greater ability since we have no reason to assume anyone on Alderean was projecting any thoughts/emotions.
Titan's Turn is performed manually. What Titan's turn does imply is the likely hood of time dilation technology.sonofccn wrote: Very good sensors and controls on the shuttle but humans are humans. Unchanged and not super-human.
LAFORGE: Oh, yeah. You set a course directly for Titan, hold it until you're just brushing the atmosphere, throw the helm hard over and whip around the moon at point seven c.
.7c is 210,000 kilometers a second
1/210,000= 4.7619048E-06= .0000047619048
1 km every .0000047619048 seconds
Titan's upper atmosphere is about 975 kilometers from the surface.
975*.0000047619048= 0.00464285718
The pilot of the shuttle will have about 0.00464285718 seconds before hitting Titan, but human reaction times are about 0.19 seconds for light and and 0.16 for sound if I'm reading this right. I'm not sure even world record holders could do it.
http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/ ... 20Stimulus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsU5AMxvlKg#t=45s
The Federation at the time of Voyager could make cybernetic interfaces. The EMH's design is somehow different from what Star Fleet has at the time in an undefined way.sonofccn wrote: So it doesn't exist in the "Modern" time period and the very fact it existed at all seemed to surprise the hell out of the EMH. Once again Trek people don't go into modifiying themselves they prefer to remain "pure" and the very fact that future Janeway has a chunk of alloy in her brainpan is enough to rouse the EMH's curosity.
Actually when someone throws out large and vague numbers that sound larger then makes sense they normally are hyperbole.sonofccn wrote: That would not logically being taken by what was said.
Standard humans can block blaster bolts just like Jedi in Star Wars.sonofccn wrote: A single race in a certain narrow field possibly.
Many races(humans included) in Star Trek have Jedi like abilities, and many surpass force users in the telepathic areas.
The one force power we see very little of is telekinesis in Star Trek, but at the same time telekinesis is implied not to be uncommon in Star Trek since characters are aware of what anti-TK devices look like. Force users often don't make use of TK or any force powers.
Vorta,sonofccn wrote: Which race again can move things with their mind?
possibly Vulcans (Star Trek 3),
Ocampa,
Platonians do to Kironide,
what ever Gem was,
possibly the Vain,
Humans after being exposed to certain things,
The genetically engineered children on Darwin station imply a knowledge of what genetic facts grant such abilities.
Since when do canon fodder have force powers in Star Wars? Every Jedi, Sith, and Night sister has years of training behind them, and is a rare and elite unit. There are only something like 10,000 Jedi, 2 Sith, and maybe 10 to 20 Night Sisters as of the Clone Wars.sonofccn wrote: Even canon fodder can call on the force to move objects, Troi can't.
It's in either Star Wars the clone wars season 3 episode 5 or 6. At least one of Duchess Satine's guard deflects blaster bolts with his staff.sonofccn wrote: Where praytell is this stated? I don't remember a lot of people deflecting blaster bolts in the movies that weren't Jedi.
It proves that size matters, and that there are limits to what force users can do.sonofccn wrote: A solid chunk of metal can be quite heavy. So?
It took a lot of concentration to do what they did, and they were both physically straining.sonofccn wrote: I don't recall them struggling heavily, in the same vein of Yoda in the swamp, to throw senate seats around.
What does Troi have to do with high end force users being limited?sonofccn wrote: Yes lifting far heavier things than Troi ever could with her mind.
Give her the right drug and she would be able to throw down with the best of them.
Star Trek 3 seems to have some sexy Vulcan priestesses using TK. It would certain explain Vulcan strength.sonofccn wrote: Neither Vulcans or Betazoids have TK and that was on the lower end of a pysker ability. On the extreme high end they are reality warpers and if discovered are supposed to be destroyed on sight along with the planet their on.
The problem is that Trek reality warpers is they can do things like make it so you never existed in the first place, or kill your entire species light years away, and nuke it from orbit is likely not to work. It really reflects badly if you can nuke reality warpers from orbit.
