Darkstar's warp ramming page - an idea

[Picard]

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarpram.html

The problem for impulse ramming is obvious. Earlier we used various speeds for Voyager and calculated her kinetic energy based on her normal mass. But, if she only got up to high speed by reducing her mass, then the associated kinetic energy calculations are bogus. For example, let's assume that Voyager could reach ten kilometers per second by herself, without mass-lightening. But, let's say we find an example of her accelerating to half the speed of light. By conservation of momentum, her mass at that velocity would only be 46,700 kilograms . . . 46.7 metric tonnes, or 1/15000th what it originally was!

That said, higher-velocity ramming would probably still be more advantageous. Recall that changes to momentum involve a linear relationship between mass and velocity, whereas kinetic energy involves the square of the velocity. In other words, the more speed you get the more it counts for the purposes of KE. As proof, we can simply calculate the difference between full-mass Voyager at 10km/s versus 1/15000th-mass Voyager at half the speed of ligh

Problem with that is that it would be logical to assume that mass lightening isn't always the same - say, ship at 0.1 c has only 15% of its mass, but at 0.5 c mass lightening reduces its mass to, say 0.6%. Meaning that kinetic energy always stays the same.

[Praeothmin]

Another problem is that we've never heard of mass lightening at SL speeds or on Impulse in the shows or in the movies, IIRC...

[Picard]

True. But I think that it does exist - first, Voyager's maximum impulse speed is stated to be 0.8 c. Refit Enterprise also demonstrates acceleration of over 100 million m/s^2 (over 10 million g's).

If we take acceleration of 100 000 000 m/s^2 for Galaxy class ship with its probable (read: guess) mass of 4 million metric tons (derived from Intrepid class - it has less free space than GCS, but is built to be light) then it is force of 4 x 10e17 N. To pass 50 000 000 m (in one secund) it needs 2 x 10e25 J. Therefore, continuous acceleration without mass lightening requires 2 x 10e25 W, not counting energy expended on other systems (SIF, life support, gravity, etc). 12.75 billion GW is 1.275 x 10e19 W. So, either Star Trek is wanktastically powerful, I f***** up somwhere in calculations, or there is mass lightening involved.

(To put in perspective, 1.275 x 10e19 W is 3 gigatons per second, and 2 x 10e25 W is 4.78 petatons per second. So, either Starfleet ships use no mass lightening, Die is Cast is DET, and everything else is wrong, or Starfleet ships do use mass lightening, Die is Cast is NDF, and everything else is right. Althought I don't even believe this statement is true - from what I remember, there is some pretty crazy stuff still out there).

[Praeothmin]

Well, the 12.75 Billion GW quote was stated when the E-D used no shields or weapons, was on Impulse at very low SL speeds, they weren't even at Warp...
So a fully accelerating E-D could indeed be generating 2 x 10e25 W, who knows?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Another problem is that we've never heard of mass lightening at SL speeds or on Impulse in the shows or in the movies, IIRC...

We did. Twice. The moving of DS9, and the E-D's trick on the small moon in Deja Q, by applying a warp field. Unless I'm missing something here.

[Praeothmin]

Another problem is that we've never heard of mass lightening at SL speeds or on Impulse in the shows or in the movies, IIRC...

We did. Twice. The moving of DS9, and the E-D's trick on the small moon in Deja Q, by applying a warp field. Unless I'm missing something here.

Ah, no!
What you mention here are two "special" tricks, one using the shields of the station to create a Subspace field, but it was clear it isn't something that is done everyday, and it's the same with the small moon...
Neither cases were normal, both needed some modifications to perform, which shows that mass lightening at Impulse isn't standard, and more than likely not used for travel at STL speeds...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Another problem is that we've never heard of mass lightening at SL speeds or on Impulse in the shows or in the movies, IIRC...

We did. Twice. The moving of DS9, and the E-D's trick on the small moon in Deja Q, by applying a warp field. Unless I'm missing something here.

Ah, no!
What you mention here are two "special" tricks, one using the shields of the station to create a Subspace field, but it was clear it isn't something that is done everyday, and it's the same with the small moon...
Neither cases were normal, both needed some modifications to perform, which shows that mass lightening at Impulse isn't standard, and more than likely not used for travel at STL speeds...

Ah yes!
The fact that they easily pulled that on DS9 is ample proof that it can be replicated if designed from the beginning in to the drive system, which I don't see any reason why it couldn't. The fact that O'brien could make a system not meant to be used that way, do something like that, and that O'brien saw that it would work, is another element of evidence that there's no reason that the UFP would not put it on their ships. Considering how fast it was implemented into a station not meant to be moved, and built by another civilization, it's quite a piece of cake and would be very stupid of Trek designers not to use it.
Besides, warp drives also form subspace bubbles.
As for the E-D, again, how can it be rejected? They merely applied to a big object what they generally apply to the ship.
I see zero reason to reject any of them.

