Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Did a related website in the community go down? Come back up? Relocate to a new address? Install pop-up advertisements?

This forum is for discussion of these sorts of issues.
Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Picard » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:51 am

Although we hear many times these ships move at "high point c", when do we actually see this happen?
Dialogue > visuals.
When we see ships moving at "Full Impulse", we can actually see them move onscreen, and it's usually a couple hundred meters per second...
Relative to camera, that is. But we usually don't have any static reference points, and when we do, ship is likely to move slower (1 c is 300 000 km/s. 0.8 c - full impulse, according to Voyager - is 240 000 c. Earth's diameter is around 13 000 km. Meaning that ship will traverse more than one Earth's diameter every 0.05 seconds - or 20 diameters per second. Standard framerate for flash movies is 24 fps.). Also, we see them moving at few meters per second (again, relative to camera) in warp, but this time there is difference in the fact that during warp, velocity of ship is large enough for stars to serve as reference points. Also, if you remember TNG, there are some shots throught windows where we do see stars moving, but very slowly.
It's not like most sci-fi doesn't have some sort of variant upon these technologies. If your ship can lift off without scorching the ground under it, chances are you're using MLT or anti-gravity. Probably both.
I think that negative gravity might be better term, since it works only between ship and ground - we don't see either ship or ground falling apart. But it is similar to constant that Einstein put into his gravitational equation when it became apparent that static universe (which he, at the time, strongly believed in) is bound to collapse. It actually showed anti-gravitational effects that worked over large distance, but not when two objects were close to one another, thus allowing static universe with physical world as we see it. Also, it just (while writing this) occured to me that Star Trek antigravity might be just a variation on warp field - and warp drive itself is (I think I have written this somewhere) some kind of gravitational drive, where large spacetime distortion (similar to black hole) sits in front of ship's bubble and tows it.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:32 pm

Picard wrote:
Me wrote:Although we hear many times these ships move at "high point c", when do we actually see this happen?
Dialogue > visuals.
What I meant was, people often assume "Full Impulse" is high fraction of c, but where does that come from, since even when we see them go to "Full Impulse" next to stationary objects, they aren't going that fast...
And we know from TOS that Warp does not start at 1, but you can go at Warp 0.1...

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Picard » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:00 am

Maybe "full impulse" in some cases is actually "full impulse without mass lightening"? It is quite easy to see how warp drive can be used for sublight flight, but it may be that, until certain speeds, simple reaction drive (as far as I know, impulse drive functions similarly to rockets) is more energy efficient?

As for "where does it come from", we often hear about starships being helluva fast even in normal space. Voyager gives 0.8 and 0.6 c, at different times - explainable by possible damage to drive. TOS implies that even impulse-drive-only ships can achieve warp flight, albeit less efficiently, which seems to suggest that warp and impulse drive operate on similar, if not same, principles - which also fits nicely with already mentioned issue of "any subspace whazzit of the week completely nullifying warp and impulse". TMP gives acceleration of 362 962 963 km/h^2, or 28 006.4 m/s^2 - that is 2852 G's, if I'm correct.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:57 pm

Actually, Picard, in TOS's BoT, Scotty says "Theirrr Powerr is simpel impulse"...
He does not say drive, he mentions power...
So did he mean they ran on fusion, or something else?
Hard to tell...

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5837
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:00 pm

The idea that you can have FTL on fusion powered impulse is what most fans think of as a way to reconcile what Scotty says with the fact that the Romulans would never have been a threat to anyone or anything, if they'd only been able to manage sublight speeds. Given that the Romulans definitely have warp-driven starships in ST:ENT, it pretty much is a given that's what Scotty meant.

Now some people have tried to claim that the warbird in BoT only went sublight the whole fight ignore the fact that even at full warp speed, the Enterprise took almost five minutes to travel from one outpost to another, and when you couple that with the statements of how long before the Romulan ship would take to get from where Outpost 4 was to the Neutral Zone, the ship is clearly travelling at the equivalent of low-warp speeds.

Later on in "The Deadly Years", several warbirds surround and keep up with the Enterprise at warp 5.
-Mike

Lucky
Jedi Master
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Lucky » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:07 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Although we hear many times these ships move at "high point c", when do we actually see this happen?
When we see ships moving at "Full Impulse", we can actually see them move onscreen, and it's usually a couple hundred meters per second...
Wouldn't "Star Trek: First Contact" indicate that warp fields make Star Trek ships look like they are going slower then they actually are?

Best videos i could find
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_Aq0Yv ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7C8TLK2 ... re=related

[Phoenix cockpit]

LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.
RIKER: They should be out there right now. We better break the warp barrier in the next five minutes if we're going to get their attention.
LAFORGE: Main cells are charged and ready.
RIKER: Let's do it.
COCHRANE: Engage.
LAFORGE: Warp field is looking good. Structural integrity is holding.
RIKER: Speed, twenty thousand kilometres per second.
COCHRANE: Sweet Jesus!
(Cochrane has spotted the Enterprise in orbit)
RIKER: Relax, Doctor. I'm sure they're just here to give us a send-off.

