Y. Vong vs S. 8472 vs Tyranids @ SBC - some comments

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Mr. Oragahn
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Y. Vong vs S. 8472 vs Tyranids @ SBC - some comments

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:04 pm

Reading the Vong vs 8472 vs Nids thread.

If, by chance, Dr Strangelove ever reads this, I'd like to know where he found that:

#79
DSL wrote:
Mith wrote:What conspiracy
Oh you know, Oragahns obsession with proving every real person mentioned in the ICSs is some SDN poster
Not sure where is going with that. Pointing out who did what wasn't even started by me, it was done as a side interest to see the involvment of certain debaters in the creation of the ICS, which is obviously of relevance to some degree, but would also not trump the act of actually looking at the numbers themselves and pointing out the errors, which I did a long time ago before even knowing that one of the first rabid warsie I debated against, Leo1, was actually cited in the acknowledgments.
This acknowledgment story is actually very new, 2011, while I started to harp about the ICS like around 2005 IIRC, and published my first major posts at SBC around 2006 or 2007.

DSL should really be careful with his claims. He's not appearing to be quite coherent, although he is consistent at making things up.






Drachyench asked an interesting question.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... stcount=80
Here's a question for you, Mith: Tell me where it says a Hellfire Missile is non-canon because it's old.

"They don't state its numbers in later editions" don't cut it, unless you want any reference of ST torpedo pre-90's to be ignored because "It's old". "It's old" doesn't work, as last I checked it wasn't amongst the "Forbidden Tomes" / whatever-they're-called section that includes stuff like the Inquisition Wars and Double Eage.

Your entire basis for "Hellfire Torpedoes aren't canon", a weapon specifically used in anti-ship warfare, is "They're old" and "They're too small." Furthermore, it's interesting that you reference the "Gigawatt" laser, but not the "Petawatt" laser that is canonical as well.
If the age of an edition doesn't cut it, what would happen in the case of edition A saying the sky is red and edition B saying the sky is green, B being newer?
Of course, there is a contradiction in this case, but the point is that most people would solve it by understanding that the concept of edition, and revised editions, is intimately tied to the most cryptic and arcane concept of time and publishing dates.

So if they would accept to use publishing date to establish a hierarchy between source A and source B, why wouldn't they accept this same methodology to be applied in the case of the Space Hulk mission books' editions?

After all, I remember Inquisitor Ryan doing something similar a few months ago regarding FTL speeds, citing a fresher source (all relative, it's from the 2nd edition) that should put to shame all others (mainly older for those I've read, since I've never picked any reference from a book yet that gives a clear FTL speed), while forgetting some facts put in the 5th edition that actually bust the super FTL speed of the 2nd edition, and actually bring the numbers back to that of the Space Fleet era.

They don't seem to have much of a problem to accept whatever the 5th edition of the rulebook says even if contradicts earlier material - especially if it contradicts earlier material in certain cases.

Why the double standard then?






Deadguy proves a funny picture of some silly tank transport:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... stcount=92

Is the concept of profile area such alien to the IoM?






Deadguy cites stuff about tanks
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=158
Mith I have sources for the Leman Russ battle tank if you are interested.
Gaunt's Ghosts: Honour Guard - Dan Abnett, Pages 182 & 183 wrote: "When it fired, the breech of the main gun hurtled back into the turret space with one hundred and ninety tonnes of recoil force."
Honour Guard wrote: The enemy mass began firing back uphill with resolved fury. The main weapons of the AT70s were longer and slimmer than the hefty muzzles of the Imperial Conquerors. Their blasts made higher, shrieking roars and sparked star-shaped gas-burns from the flash-retarders at the ends of their barrels. Shells rained down across the Imperial charge.


