ST vs Eldar & Tau

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Lucky
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ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Lucky » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:18 am

Why are these just ignored?

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... 01&page=25
Rama post: 623 wrote:It's already been shown several times in this thread that Tau and Eldar vessels can go toe-to-toe with their Imperial equivalents in the firepower stakes, which is most certainly well above the case of known Trek documentation:
Quote:
- Sans the fact that every instance in which the Federation were incapable of vaporizing asteroids without significant amounts of energy being involved even for them such as in Pegasus and Deja Q and in one instance in which a torpedo with an increased yield (by 11%) barely fractured the asteroid it impacted in Genesis (let alone turning the entire nearby field to vapour).

- The E-D could not destroy an asteroid with a dense iron core even with several subsequent following torpedoes in Cost of Living.

- The E-D had to supplement the aid of a minor solar prominence to destroy a vessel that their weapons were utterly useless against in Descent, part II, similarly three Dominion attack craft are destroyed whilst sitting on the leading edge of a CME during the episode Shadows and Symbols (the same episode in which a Klingon Commander exclaimed that by skimming near the photosphere of a star that they were "too close").

- During the events of the Klingon Civil War as depicted in Redemption, part 2, a Klingon BOP is being pursued by two other such vessels into the corona of a yellow star, to which the helmsman states that their course will take them dangerously close to the photosphere. Later, the Captain orders a warp skimming maneuver that kicks up a solar prominence, instantly destroying the pursuing BOP’s. Much like in the above, the cloud was incredibly diffuse, translucent to the naked eye and barely moving at several kilometers per second at most; and yet was sufficiently energetic as to outright pulverize two vessels that could both serve as frontline warships.

- The crew of the Voyager encounters a Cardassian missile with a one ton M/AM mix in Dreadnought, causing him to exclaim about the fact that it could destroy a small moon.

- Voyager was forced to ground herself when under attack from Turien weapons that generated less than gigajoule range blasts when used in atmosphere during the episode Dragon's Teeth.

- Then there's the fact that we see one Bajoran Raider and two Interceptors dog fighting over the surface of a planet in The Siege. The resultant Interceptor attacks are barely enough to shake the very tree lines they hit, and yet they directly threaten the vessel as per comments from the two pilots. This is the same class of vessel that was capable of leading a standoff against a Romulan Warbird in Shadows and Symbols, and whilst they were not a direct threat by itself, was enough to give the Romulans pause for thought despite their intention of taking the system by force.

- We also have that fact that sitting twenty million kilometres away from a Neutron star would be hazardous to the shields of the E-D within minutes according to Allegiance. A Pulsar delivers approximately – at most - 4.4E31 joules of energy every second depending on the rotation of the star, which means that in the space of eighteen minutes the E-D will absorb approximately 451.4 megatons before total shield failure, which indicates that 418.2 kilotons per second is the maximum rate of absorption before the rate of power overwhelms their heat shield dissipation even when Riker orders power to be diverted to the shields. When later given the order, Data states that the vessel would not survive at a proximity of ten million kilometers from the star (or 1.7 megatons per second), but earlier Riker states that they intend to orbit at two hundred million kilometers with no sign of distress to the shields (4.1 kilotons per second); it should be noted however that this is assuming a constant pulse rather than an elliptical orbit of the stellar mass as observed in the episode - which would decrease the absorbed power rating by OOM.

- Let's not also forget that BOP's were getting dropped left, right and center by ramming - intact - Jemmie fighters in Tears of the Prophets, the E-E loses 30% of her forward and rear shields after scraping her nacelle against a loose piece of relatively slow moving debris in Nemesis, the Scimitar losing her shields (which sat at 70%) when the E-E - moving at 50m/s - crumples her like an Origami Swan.

- We then also have the Federation fleet forced to turn the defense turrets surrounding Chintoka on their own buried generator in Tears of the Prophets. These are weapons that have been seen gutting Galaxy-class warships during the battle, and yet their own weapons barely even pound sections of the rocky surface of the generator mounted asteroid.

- In The Survivors, the E-D encounters a vessel that fires a jacketed anti-matter burst with the "equivalent firepower" of 40 MW. Riker comments that this fight will be too easy, yet when the vessel later returns and fires a 400 GW particle beam, it fries the shields with only superficial damage to the ship. A second shot neutralizes the shielding all together and causes thermal damage to the hull. Data comments on this:

"The warship is in possession of enormous energy reserves. It is capable of striking us with far more powerful bursts."