[Enterprise-E engineering]

(Picard is on the Borg bio-bed)
DATA: I am bringing the external sensors on-line.
(the Phoenix appears on the viewscreen)
[Phoenix cockpit]

RIKER: Thirty seconds to warp threshold. ...Approaching light-speed.
COCHRANE: We're at critical velocity.

[Enterprise-E engineering]

DATA: Quantum torpedoes locked.
BORG QUEEN: Destroy them.
(three torpedoes fly towards the Phoenix)
BORG QUEEN: Watch your future's end.
(the torpedoes miss)
BORG QUEEN: Data!
DATA: Resistance is futile.
(Data breaks the plasma coolant conduit and engineering begins to flood. Picard grabs a hanging tube and begins to climb. The Borg Queen grabs Picard's leg. Data rises from the coolant and pulls the Bog Queen off Picard and throws her into the coolant)
[Phoenix cockpit]

RIKER: That should be enough. Throttle back. Take us out of warp.
COCHRANE: Is that Earth?
LAFORGE (OC): That's it.
COCHRANE: It's so small.
RIKER: It's about to get a whole lot bigger.

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2042
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by 2046 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:33 am

Where do the 0.8c and 0.6c figures come from for Voyager impulse?

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5837
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:11 am

I don't know about .8 c, but the .6 c likely comes from "Fair Haven":

SEVEN: I believe it was formed by the collision of two neutron stars. The wavefront is travelling at , and it a velocity of two hundred thousand kilometres per second extends for three point six light years.

CHAKOTAY: How long before it hits?

SEVEN: Approximately fifteen hours.


That's approximately 67 percent of the speed of light.
-Mike

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Picard » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:58 am

0.8 c comes from "Timeless".

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:38 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:I don't know about .8 c, but the .6 c likely comes from "Fair Haven":

SEVEN: I believe it was formed by the collision of two neutron stars. The wavefront is travelling at , and it a velocity of two hundred thousand kilometres per second extends for three point six light years.

CHAKOTAY: How long before it hits?

SEVEN: Approximately fifteen hours.


That's approximately 67 percent of the speed of light.
-Mike
The quote says the wavefront is travelling at that speed, not Voyager...

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2042
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by 2046 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:58 am

Picard wrote:0.8 c comes from "Timeless".
What, "they must've hit the ice at full impulse" assessed by the 9 million kilometers divided by screen time? I don't think that's valid, if that's where the calc comes from. They didn't hit the ice very fast.

As for "Fair Haven", I would surmise that the same thing that disabled warp would've also affected impulse, per the established relationship between the technologies (e.g. mass lightening whatever). We've seen Romulan ships at .7something per the display in "The Defector"[TNG3].

Lucky
Jedi Master
Posts: 2239
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Lucky » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:19 am

2046 wrote:
Picard wrote:0.8 c comes from "Timeless".
What, "they must've hit the ice at full impulse" assessed by the 9 million kilometers divided by screen time? I don't think that's valid, if that's where the calc comes from. They didn't hit the ice very fast.

As for "Fair Haven", I would surmise that the same thing that disabled warp would've also affected impulse, per the established relationship between the technologies (e.g. mass lightening whatever). We've seen Romulan ships at .7something per the display in "The Defector"[TNG3].
When Voyager in Timeless crashes it seems to be going about as fast as the Phoenix does in First Contact, and the Phoenix was going 20,000+ kilometers a second to possibly light speed even if it didn't look like it.

If you want to take visuals as reliable sources of information then you have to take all visuals

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:25 pm

The Phoenix in FC was in space, so our only visual aid were far away stars.
In Timeless, Voyager crashes on a planet, and we can clearly see the ground as it crashes relative to Voyager, and it's not going fast enough to even approach the Phoenix's speed in FC...

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5837
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:31 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:I don't know about .8 c, but the .6 c likely comes from "Fair Haven":

SEVEN: I believe it was formed by the collision of two neutron stars. The wavefront is travelling at , and it a velocity of two hundred thousand kilometres per second extends for three point six light years.

CHAKOTAY: How long before it hits?

SEVEN: Approximately fifteen hours.


That's approximately 67 percent of the speed of light.
-Mike
The quote says the wavefront is travelling at that speed, not Voyager...
Yes, but it puts an upper limit on Voyager's speed in that episode, and the ship was not being run down by the wave front from behind, but was being caught from the side as seen in this graphic:

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... VD_042.jpg

If you can get video of this, you might actually be able to calculate an impulse power speed for Voyager from this.
-Mike

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

Post by Picard » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:01 pm

2046 wrote:
Picard wrote:0.8 c comes from "Timeless".
What, "they must've hit the ice at full impulse" assessed by the 9 million kilometers divided by screen time? I don't think that's valid, if that's where the calc comes from. They didn't hit the ice very fast.

As for "Fair Haven", I would surmise that the same thing that disabled warp would've also affected impulse, per the established relationship between the technologies (e.g. mass lightening whatever). We've seen Romulan ships at .7something per the display in "The Defector"[TNG3].
There's no calc for the "Timeless", it was stated in the dialogue that full impulse is 0.8 c.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive

Post Reply