LeGuin had been right. Examples of old, sub-Imperial standard technology, the Reavers lacked any auspex guidance or laser rangefinding. It was also clear they had no gyro stabilisers. Once the Conqueror guns were aimed, they damn well stayed aim-locked thanks to inertial dampers, no matter how much bouncing and lurching the tank was experiencing. That meant the Conquerors could shoot and move simultaneously without any appreciable loss of target lock. The AT70s fired by eye and any movement or jarring required immediate aim revision.
190 tonnes of recoil force with inertial dampeners.

EDIT: Will do maths later.
Mmm, do the internial dampeners that prevent the whole turret assembly from bobing also apply to the recoil from the cannon?
I'm reading it as Deadguy being impressed that a guy wearing a long trenchcoat and walking under the rain could still manage to wet himself by peeing in his pants.
Further evidence comes from the fact that Leman Russes in the Dawn of War game have their front ends come a few meters off the ground when they fire.
Gaunt's Ghosts: Honour Guard - Dan Abnett, Black Library, Page 174 wrote:
"Re-laying the gun took a vital second. In that time, the second tank fired again and hit the Wrath squarely. The impact was enough to lurch all sixty-two tonnes of armoured machine several metres sideways. But it didn't penetrate the twenty centimetre-thick armour skin. Inside, the crew were dazed and they'd lost most of the forward scopes."
In context the offending weapon was a 105mm hypervelocity cannon from a tank the Imperial Guard deemed obsolete.
I wonder if that's the quote JMS tackled, the one with the tank being located on top of some muddy slope or something.
It's quite an odd phenomenon since the amount of displacement is completely at odds with the tank's survival and mere loss of forward scopes. The steel alloy has never been that good (I think that JMS had found a reference about it being about five times better than what we can do today). You just don't move a 62 tonnes with a single projectile unless this one blows up on a proxy fuse and mainly creates a god awful blast wave. In all other cases, the projectile will simply vaporize, either stopping somewhere inside the hull or literally making the tank a new, messy, hole.






I have been unable to find which source quoted by Ryan shows the author contradicting himself about the population of a hive. It's most likely in that thread, but I just can't find it. The rage.
Seems to be about the book describing Vervunhive though.







Skelron attempts to explain the quote about the firepower that can bring down a city and pierce a mighty Titan's void shields:
Skelron wrote: All of it is irrelevent actually. If we assume the author was using the word city as it might be used on that world, and not on Earth for his comparison of power needed. The world in question was a Forge world with many Proto-Hives, and actual hives, their understanding of city then would be on the larger end of the scale, not the smaller.

However as I said it's actually irrelevent what the imperium counts as a city. Since the Author was not talking about a city in the 40K verse, but was attempting to give us the readers, from Modern day Earth a sense of the scale involved. So, taking into account the fact this book was published in the UK, and US, primary, for those markets we should use the scale of the Western world and our concepts of the word. We don't need to make some strange leap, and try and work out what the Imperium considers a city. Instead we use the English language.

And since the statement 'That in small Town Chicago' for example is clearly a stupid one, if we are using it in the modern context, is the same reason we know when he said city, he meant... something the size of a city, not something the size of a small town, else he would have said 'A small Town' as his attempt to convey scale. We know he would have done this, because usually when an author writes something descriptive, their intent is to help us the reader picture the scene in our minds, not to force us to play some guessing game. Had he wanted us to reintrepret the size of a city, he would have presented somewhere before that event, in the book, a new vision of what a city is, and even then have likely used 'The size of a Vervunhive city' He didn't do this, he just said a city. He meant a CITY from modern day Earth. From this point on, I want you to prove he meant anything other than a City as we understand it, read the book, and find me examples of the author presenting cities as being the size of small towns.

If you can't do that... concession accepted.

This then is the end of the discussion I hope. Your wrong accept it move on.