- In Insurrection, Riker ramscoops a cloud of Metreon gas, dumping it in the path of, igniting it and destroying two Cruisers that had proven resistant to Qunatumn Torpedoes.

- Or how about Relics, where the E-D could only sit in the corona of a G-type star for several hours with her shields at ~20%, or does G-type mean:

"Gee, that star is giving off gigatons of NDF per square meter!"

Of course the amount of times that Trek shields (regardless of the civilization) just outright ignore gigatons of energy is legion! Legion I say!

- All joking aside, the claim that shields can withstand gigatons because of some of yet unheard of property in their NDF weapons is utterly bunk; and the fact that a Borg Cube was turned to stellar dust thanks to a relatively slow moving Bioship in Scorpion (which would need to weigh billions of metric tons just to generate KE in the low gigaton range) merely proves the rank absurdity in the claim that the Borg can displace any amount of DET weaponry and simply make it harmlessly dissipate.
Contrary to claims, the Federation are not operating in a range comparable to the IOM, or her space faring counterparts.
Where did this list come from? Does Rama know that this list is full of incorrect information? Who ever made the list at best was going by memory alone, and at worst was lying. Just at a glance I count three mistakes that make the claims about the episodes incorrect.

Didn't ricrery1 get laughed at for constantly posting a similar list?



http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... 01&page=27
Soulgazer post: 667 wrote:Descent Part 2

In this incident, the Enterprise-D moved deep into the corona of a star using special metaphasic shields, and its chief engineer estimated that its shields would fail within 5 minutes under this bombardment. Based on the presence of a habitable planet in that star system as well as the colour spectrum of the star, we can conclude that its star was very similar to Earth's star in terms of general luminosity. We can estimate corona power intensity to be roughly 60 MW/m², since that is the approximate power intensity at the surface of our Sun (note that the corona is outside the star). If we use a 100,000 m² profile area estimate, total absorption is roughly 6 TW, which would add up to roughly 420 kilotons (let's just say ½-megaton).
Given Rama list does anyone know if this is correct?

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:52 pm

Lucky wrote:Where did this list come from? Does Rama know that this list is full of incorrect information? Who ever made the list at best was going by memory alone, and at worst was lying. Just at a glance I count three mistakes that make the claims about the episodes incorrect.
Looks like another deliberately inaccurate list, like several others I've seen being tossed around over the years on various forums.
Lucky wrote:Given Rama list does anyone know if this is correct?
The general descriptions of the timing and everything is way off. The E-D flew fairly close to the star as seen here:

Image

The star's color, the extremely unsual density of the corona, if that is what is glowing brightly all around the ship is not typical for a G-type star. Also the fact that the star had a habitable planet means nothing much as it could be a highly energetic star, but the planet is much further out than Earth is from Sol. The star's light as it appeared from the planet's surface:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... two368.jpg

So Rama doesn't know what he's talking about or is flat out lying. As for the calcs. They're way off. Actually very low-ball since even simply assuming the shields are a rectangle, they are much larger usually than the ship is long or wide. So the E-D is around 642 meters by 145 when view in side profile. The shields are as much then as 750 x 400 m or 300,000 m^2. So 300,000 x 60 MW = 18e6 MW = 18 TW. Or to put it another way, in 5 minutes the ship would absorb 1.29 megatons worth of energy. Now the ship is not keeping her side profile to the star, but her largest surface area, the bottom profile as you can see in the image. That's even worse as the ship is at least 470 meters in beam, thus the shields have to be bigger and in turn absorb far more energy. This means at least 375,000 m^2 x 60 = 22,500,000 MW total or 22.5 TW, or 1.61 MT.

This all assumes a normal G-type star like our Sun. But given the odd color, the high solar corona density, and the strange sunlight at the planet, this is very likely highly conservative estimates. Oh the other thing that clinches the star's abnormality. Even from a distance the star radiated enough energy to heat the hull of the E-D to 12,000 degrees C. Rama's timing is also wrong, he is selectively choosing a point late in the ship's stay near the star.

The order of events is:

1.) The E-D is chased away from the planet by the Borg ship and is fired on as it heads tot he star, taking signficant shield damage (shields are stated to be down to sixty-two percent on last hit).

2.) The metaphasic shields are brought up and the E-D enters the corona of the star, flying further in close to the star before taking up position.

3.) Cut back to the planet and several minutes go by while Geordi and Data converse on the planet; Picard and Troi work on escaping their holding cell, and Data and Lore talk.