Except that humans aren't counted as psychic, but have psychic powers.sonofccn wrote: Relativly speaking they should make up a tiny minority. Telephatic races appear to be the exception not the norm in the Federation.
As we can't know the population of the Federation beyond the fact it has well over 9,000,000,000.
Even assuming only a modern Earth level of medical technology we can safely assume that each home world has at least one billion people living on it, and there has been at least one insanely overpopulated planet.sonofccn wrote: We don't know. We don't know how many betazoids there are. We can not say there are X many.
It is safe to assume that each race has at least 1,000,000,000.
Where No Man Has Gone Beforesonofccn wrote: And as observed throughout the course of Trek human psychic power on average is about 0 watts. It is a very rare human with psychic powers in Trek, far more rare than a jedi or psycker in thier respective Verse.
DEHNER: It is a fact that some people can sense future happenings, read the backs of playing cards and so on, but the esper capacity is always quite limited.
That sure sounds like psychic powers on the level of a Jedi to me.
40K psykers have to be extremely rare.
It means the Federation has extensively studied psychics, and know exactly how those powers work. The UFP can engineer humans with extreme psychic powers remember(Darwin station).sonofccn wrote: Which proves tricorders are very good not that the Federation is tripping over telepaths.
How would you identify betazoids unless you were told they are betazoids? A large number of species outwardly appear to be human.sonofccn wrote: And conversely the Federation has made no attempt to distinctly utilize betazoids in their armed forces. How many have we actually observed in starfleet? Is it even more than a hundred? Frankly its losing proposition. The Federation simply doesn't think along those lines. They don't fight the way you want them to fight, they don't act the way you want them to act.
How do you figure Armus had powers far beyond the standard being?sonofccn wrote: I put it in quotes for a reason. However he has powers far beyond a standard being and doesn't work for the Federation.
What does it matter weather or not Armus was a UFP member?
Voy: Cold Firesonofccn wrote: Quotes?
TANIS: Nearby. But she's so different from the entity you knew. He was only interested in maintaining the status quo. He kept our people servile and weak. Suspiria taught us how to develop our psycho-kinetic skills that had lain dormant for so long. We have abilities far beyond anything you can imagine.
KES: Like what?
TANIS (telepathically): We can enhance life. And that's only the beginning, Kes. I have to return to the station. We’ll talk again.
TANIS: And I'm sure you care for them very much. I'm sure they're wonderful people. They certainly seem that way to me, but it's time that you began to accept how different you are from them. The people on this ship, they live their lives trapped inside their primitive skulls, depending on flesh and bone to tell them what the universe is like. They don't know what it is to see beyond the physical. Touch it. This is how they know the universe. They touch the flower and nerve impulses travel up their arm to the brain, and in their mind they sense the moisture of the petals, the texture of the leaves, the sharpness of the thorns, and think they know what it feels like. But they don't. Now touch it. Reach out with your thoughts. Feel it for the very first time. Think of nothing but the flower. It's the only object in the universe. Know it. Know it in a way only an Ocampa can. Can you see it?
KES: Yes. It's more than seeing. It's more than touching. I know this flower.
TANIS: You can do more. Reach out, feel all the life in this room.
KES: Yes, I can feel it! I know them all! They're so beautiful!
TANIS: They can be more beautiful. Bring the fire! How did it feel?
KES: They're dead. They're all dead. Amazing.
TANIS: You felt life, you embraced its essence with your mind and then you transformed it. There's nothing else like it in the universe.
KES: I killed those plants. Just like I almost killed Tuvok. But I don't want to hurt anybody.
TANIS: A place the humanoids on this ship call a subspace layer. A place of pure thought, pure energy. A place of the mind. Think about it, Kes. When you're ready, Suspiria will embrace you. Goodnight.
Then we disagree.sonofccn wrote: We'll have to disagree then.