Re: Another Blow to Hypermatter Fuel's Existence?

[Praeothmin]

A lot of you here don't like Mike. You don't like his style- fair enough. To be honest with you, I'm not a great lover of his style either- but that's irrelevant. This topic is not a popularity contest. It's about facts and figures, not analysing the personality of an opponent, which is what this thread appears to be all about- claims about Mike's personal life, his treatment of his wife... all one big ad homenein, if you ask me.

I don't hate Mike Wong, I don't even know him...
I just hate his debating tactics and his online persona...
That doesn't mean I wish bad things to happen to him...

Besides, Mike's style of debating, whilst not I like, is one I can understand. If I had made a website, after painstakingly researching my topic, only to have numerous emails bringing up points already addressed on my site, along with hack threats, threats of violence, and even death threats (and lets not forget one well-publicised threat to Mike's wife and kids), then I'd probably not be so forgiving.

Well, I believe the original intent of this thread was to discuss tha fact that Mike didn't painstakingly research everything on the topic, or did but glaringly ignored many points going against his beliefs...
I agree receiving hack threats or death threats is no laughing matter, especially for a family man...
But he seemed fine, at one time, with the idea of someone from his site posting all the real-life information of Darkstar, including his home address...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Going through this thread, I can't believe the stuff spouted about Mike. What next, accusations that he beats his wife? This thread should be renamed the 'how many wild conclusions can we make based on Star Trek VS Star Wars?'

Guys?
Didn't you mean guy? Because if you had read this board beyond that simple thread, you'd know that although Wong is disliked, no one wishes -aside from Breetai here for example- this mess to transpire into his own private life.
It's still a hobby, although it's quite SDN's plebe who has treated it so seriously that it backfired.
People generally don't tend to make any effort in order to end looking like SDN or 4chan. They try to get clear of their stinky methods.

Khas and Spacewizard were also quite keen to reach conclusions about Mike's personal life.

I don't remember correctly, but Spacewizard is being constantly held under ban, and as for Khas, I can't remember. Is it about the sex-toy talk? I didn't much attention to those silly things. I don't really care about what Wong's chick loves to shove up her arse and vagina. I just know that I'd smack my own bitch for posting such decadent crap on Internet. Especially if I already had kids. Other than that, pff...

I mean, come on. You guys are feeding the fire by obsessing over Mike and SDN. How much ammo are giving them here? Do you realise how many libel cases Mike could bring against you for the unsubstantiated claims you make about him?

Erm... haha lol?

Of course the claims are unsubstantiated- and not even relevant.

Then let us be obsessed and get off our boots?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Mike Wong may have an argumentative stance in which he's not afraid to bash anybody he thinks is stupid, but he seems to a nice guy based on empirical evidence:

1. He's very anti racist and anti homophobic

2. He accepted an apology from someone threatening to beat him and his wife up

3. One of his mods is a Trekkie

4. In parts of his website that do not have to do with debating trekkies or creationists, he acts positive, like the film revelations.

5. He is nice to anybody he considers to be intelligent.


But these criticisms of his debating behavior betrays the point. Wong is a very good debater in terms of his persuasiveness and logical reason. He backs up everything he says, and although you can disagree with him, it's difficult to find any blatant flaws in his website.

[Khas]

1. He's very anti racist and anti homophobic

While these are positive qualities, he is also an Anti-Semite. Make of this what you will.

3. One of his mods is a Trekkie

Ah yes, Alyeska, who's only Pro-Trek by SDN standards.

5. He is nice to anybody he considers to be intelligent.

In other words, people who agree with him.

But these criticisms of his debating behavior betrays the point. Wong is a very good debater in terms of his persuasiveness and logical reason. He backs up everything he says, and although you can disagree with him, it's difficult to find any blatant flaws in his website.

...

You're joking, right?

[Mr. Oragahn]

While these are positive qualities, he is also an Anti-Semite. Make of this what you will.

You can't find someone more antisemitic than an Israelite or a Zionist these days. ;)
Just putting things into perspective...