4.) Cut back to the E-D and the report that the metaphasic shields are losing integrity (whatever that means exactly, solar radiation did not appear to be affecting them), and an estimate of up to 4 minutes were left until they failed. All total, there was over 9 minutes of exposure in the corona.


As for Redemption here's the crash:

Image

Note that the star's curvature is very pronounced still, which means that the solar flare (if that's what that is) is shooting up thousands of km in seconds. Furthermore, the BoPs flew down millions of km in 30 seconds, thus both the flare and the ships are going a combined speed in excess of 39,000 kps! That's roughly 1/8th of c. So when one of these guys makes a statement, fact check it on Chakotey.net, Trekcore, or YouTube.
-Mike

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:47 pm

Funnily, I was going to say that it looked like ricrery1's list extended: new with 200% more verbose but just as much premium bullshit.

Despite feigning being a longtime debater (ref. the RSA vs Wong feud), he doesn't seem to know much about certain universes he has focused on for two intensive years now. It solely seems to be a quick rehash of typical SDN arguments.

He's also not very generous on the behind the scenes calcs used to provide the numbers about Deja Q when he quotes himself.

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:53 pm

Rama isn't capable of debating I don't know what the fool does but that's not debating

also why is it people are saying the eldar would give the feds trouble? I mean Necrons would probably whoop that ass..and Tyranids but really? the craft worlds and the IOM?

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Cocytus » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:58 pm

All the calcs from these solar events conveniently neglect the fact that the corona is far hotter than the surface of the sun. The sun's surface is around 5,000-6,000 K, while the corona shoots up to as much as 2,000,000 K.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/scien ... orona.html

Any calculations using the surface temperature of the sun to derive power in the corona are simply wrong. They either don't know that or are simply ignoring it.

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:08 pm

Cocytus wrote:All the calcs from these solar events conveniently neglect the fact that the corona is far hotter than the surface of the sun. The sun's surface is around 5,000-6,000 K, while the corona shoots up to as much as 2,000,000 K.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/scien ... orona.html

Any calculations using the surface temperature of the sun to derive power in the corona are simply wrong. They either don't know that or are simply ignoring it.
The density of gases matter just as much as the sheer temperature. You could have a single particle septillion times hotter than a particle of a star photosphere flying across a star system, the chances of ever hitting it would be about zero.
Wong's calcs, iirc, do take into account the gas density. I think his calcs were valid, but he ignored the odds aspects of some of the stars he gauged.

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:21 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:The general descriptions of the timing and everything is way off. The E-D flew fairly close to the star as seen here:

Image

The star's color, the extremely unsual density of the corona, if that is what is glowing brightly all around the ship is not typical for a G-type star.
Could be skimming a solar flare. The colour of the star would make it less intense than Sol.
Also the fact that the star had a habitable planet means nothing much as it could be a highly energetic star, but the planet is much further out than Earth is from Sol. The star's light as it appeared from the planet's surface:

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... two368.jpg
Did you come to this conclusion based on the colour of the light on the planet?
I don't see how that is evidence of anything. Orange is still going to be orange, nah?
So Rama doesn't know what he's talking about or is flat out lying. As for the calcs. They're way off. Actually very low-ball since even simply assuming the shields are a rectangle, they are much larger usually than the ship is long or wide. So the E-D is around 642 meters by 145 when view in side profile. The shields are as much then as 750 x 400 m or 300,000 m^2. So 300,000 x 60 MW = 18e6 MW = 18 TW. Or to put it another way, in 5 minutes the ship would absorb 1.29 megatons worth of energy. Now the ship is not keeping her side profile to the star, but her largest surface area, the bottom profile as you can see in the image. That's even worse as the ship is at least 470 meters in beam, thus the shields have to be bigger and in turn absorb far more energy. This means at least 375,000 m^2 x 60 = 22,500,000 MW total or 22.5 TW, or 1.61 MT.
I'm not sure why you think there is anything strange about the sunlight.
Besides, I think it would be more accurate to use the shield's cross section, with the bisecting plane being perpendicular to the star's radius. You'd be calculating the surface area of an ellipse.
Oh the other thing that clinches the star's abnormality. Even from a distance the star radiated enough energy to heat the hull of the E-D to 12,000 degrees C.
That, on the other hand, is something that would indeed prove the exotic nature of those particles.
What was said distance though?