((Through the idea that a government stretching a over Million worlds, hasn't upgraded what it considers things, rather than downgraded them is inane. As they had to dal with more people, the scale would have gotten bigger if it changed at all. As it is, they appear to have simply added a new classification. That of Hive. Hint the imperium can lose a few worlds and not notice, Literally not notice, as in they don't realise it's gone they do things on the bigger end of the scale not the smaller))
There's really nothing stupid about claiming a small population and area for a city. It just takes knowing more about what a city means, from a US state point of view. Indeed, some states in the US have no problem whatsoever to call a city an urban agglomerate of less than a thousand souls.
Then, when you consider that a 12 KT nuke was sufficient to effectively bring down Hiroshima, and that a carpet bombing with small yields, for a total inferior to 12 KT, would be more effective than a single nuclear explosion, there's no need to look for ungodly numbers for Void shield strength. As I pointed out in the misc thread, this moderate kiloton firepower is quite good enough, and it was capable of going through the Void shield by being concentrated over a "ten meters square" patch, or in other words a ten meters wide square. Which means in theory that a hundredth of that firepower is all you need if you can concentrate it on an area of 1 square meter.







Ricrery1 provided a quotation from Draco:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=195
Draco wrote: Control was the watchword. The hydra would obey the thoughts of its makers. Ultimately the spores of the entity would pervade all of humanity, to which it vectored by design. Eventually the High Masters of the Ordo Hydra would activate those psychic spores. These would sprout: tiny hydras in the heads of trillions of people, all linked subtly through the medium of the warp.

Whereupon those High Masters—the self-proclaimed servants of the Emperor—could control the entire human species galaxy-wide, almost instantaneously.
Skelron's counter argument as to why "Draco" should be ignored:
Hmm, okay your obviously talking out your ass, your source for the hard number of trillons was Draco. My quotes stating that Draco is viewed as pretty much highly suspect was taken from let me state clearly for you. DRACO (the inquistion war was the collected works of Ian Watson on 40K Draco starts page 50. Prior to that we have a short story and authors preface in the 2009 edition. since i have the impression you've never actually read the book and instead copy pasted some other idiots theory))

In short your source for the Trillions number is a suspect source cannonically. Yes thats right, anything taken from Draco, as much as we fans of Gamesworkshop lore hate to admit it, because we have a soft spot for the series, being the first books written for the 40K universe. Is suspect unless collaborated by other sources. The books are entirely written as being actual accounts written by one Jaq draco, about his actions, the information therefore stating it is suspect, is also saying any information contained within the works is also suspect and to be treated pretty much as potential deliberate misinformation.

So so far we have you.

1.) using suspect sources as hard numbers
2.) attempting to claim a word has a different meaning from the normally accepted meaning.
3.) inability to actuially provide explanations for these issues
4.) Inability to actually meet a simple challange of proving your assertions

So we come to a conclusion. Your conceeding this thread, as you clearly have nothing useful to add to it.

Concesion accepted. until you actually post something of use, this from now on is the only response you will be getting. Meet the challange, prove the authors intent in his comparison was a meaning other than the commonly understood one. You've made the assertion that needs proof. My belief is when he said 'Something the size of a city' He means something roughly the size of... oh a real city. your assertion is that when he says 'something the size of a city' he means 'something the size of a small town' My statement follows, i am saying when he says something, he means... exactly what he says. Occams razor what tend to side with me, your theory requires more evidence than mine.

so prove it or shut up.

I am sure on Draco you are going to say 'But how does a number change on population affect anything' simple The imperium tells it's soldiers 'When you fight, remember that the uncountable armies of the Imperium fight beside you, on untold worlds, the strength of humanity struggles, on countless worlds, uncountable numbers of mankind fight the same struggles you do! Let this be your strength, that you are not alone in this struggle to survive'

And then word gets round... it has a number a large number but still a number Trillions.... It's a slow subtle poison that can eat at the heart of the imperium.
First of all, there's a 2009 edition. Not really out of date. Skelron's logic is that Jaq Draco's trillion figure largely stemed from propaganda, which he calls "deliberate misinformation".
His argument is self defeating. If it's a poison, then it implies it's wrong to listen to it and think it's a good representation of the Imperium.
Why this engine of propaganda that the Imperium is would actually lowball its own population, when it needs to make people know that there are humans everywhere, fighting the same war?