[2046]

One could also point to the ever-present Voyager issue of any subspace whatzit-of-the-week completely nullifying warp and impulse. That begs for subspace technobabble with regards to impulse.

[Praeothmin]

The fact that they easily pulled that on DS9 is ample proof that it can be replicated if designed from the beginning in to the drive system, which I don't see any reason why it couldn't.

First, it was done through the shields, not the station's engines.
Second, the fact that they did not simply "flip a switch", but had to perform some modifications show that, while it isn't something out of their reach, it isn't something they normally used either...

One could also point to the ever-present Voyager issue of any subspace whatzit-of-the-week completely nullifying warp and impulse. That begs for subspace technobabble with regards to impulse.

I wasn't aware of these "whatzit-of-the-week" doing that.
The real question is "how"?
Did it affect all propulsion attempts, or just Warp and Impulse, and how did it do it?

[Lucky]

One could also point to the ever-present Voyager issue of any subspace whatzit-of-the-week completely nullifying warp and impulse. That begs for subspace technobabble with regards to impulse.

Could you be more spesific about the event you have in mind?

Sub-space stuff =/= lowering the mass of an object. Standard shields have a sub-space aspect to them along with some other stuff, but lower the mass of an object is not norm. Pretty much every peace of Star Trek tech has sub-space involved in some way, but it doesn't seem to normally lower the mass of an object. It's never a matter of just turning on the mass lowering field. They always have to alter some other system that normally does not lower the mass of anything.

Aren't impulse engines some sort of strange reactionless drive? We never see any react mass flying out the rear, and doesn't it work no matter what direction the ship is facing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionless_drive

[Picard]

I would say that impulse engines work in a way similar to warp drive, but are optimized for STL speeds, while warp engines are optimized for FTL. I think that either TOS or ENT Romulans had no warp drive on their ships, yet were capable of FTL travel.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The fact that they easily pulled that on DS9 is ample proof that it can be replicated if designed from the beginning in to the drive system, which I don't see any reason why it couldn't.

First, it was done through the shields, not the station's engines.

So what? You don't see a problem with that?
They achieved that trick through a system that is not even meant to be related to a motion capacity. The only reason they used the shield projector was precisely to be able to project that subspace field.
I don't see what's to be argued there, frankly.
Put simply, O'brien McGuyvered that motion system. If he can do it with systems not built to do it, and cleverly at that, anyone can also do it, better, with systems meant to be used that way from the beginning!

Second, the fact that they did not simply "flip a switch", but had to perform some modifications show that, while it isn't something out of their reach, it isn't something they normally used either...

You speak of the E-D? Sure, since they were going to apply it to a large object that probably maxed out the ship's systems. Fact remains that they applied a warp field, and it lowered the mass of an object in realspace, at STL, by a million times.
Now, the fact that the field lowered the mass that much could be due to the size of the field, not the idea that any field of any size will always reduce the mass of an object by a million or more.

It could be very interesting to see if the mass lightening ratio can be proportional to the size of the field, and thus scale down said ratio based on the size of the field applied to the asteroid, to the field regularly applied to the E-D.

[Praeothmin]

And again, the fact remains that every time they wanted to lower someting's mass, they had to create an artificial Warp field of some kind, usually through shields, deflector dish, or something else, never using the Impulse engine's own "mass reducing field"...

So this, to me, shows us no "mass reducing fields" from Impulse engines...

[Picard]

Warp nacelles glow regardless wether ship is in warp or on impulse. So it might indicate that "warp field" is in use also during impulse operations. And why there should be "impulse field"? We have "warp core" but it is used as power source as long as ship is operational and we never hear of "impulse core".

And "mass reducing field" if nacelles might be limited to shield area, and thus unavaliable at longer distances. Who knows?

[Mr. Oragahn]

And again, the fact remains that every time they wanted to lower someting's mass, they had to create an artificial Warp field of some kind, usually through shields, deflector dish, or something else, never using the Impulse engine's own "mass reducing field"...

So this, to me, shows us no "mass reducing fields" from Impulse engines...

Obviously, since DS9 wasn't built as a space ship. As for the E-D, they had to fiddle with their warp tech because they had to cast a field on an object other than the spaceship.
Everything fits in the right holes. It doesn't really matter if the MLT is not part of the sublight drive, but activated along it.