[Admiral Breetai]

But these criticisms of his debating behavior betrays the point. Wong is a very good debater in terms of his persuasiveness and logical reason. He backs up everything he says, and although you can disagree with him, it's difficult to find any blatant flaws in his website.

listen, I know we've had our differences I know that we fundamentally disagree on almost everything but I know..you know about comics and the characters and their abilities I know this because I have seen you rationally argue and debate both marvel and Dc characters. your views on DBZ while considered outragious on SB aren't that bad you..do know.

knowing this and I'm asking you..not a fan of wong or SW but as some one who knows comics...I'm hoping you can answer me honestly and objectively if you do I promise I'll ease up on you ( a bit)

if you saw some one argue relentlessly that Obi-wan Kenobi could not only react to Wally West AKA The Flash at his absolute strongest..but actually kill the flash...seeing this would you assume the persons not actually mustering a good debate just stubbornly and ignorantly clinging to their own views?

this is exactly what Mike Wong did against CrossoverManiac the man..argued against The flashes victory trying every trick in the book to assure a kenobi victory against CM then closed the thread and declared him an idiot when it became obvious he could not legitimately refute Wally's absolute stomp of Obi-wan

I'm not even going to touch God vs Yoda...just answer me: does Wally West vs Obi-wan Kenobi sound rational..and possible at all

[Sothis]

It's threads like this, which discussing Mike's personality so much, that create the impression of SJN on SDN- if you don't like the way SJN is portrayed over there, then one of the things that needs to stop happening is this sort of irrelevant personality discussion.

[Picard]

Main reason SDN-ers hate SFJN is that they can't come here and apply their standard debate mode... which quickly makes circus out of debate whenever applied. Ah, and the fact that majority here does not agree with Saxton's wanktastic ICS.

[Praeothmin]

It's threads like this, which discussing Mike's personality so much, that create the impression of SJN on SDN- if you don't like the way SJN is portrayed over there, then one of the things that needs to stop happening is this sort of irrelevant personality discussion.

And it's threads similar to this one, on SDN, where anyone who defends ST is mocked as an idiot, as someone who has no logical or scientific grasp, where most people of SFJ are all lumped into the same basket, that forces the creation of threads like this one...

[Mike DiCenso]

It's threads like this, which discussing Mike's personality so much, that create the impression of SJN on SDN- if you don't like the way SJN is portrayed over there, then one of the things that needs to stop happening is this sort of irrelevant personality discussion.

As other people have pointed out that SDN makes very similar threads to this one, and a lot worse in their content, too, I will simply ask this of you; what would you have us do here? Stay quiet? Turn the other cheek? Hardly. Given Mike Wong's past (and probably present as well) debating style and claims, he's made himself fair game, and will be put to the same standards he claims should be applied to everyone else.

The biggest problem I have with Wong is that is quite often the quintessential "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrite. As long as he and his cronies get to direct the vitriol and mudslinging on others as a high and might intellectual elitist, it's okay. But if it's directed back at him? Oh no! We can't have that!
-Mike

[Sothis]

It's threads like this, which discussing Mike's personality so much, that create the impression of SJN on SDN- if you don't like the way SJN is portrayed over there, then one of the things that needs to stop happening is this sort of irrelevant personality discussion.

As other people have pointed out that SDN makes very similar threads to this one, and a lot worse in their content, too, I will simply ask this of you; what would you have us do here? Stay quiet? Turn the other cheek? Hardly. Given Mike Wong's past (and probably present as well) debating style and claims, he's made himself fair game, and will be put to the same standards he claims should be applied to everyone else.

The biggest problem I have with Wong is that is quite often the quintessential "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrite. As long as he and his cronies get to direct the vitriol and mudslinging on others as a high and might intellectual elitist, it's okay. But if it's directed back at him? Oh no! We can't have that!
-Mike

There is a difference between attacking someone's argument and attacking them. You might argue that Mike attacks the man; I would suggest he attacks the argument, and only flames his opponents after they flame him, or if they ignore the warnings on his site about reading the site.