And why should we also forget that almost every single WH40K source starts with the famous "untold billions" of humans spread across the Imperium?

I'm not saying the trillion reference is rock solid, but Skelron's logic isn't really better.








Deadguy provides a description of a hive on Necromunda:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=258
Necromunda Page 72 wrote: Its people live in huge, sealed cities called hives - constructions so tall that their higher levels rise into the upper reaches of the atmosphere, piercing the toxic clouds that cling to the surface of the planet.
Page 75 wrote: The deepest and oldest layers [of hives] now lie far undeground, buried by the corrosive ash that pile saround the hive's base.

...

Where the hive breaks the surface its broad base spans ten miles or more from edge to edge. From ground level the man-made mountain rises ever more steeply upwards. Weathered walls of adamantium climb through the phosphorescent layer of undercloud, a pall of acidic dust which clings to the surface of Necromunda like a shroud.. The hive reaches skywards through ghostly shadow, until it eventually penetrates the cloud base and emerges into the hard light of the sun. At cloud-top level the hive-walls stand almost five miles above the ash waste.

...

Cantilevered balconies hundreds of meters long jut out into open space forming the base for new construction sites.


Within its [Hive Primus'] walls there are thousands of structural cells or domes, often many miles across and hundreds of metres high.
Page 76 wrote:
Quote:
Beneath the Wall lies the vast bulk of the working hive, ,the five-mile deep Hive City that extends from cloud-top level to the ground.
Height, apex to ground: five miles. 8047 m.
If we add a mile for the depth (arbitrary), we get 9656 m.
Largest base, ten miles. 16093 m.

Let's pick the stats for Manila:

Population: 1,660,714
Area: 38.55 km² (38.55 e6 m²).
Density: 43,079 humans/km²

Okay, say that people live in boxes with a ceiling height of two meters, all stacked vertically.
In a 6 miles high cylinder-city, that's 4,828 stories.

Total pop: 8,017,927,192, or 8 billion.

Halve that to get a nice cone, and that's 4 billion.
A weathered cone would obviously have a lower corresponding figure.

Now, I agree with IR's point that Thracia should have far more than 22 bn people if its city covered 70% of the surface. Or it had at some point in the past, but some severe population reduction cataclysm brought it that low, then making entire swathes of the city to be nothing more than ghost city blocks.

For an example, Earth's surface area is 5.1 e8 km². Manila's is 3.855 e1 km². The difference is of more than a million. If you take only 70% of Earth's surface, we could narrow that to a million, for sake of simplicity. So the city should boast a pop of 1.66 trillion.
At 22 bn, 1.325% of the city is inhabitated.

Now, there's a problem when IR cites a FFG book, cause I don't recall FFG belonging to Games Workshop.

Also, I'm puzzled as to how Vervunhive can sport 40 bn people when any map of the hive seen from above seriously disputes that. The map available at Lexicanum couldn't even allow the hive to rank over the billion bar.







The global 40K claim in regards to Tyranid adaptability is that they eat biostuff, if it's biotech they can replicate quickly, and it's good enough.
The nids have mimicked weapons, made them part of their own biology, and yet there are other bits of tech which were not organic which they don't seem to have understood at all.
They are creatures. Living. They need to eat or they starve. They lose energy, if primarily as black body rad in space, and even more in atmosphere (unless said atmosphere is as warm as a nid body).
So the nids, not growing crops or else, are on a run to grab more food. So they have no reason to stalemate any advance in FTL or webway tech. After centuries of incursion through the galaxy, you'd think they'd have leaked a good enough fast FTL tech by now. The best they got is the Narvahl's FTL tech, which seems to still be terribly slow (you know, since hammies love to claim hyper fast FTL, they'd obviously have to point out the nids possessing it as well!).

