Lucky wrote: Mr. Oragahn wrote: And perhaps that's because they're dumb?
They did it in Déjà Q. Why the hell would they suddenly forget about that clever trick when having to move a massive debris made of glowing whateverium?
Plot fiat hello!
Limitation on the technology/ship that we the viewer don't need to know makes more sense. The E-D wasn't exactly designed to tow moons and white dwarfs to begin with.
It does not matter. They did it once, the scenario was very similar.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: O'brien didn't need Q. Or perhaps he's a Q in hiding?
You're just being silly now.
O'brien was a member of the E-D's crew at the time they did the mass lowering trick, had access to the people involved, and as an engineer/tech had reason to ask.
Nice to see how suddenly
he could do such a trick because he was part of the crew that lowered the mass of a moon, yet how funny that that same crew couldn't think about doing the same on that glowing fragment.
Anyone or thing could actually be a Q in disguise in Star Trek...
So we can't know that discoveries or hero luck aren't just Q tricks. Gut.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Not if they didn't think it could be safely done to an object other than the ship for which the system would have been built.
The issue of safety never came up in either episode, but then failure was not an option.
Many issues didn't come up. Then again we have a contradiction you're obtusely denying, so I'm allowing enough of a margin to get things cleaned.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Let's see the other end of the rainbow here. Geordi didn't have to think much to see that lowering the mass could be down with a "low level warp field". You know, almost nonchalantly. And this doesn't in any way dispute the fact that they can do it on their own ship. The very fact that Geordi didn't have to go through, like, the entire knowledge of the UFP on astrophysics to find the one true trick to lower the mass of an object, but on the contrary thought about it within ten seconds after Q's vague suggestion is another proof that there's no reason why the UFP wouldn't use it.
Look, O'brien easily thinks about it, and doesn't really struggle to apply that trick to a station not built as an instellar starship. Geordi doesn't even think hard about it, he just says oh let's apply a warp field and voila, mass lightened.
Geordi had to modify systems in unknown ways. He likely had to use systems in ways that they weren't designed to work like O'brien did.
And? Where is the problem here? He had to modify systems not only to cast a warp field on something else than the very ship he's working on, but to move an object of impossible mass which was probably a first for the E-D.
So it is not surprising that they had to apply modifications. As per Trek, it's quite a luck that they could actually achieve modifications.
Now, how does that negate all I said?
It does not. Once you'll admit that it was a relatively easy thing to pull, especially in such an unnatural way, you'll simply come to the conclusion that there is zero reason for this ML warp field capacity not to be a by default property on all starships.
Perhaps you should consider how long it takes to actually theorize a new branch of advanced physics, verify it, try to find an application and then design a system and finally built it after numerous tests. Then you'll concede that they have to have that capacity by default with all warp drives. You just can't invent such a thing out of the blue and apply it in some unnatural way.
It does not matter. Geordi didn't even make any particular effort to come with the idea. He didn't work for days, months or years to come with a mass lightening tech and then a trick to apply it to very complex and advanced systems.
No.
He already knew that ML was a property of warp fields, and so all he had to do was to cast such a field in an unusual way. That is all. And the very fact that it was pulled out in the timespan of a fraction of an episode means that the UFP would be total retards for having engineers uncapable of building warp drives with such properties.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Frankly, this denial of yours is flabbergasting and tiring, and just to defend your opinion, you're ready to argue that the entire Federal community of scientists is as dumb as potato bags.
This is not serious.
I'm not the one who is arguing that because a screwdriver can be used as a hammer it must be a normal use of the tool, and that it was designed to be used that way.
You seem to be very much out of touch with reality in this case. It's stupidly easy to use things in ways not intended, and the real world has plenty of examples of stuff being designed for one purpose, but later being used for others.
Bravo!
You just admitted that both technologies exist.
If we know that we can use a screwdriver as a hammer, it would be quite surprising that we would have not invented a hammer yet.
Think about it.
You know that doing such with a screwdriver is going to work because the principle is known and proven. You know about the effects of force applied in certain ways. You know you need mass and acceleration.
As we see, Geordi already knew about the mass lightening property of a warp field. How could he know that?
More, how could he or any UFP engineer know that and yet not have made that part of any warp drive, since
it's a property of a warp field!?
See, your position doesn't make sense.
You're essentially arguing that Geordi invented a complete new branch of physics out of the blue and McGuyvered a MLT from the equivalent of spare parts.
It's like Mc Guyver trying to build hand grenades from pinecones, yet no scientist would have understood the principles of explosives and built a grenade before him.
That's so ludicrous. It really is.
The fact remains that someone who you are claiming knowingly uses mass low tech and knew that he could apply said tech to the situation did not think to use said tech, and no one thought it odd. You don't see the problem with that logic?
Did Geordi get his memory wiped out. So perhaps O'brien is a Q and Geordi a droid?
No, that's what we call plot crap, inconsistencies.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: No! Because DS9 is not a space ship.
By this reasoning there are no ships in Babylon 5. The fact of the matter is DS-9 was designed to tool around the Bajoran system.
Proof?
And proof that it was as to be as much efficient as a star
ship?
Different goals make for different systems. A Ferrari will be built to move faster than a SCUD launcher, yet both are deemed to need some mobility.
A space station still remains a
station that may need *some* mobility from time to time.
Contrary to a starship where mobility is at the core of the design.
Heck, DS9 was built with a fusion core, so that alone would also prove problematic in the prospect of creating warp fields.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Unless it's so usual to starships that they don't really think about it now, and unless it's so known that it's entirely related to warp that it's not even worth arguing about it when it comes to a station that doesn't have any warp capability.
Plus I don't really care about the extrapolations of what characters should have said (which could have happened off screen) when what happened proves my point.
We are talking about engineers who are intimately familiar with the workings of the StarShip drives like Miles, and not some random pilot.
Doesn't matter. Real logic trumps that.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Cause he's an engineer and then only him would have throught of something like that. How many times Scotty, Geordi and O'brien found solutions to their captain's problems, when all the captains asked was "can you get us out of there?" essentially?
Do you realize you are claiming claiming there was only one engineer there, and that science officers wouldn't know how to do the same things in theory at least? YOu are claiming that only one person knew how to do their job.
There's generally one single genius that comes with the super duper ideas in Trek, so cut that.
"Do you realize you are claiming claiming there was only one engineer there, and that science officers wouldn't know how to do the same things in theory at least?"
Huh, and what about UFP's entire scientific community? A sac of dumb pots who can't imagine a single second building warp drives with MLT inside, while one dude has no problem to think about it within ten seconds, and another doesn't really take much longer to think about applying a subspace field to do the same (when warp fields are subspace fields)?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Aside the fact that you didn't put the right quote headers when quoting people, your conclusion is absurdly wrong. Not to say that we've seen ships flying at warp at STL, accelerating to speeds well beyond anything that could be achieved on fusion thrusters alone.
Warp =/= impulse
Every case of sub-light speed warp I recall it was stated.
What makes you thing impulse drives are fusion thrusters?
Huh, because they are powered by fusion and can't really count on anything better?
And in the movies, we did see ships achieve STL warp speeds, with the sublight engines glowing as well, proving that both can work together. In fact, you still need regular trust to move into the warped reality, otherwise you just sitting in a warped space but not getting anywhere.