At any rate, there is a chasm of difference in the criticisms of SJN's versus arguments and the commentary on Mike's personal life. Nor is this sort of thread 'forced'. How many threads do you see on SDN that pore over the personal behaviour of JMS, for example?

[Praeothmin]

I would suggest he attacks the argument, and only flames his opponents after they flame him, or if they ignore the warnings on his site about reading the site.

Did you read ST vs SW threads he was in?
As soon as someone brings up a valid example of why things aren't as he says they are, he is ridiculed, period, whether that person insulted him or not...
He states that all the people with basic graps of science agree with him, which is false...

At any rate, there is a chasm of difference in the criticisms of SJN's versus arguments and the commentary on Mike's personal life.

I agree, that is why, in most threads where Mike Wong is wrongfully attacked, you will find people here telling the attackers to back off or to stick to his arguments...

Nor is this sort of thread 'forced'. How many threads do you see on SDN that pore over the personal behaviour of JMS, for example?

You are right, "forced" is the wrong world.
Let's use "inspire" instead...
And no one can attack JMS's behavior because he doesn't act like a prick to those who disagree with him... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

It's threads like this, which discussing Mike's personality so much, that create the impression of SJN on SDN- if you don't like the way SJN is portrayed over there, then one of the things that needs to stop happening is this sort of irrelevant personality discussion.

As other people have pointed out that SDN makes very similar threads to this one, and a lot worse in their content, too, I will simply ask this of you; what would you have us do here? Stay quiet? Turn the other cheek? Hardly. Given Mike Wong's past (and probably present as well) debating style and claims, he's made himself fair game, and will be put to the same standards he claims should be applied to everyone else.

The biggest problem I have with Wong is that is quite often the quintessential "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrite. As long as he and his cronies get to direct the vitriol and mudslinging on others as a high and might intellectual elitist, it's okay. But if it's directed back at him? Oh no! We can't have that!
-Mike

There is a difference between attacking someone's argument and attacking them. You might argue that Mike attacks the man; I would suggest he attacks the argument, and only flames his opponents after they flame him, or if they ignore the warnings on his site about reading the site.

At any rate, there is a chasm of difference in the criticisms of SJN's versus arguments and the commentary on Mike's personal life. Nor is this sort of thread 'forced'. How many threads do you see on SDN that pore over the personal behaviour of JMS, for example?

What Praeo said. I'd only like to add that in coming here to defend Mike Wong from critics, you have not been harassed or ridiculed as would most certainly be the case were one of us... or anyone for that matter... to go over to SDN and defend either JMS or RSA from their critics over there.

Hell, the fact that you can come here and do this without getting banned or your post sent off to a hidden "Hall of Shame", or outright deleted speaks volumes about the differences between the two forums and their founders.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

There is a difference between attacking someone's argument and attacking them. You might argue that Mike attacks the man; I would suggest he attacks the argument, and only flames his opponents after they flame him, or if they ignore the warnings on his site about reading the site.

Well, there's one way to try to measure how much time he spends attacking the argument and how much time he spends attacking the person behind the argument. I would suggest that you pay attention to how much time, and posting volume, he spends on talking about people.

Count it up, word by word - open three documents. Copy everything Wong said into the first file, and then start going through it.

Every line that's talking about how his opponent must be stupid for disagreeing with him, every line that's spent talking about how his opponent doesn't have a real degree or an important job (or, conversely, Wong talking about how successful he is IRL, how his degree is real, how he's taking valuable time to respond, et cetera), every insulting aside, such as "you moron," every trolling "Concession accepted!" that's just there to provoke his opponent - put those in the second file.

Everything that's pure impersonal argument, just plain facts and logic, the sort of thing that I would offer in a formal debate, put that in the third file. Then look at the second and third files and compare them. Which is longer? Which is more interesting to read? Which one is more repetitive?

[Admiral Breetai]

his job is hardly important.

in any case SWST still waiting for you to adress wongs claims regarding the flash in so far as his capacity to be objective or fair