If not, how can we expect them to be able to open a portal to the 8472's realm, something only the Borg and the 8472 species did, before Voyager replicated the trick from what they got of the Borg?

Any quotation provided as shown rather moderate assimilation of biological traits, and very limited assimilation of tech knowledge possessed by species the nids ate.

The thing with the singularity portal is that a given type of beam needs to be pumped into a given point in space, until the "tunnel" is created. We've seen that as the Borg made Voyager go to fluidic space.
Assuming the nids can get a basic understanding of that tech (assumes that the portal is created by biotech or that the non-biotech part is also understood by the nids) and manage to produce a weak equivalent to it, perhaps the Nids could create such an aperture, but judging by how far they pushed their own FTL, it would therefore take them a while to open and stabilize one.

Nids in fluidic space is a scary thought. Depending on the size of that realm, they'd never feel hunger. It could be the ultimate prize, matter everywhere, anytime you move.

However, in the whole thread, I don't remember seeing a single piece of evidence that the Nids could get around the fact that 8472 cells' immune system, the one that both repels biological and technological micro-cells.
The phage could mimic the surface of cells, that's nice and all, but the problem comes when anything tries to get beyond the membrane.
So the phage cells can mimic all they want, but what goes on when they try to reach the core? They'd get destroyed.
There's quite a problem there. Unless the phage have some sort of remote sensor tech, which allows them to scan the cells the way the doctor did, the phage could not "read" the cells of species 8472.
And the phage, in the end, although being infiltrators, don't seem to be the cells capable of learning anything. In the thread, the only description I read of them was that they could defeat a Space Marine's enhanced immune system by tricking them. I don't recall the quote saying they could read DNA and reproduce it (assimilation).

Oh and even if a bioship is biological, what says that the DNA necessary to its growth/construction is present in any of its material? If the material has more to do with bone than solidified flesh...






At post 365, WR says:
In Titan:Vivaporus, the Tyranid planetary swarm took control of a Warlord Titan, infesting its structure and manipulating its technology. In Last Chancers, the destruction of a genestealer subverted rebel hive was mandated because the incoming Tyranid swarm would gain detailed tactical and strategic information from the data banks of the rebel High Command. An anti-tyranid psychic weapon, made from Nid biotech merged with Eldar psychoplastics , and powered/controlled by a high level psyker, is subverted and controlled by the Tyranid Hive Mind upon its use.
On the last one, I'm quite curious why this supposedly necessary device which the Hive Mind needed to use has not made it into the nid arsenal. What would the reasons be?






DSL wrote: The same shit you've seen a thousand times and dismissed. The depopulation of Camaas, BDZs, The decimation of 3 Gra Ploven cities from the black fleet crisis, Slave Ships recoil bracings capable of with standing the equivalent of a gigton explosion, bombarment of humbarine, bombardment of Milagro, KotoR comic showing the nuclear bombardment of some damn planet, Comic with the SD making nice explosions on moon/planet, The RotS page 1 quote, Bacta War series terawatts laser cannons, The line from the destruction of Sernpidal, RotJ novel thermonuclear fireworks line, ANH novelization space battle being visible from the surface, baradium fission bomb from Dark Lord, Large lake/ Small sea vaporization from Death Star.
Most of them have already been addressed. The KOTOR era bombardment of a planet was done with missiles which were huge. Nothing to fap about. For that size, in the realm of ICS numbers, you'd expect half the planet to be drifting across the local star system as red hot pebbles.
I'll try to find a picture later on if I can sort out the mess that my SW folder has become. :)
The appeal to page 1 of the ROTS novel is appalling.
I'm not sure how terawatt level laser cannons (actually made clear to be quite capable of several damaging capital ships) are a help to him.
Sernpidal, Milagro, that's been covered. Humbarine, I think, is the minuscule reference in a corner of the ROTS:ICS that says it was slagged. If anything, a Saxtonian addition that can't be used to defend Saxtonian material, otherwise that's circular reasoning.
The ROTJ novel and its thermonuclear explosions rocking a warship is just that. It's too vague, it could be partly hyperbole, it would require levels of energy never matched in the whole body of Star Wars' upper canon and completely dismantled by showings from the CGI show.
The spacebattle seen from the surface... just like in ROTS' novelization... is supposed to prove what? IIRC, Luke used goggles to see what was going on. You know, you can see satellites at night, if you're careful and lucky enough. Now seeing the explosions at day that whitened the whole screen... with goggles...
The baradium thing is an exception.
The reference about the Death Star's firepower is not going to help him, since it comes from the Death Star, which is far bigger than an ISD, and it says that even that firepower, capable of scorching a city or boiling a small sea/large lake, is above what an ISD can achieve even if firing all its cannons at once on full. In other words, bye bye ICS.
As usual, it's just the typical reboot tactic.