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:29 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Could be skimming a solar flare. The colour of the star would make it less intense than Sol.
Not necessarily, there are larger main sequence stars of that size than Sol. It could be a G-type star that is exausting it's hydrogen and is begining the long expansion into it's red giant phase as it starts to fuse helium. Given how intense the light is, both at the star, and for the people on the planet, it could be a type-III giant. Big enough to be hotter and more energetic than our Sun, but small enough to allow for a habitiable planet to have time to form and produce life (assuming the trees and plants were not brought in from somewhere else).
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Did you come to this conclusion based on the colour of the light on the planet?
I don't see how that is evidence of anything. Orange is still going to be orange, nah?
Not strictly, but see above. The light is unsually intense at the surface without the slightest indication of dust to cause diffusion. Add in the 12,000 C temperature of the E-D hull, and we have a star that is not a yellow-white dwarf like Sol.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I'm not sure why you think there is anything strange about the sunlight.
Besides, I think it would be more accurate to use the shield's cross section, with the bisecting plane being perpendicular to the star's radius. You'd be calculating the surface area of an ellipse.
Again, orange color, intense light at the surface of a planet tens of millions of km away. Thus higher luminosity. As for the shape of the cross section, as I stated before, Wong and other Warsies use a simple rectangle cross section, and usually vastly underestimate it's size. As I've demonstrated, they didn't even give the E-D it's more likely shield surface area since they deliberately undersized it to begin with. So I'm just going by that assumption, then showing how they nerfed it to get the lowest possible number. Even if we assume the shields were hugging the hull, the E-D still has huge amounts of surface area. The lower saucer section's surface area is over 500,000 m^2 by itself for chrissake, using the formula for calculating an ellipse . The shields as portrayed, would be 942,000 m^2. So we'd wind up with over 56 TW, not 18-22, or 4 megatons absorbed in 5 minutes.
Oh the other thing that clinches the star's abnormality. Even from a distance the star radiated enough energy to heat the hull of the E-D to 12,000 degrees C.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That, on the other hand, is something that would indeed prove the exotic nature of those particles. What was said distance though?
They never stated a closing distance to the star. If you can peg down what kind of star it is, then you can calculate a distance based on the visuals.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:00 pm

With a hull getting heated up to 12000 K, as a correlation to the temperature of the photosphere (and assuming that they both have the same rate of cooling down via radiation), the star would be like 2 or 3 times hotter than our sun, since our star iirc has temps of 5000 to 6000 K. Not sure how you could increase that factor more.
As for skimming a solar flare, the proof is quite there. If the entire star's nearby volume was filled with that semi opaque gas, you would simply not see its very clean horizon. We happen to see in the first picture that if you remove the whole orange tint, the background would be dark. The only other parts on the picture where the orange is so thick and bright is precisely on the two flares we see and on the photosphere. In fact, if you look at the top right hand corner, you see that there's a volume of brighter orange. As bright as the photosphere's horizon and the flare's brightest points, but brighter than the star when you look at the down left hand corner.
There's absolutely no doubt that the ship is cruising around a flare.

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Lucky » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:40 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:With a hull getting heated up to 12000 K, as a correlation to the temperature of the photosphere (and assuming that they both have the same rate of cooling down via radiation), the star would be like 2 or 3 times hotter than our sun, since our star iirc has temps of 5000 to 6000 K. Not sure how you could increase that factor more.
As for skimming a solar flare, the proof is quite there. If the entire star's nearby volume was filled with that semi opaque gas, you would simply not see its very clean horizon. We happen to see in the first picture that if you remove the whole orange tint, the background would be dark. The only other parts on the picture where the orange is so thick and bright is precisely on the two flares we see and on the photosphere. In fact, if you look at the top right hand corner, you see that there's a volume of brighter orange. As bright as the photosphere's horizon and the flare's brightest points, but brighter than the star when you look at the down left hand corner.
There's absolutely no doubt that the ship is cruising around a flare.
Looking at the screen caps, and going by memory there is no talk of flares, and the closed thing to one is the technobabble event they cause.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 52&page=14
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 52&page=16
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 52&page=17

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mith » Mon May 23, 2011 7:48 pm

I'm not entirely sure the point of this; the shields being unable to stop constant bombardment of heat on the shields isn't something that surprises me. Shields are meant to deal with intense damage to one point in the shields every few seconds--not constant bombardment to their entire shield grid over the course of minutes/hours as we saw in Relics or here.

Hell, I'm surprised the shields do so well since we know that the Borg's anti-shield weapons tend to do more than just drain energy from the shield; they seem to also cause internal damage.

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Re: ST vs Eldar & Tau

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon May 23, 2011 8:59 pm

Actually, the Borg tractor beams and other shield draining weapons do no internal damage to the ship they are being used against. Only the cutting beam, disruptors, and other weapons do that.
-Mike

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