"Frankly after eating 12 Galaxies already I'm amazed the Nids really need to learn all that much from ours, and that they make even these changes shows they never let a good idea go to waste."

Huh. After eating 12 galaxies, I'm actually surprised they still needed to do that.

"why did Bio-Titans come about, they faced Titans and went 'We need a counter' Thats how fast they operate."

Mmm... the Tau countered that with... mere bombers.






Bluepencil is showing huge shortcomings in his debating.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=560

How can he miss the necessity of faster FTL (not necessarily from the Eldar, but the Ork or even captured IoM/Astartes assets) or even the ability to grow matter out of nowhere (wraithbone) when the Nids' sole way to augment their mass is to tax the ressources they could use as fuel, food or anything to repair themselves?

Now, Bluepencil's argument regarding the non relevance of webways to the nids does work as far as I can tell. If the tunnels are too cramped, if they're infested with daemons, and if no new tunnels can be made, it's not really worth it at all. Especially if there's nothing to gain from fighting deamons. That said, since the nids seem to cast that shadow in the warp thing, and since the Eldar seem to still be able to use those webways, why wouldn't the nids do the same? Unless they could not.
I can accept the idea of some tunnels being cramped, but then why not use the smaller ones, those that connect worlds, to fire some fast growing virus plague/spore. When Tyranids invade a world to feast upon it, they bombard it with said spores and let them eat the world's biomass so that it's literally ready to be slurped with giant squishy space elevator straws. It's hard to believe that the Nids wouldn't try to exploit that to start new beachheads. There is literally nothing to lose while doing so, and lots to gain, if only strategically, by entering new territories through backdoors.
Actually, strike that. We're talking about the Nids, who can even shrink a planet a bit when they really eat a lot. Are we to believe that the Nids can't spam-flood one of those webway tunnels and literally overrun any amount of daemons lurking around in it, in order to know that they'll get some of their bio stuff out on the other end of the webway?

Funny thing, those limitations due to game balance, and those new specimen meant to sell more miniatures. New specimen which are both hinted at being evolutions, and yet not necessarily being really "new" but more like closet-specimen previously shelved, like the Chtuluesque Ymgarls.








Things kept going on but didn't evolve much. Tik tried to point out what was wrong with Kor's train of thoughts, but I find it quite revealing why Kor is largely misunderstood. Among other things, see:
Tik wrote: It has also been pointed out that 8472 bioships are - shock horror - biological in design including the CPU. Everything, in fact, on that bioship can be consumed by the Tyranids.

Kor, I will lay out the facts for you in easy to understand steps:

1) 8472's bioships have the ability to open singularities.

2) This ability is encoded into their genetic material.

3) When the Tyranids consume this genetic material they will also consume the ability encoded into it.

4) Even species without 8472's genetic code/abilities could open singularities eg Borg, Feds. With the genetic codes, the Tyranids have more information to work with than either of those two.

5) The Tyranid Norn Queens will use this ability from 8472's genetic material for future Tyranid organisms.

6) Tyranids enter fludic space.
All things break down since point 2. Where is it ever said for certain that the technology is genetically encoded?
Bile or feces are "bio" are products of organs. While feces actually don't have any ability, bile does. Now let's imagine that the bile is super advanced, so instead of merely being about dissolving stuff, it's actually capable of opening singularities (after all, that's soft SF).
Let's imagine that 8472s grow their ships and then place that magic bile into their ships, like you'd add a gun to a warship's superstructure.
It could be a very advanced form of bone. Why would it need to be alive? A gun's not alive and yet it works. Now imagine the system that opens singularities is made of a wide variety of materials which are filtered and assembled by organs. Who says those organs are present aboard bioships?
So clearly, genetics alone isn't an instawin card. Scientific knowledge will be much more important and reliable, since at least we know bioships have to know somehow how to open those singularities.
All points following point 2 are therefore a long strong of errors based on a faulty assumption. Point 4 is a trademarked "biotech is superior" argument. How having absorbed genetic material, even if it possessed all is needed to know how to open singularities, would be superior in terms of information to Borg knowledge of how to open singularities?







There are other nid, hive and titan references worth looking at, if you're good enough at spotting book excerpts without having to read entire pages of boring exchanges.

And the "nom" meme is tiring.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: Y. Vong vs S. 8472 vs Tyranids @ SBC - some comments

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:39 pm

On the last one, I'm quite curious why this supposedly necessary device which the Hive Mind needed to use has not made it into the nid arsenal. What would the reasons be?

It got destroyed.
How can he miss the necessity of faster FTL (not necessarily from the Eldar, but the Ork or even captured IoM/Astartes assets) or even the ability to grow matter out of nowhere (wraithbone) when the Nids' sole way to augment their mass is to tax the ressources they could use as fuel, food or anything to repair themselves?
Exactly, they tried to say that it would be a worse replacement to chitlin and ignored the fact i said over and over that it would make a good addition.

All things break down since point 2. Where is it ever said for certain that the technology is genetically encoded?
Bile or feces are "bio" are products of organs. While feces actually don't have any ability, bile does. Now let's imagine that the bile is super advanced, so instead of merely being about dissolving stuff, it's actually capable of opening singularities (after all, that's soft SF).
Let's imagine that 8472s grow their ships and then place that magic bile into their ships, like you'd add a gun to a warship's superstructure.
It could be a very advanced form of bone. Why would it need to be alive? A gun's not alive and yet it works. Now imagine the system that opens singularities is made of a wide variety of materials which are filtered and assembled by organs. Who says those organs are present aboard bioships?
So clearly, genetics alone isn't an instawin card. Scientific knowledge will be much more important and reliable, since at least we know bioships have to know somehow how to open those singularities.
All points following point 2 are therefore a long strong of errors based on a faulty assumption. Point 4 is a trademarked "biotech is superior" argument. How having absorbed genetical material, even if it possessed all is needed to know how to open singularities, would be superior in terms of information to Borg knowledge of how to open singularities?
I made a few of those arguments myself.

The huill of a 8472 ship touching a borg cube ate through the hull of the cube...

Oh and this:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=941

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Re: Y. Vong vs S. 8472 vs Tyranids @ SBC - some comments

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:18 pm

A new beuty from blue pencil.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=959

Even ignoring all the rest of the crap his belief that because norn queens exist he can say any nid he feels is needed can exist just is a whole new level of self delusional wanking.
blue pencil wrote:Oh, you mean the Norn Queen? That IS sapient? And does experiment on various genotypes that may benefit the Swarm?
All you have shown is that a norn queen exists, just because it experiments on nids does not give you the right to arbitarily create what ever type of nid you think will help you with a argument you are losing and say "the norn queen could make this i win!!!".

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