My web site - finally uploaded

[Picard]

I thought that part is clear. How they achieve variable yields if torpedoes are always loaded with same amount of reactants? And don't say they don't achieve it, we see dozens of various explosions, from cannonball ones to those that make any today's nuclear weapon look like petard, without any lines indicating "oh, captain, we need to load torpedoes model 52, we have only 5 of these in total, but that should make it".

And yes, every Federation installation should have warp core, since fusion core cannot possibly provide enough evergy to keep shields up and running. Else even NX class should be able to take out Stardock or Starbase 375, which is insanity.

And whyt do you understand about "reactant density" part? If you increase density of reactant - or use denser one - you automatically have greater yield and better power production without increase in storage capacity. Not to mention that smaller guidance systems etc. leave more room for reactant storage.

And you totally ignored my safety point - 250 torpedoes loaded with reactants 24/7/365 is just asking disaster to happen.

[Mike DiCenso]

By the way, Picard. I was looking over your Photon Torpedo page, and discovered a math error in your scaling of the Pegasus asteroid. You claim that the yellow circle marks the entrance to the chasm the E-D went into, which in turn yeild nearly 9 km for the asteroid's length. When I did the measurements against it, I found that the asteroid was up to 22 times longer than the chasm opening's width, or a long axis length of between 18-22 km. Width or short axis would be between 12-14 km.
-Mike

[Picard]

Thanks.

[Picard]

BTW, I reuploaded it on different server due to reliability issues.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/

[Picard]

New scaling page - Executor scaling.

And sorry for necroing, but starting new thread due to single new page is really not worth it.

[Mike DiCenso]

Just looking at the scaling, I see some flaws. The aft section bulkhead of the Nebulon-B is closer to 80 meters, minus any other structures. The corresponding length of the Executor would then be 1,320/6 = 220 x 80 = 17,600 meters.
-Mike

[Picard]

Yup, thanks for noticing. I don't have time currently, but I'll redo page ASAP.

[Picard]

I did it.

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... aling.html

EDIT: And no, aft section of Nebulon B definetly isn't 80 meters, that transport is 90 meters long, sitting just right to hull of frigatte, and is over twice length of Nebulon-B's aft part (minus "wings" you seem to have included into your measurement).

[Picard]

I updated following pages:
- canon
- hull comparation
- Star Wars shields page
- photon torpedoes

They're still not uploaded, but I have problem with last one, and that problem can be summed up as "The Die is Cast". About minimum firepower I got (from visuals) suggests... well, damn it. I'll give full quote:

Torpedo explosion (outlined in yellow) has diameter of larger axis (which I will use for measurement, due to optical distortion in vertical axis from curvature of planet) is approx. 1/6th of planetary diameter (1/5.9). Assuming normal planet (diameter of Earth is 12 756 km), that is 2 162 km. Searching for it in Wongs calculator results in value of 31.9 teratons for torpedo. However, it might also be that effect was simply variation of "The Chase" chain reaction effect; that theory is supported by fact that, in subsequent battle, we do not see single Cardassian/Romulan vessel firing on Dominion ships - due to its nature, NDF/chain reaction will be ineffective against ships. Take your pick - although it is moot point, as TNG overrides DS9.

Only way to make TDiC DET AND to fit TNG is by assuming tritanium asteroid in "Pegasus". Given energy required to melt tritanium (vaporization is no longer required to destroy Pegasus inside) per-torpedo yield could go up to 6.08 x 10e19 to 2.44 x 10e20 MJ. That is 14.5 to 58.3 petatons per torpedo; my old calculations show that literary taking Tain's line about destroying crust in one and mantle in five hours results in low end of 50 petatons per weapon. However, coupled with previous chain reaction theory, and fact that we do NOT see any Cardassian or Romulan vessels firing on Dominion ships, it means that Star Trek weapons are NOT anywhere above low gigatons.

So I am interested in list of ALL episodes suggesting levels of firepower (low gigaton, high gigaton/low teraton, high teraton/low petaton). After I analyze them all, I hope to draw some reasonable conclusions. Thanks in advance.

(And no, I don't need details - just list of episodes and possibly short description of relevant data / parts in episode).

[Lucky]

I updated following pages:
- canon
- hull comparation
- Star Wars shields page
- photon torpedoes

They're still not uploaded, but I have problem with last one, and that problem can be summed up as "The Die is Cast". About minimum firepower I got (from visuals) suggests... well, damn it. I'll give full quote:

Torpedo explosion (outlined in yellow) has diameter of larger axis (which I will use for measurement, due to optical distortion in vertical axis from curvature of planet) is approx. 1/6th of planetary diameter (1/5.9). Assuming normal planet (diameter of Earth is 12 756 km), that is 2 162 km. Searching for it in Wongs calculator results in value of 31.9 teratons for torpedo. However, it might also be that effect was simply variation of "The Chase" chain reaction effect; that theory is supported by fact that, in subsequent battle, we do not see single Cardassian/Romulan vessel firing on Dominion ships - due to its nature, NDF/chain reaction will be ineffective against ships. Take your pick - although it is moot point, as TNG overrides DS9.

Only way to make TDiC DET AND to fit TNG is by assuming tritanium asteroid in "Pegasus". Given energy required to melt tritanium (vaporization is no longer required to destroy Pegasus inside) per-torpedo yield could go up to 6.08 x 10e19 to 2.44 x 10e20 MJ. That is 14.5 to 58.3 petatons per torpedo; my old calculations show that literary taking Tain's line about destroying crust in one and mantle in five hours results in low end of 50 petatons per weapon. However, coupled with previous chain reaction theory, and fact that we do NOT see any Cardassian or Romulan vessels firing on Dominion ships, it means that Star Trek weapons are NOT anywhere above low gigatons.

So I am interested in list of ALL episodes suggesting levels of firepower (low gigaton, high gigaton/low teraton, high teraton/low petaton). After I analyze them all, I hope to draw some reasonable conclusions. Thanks in advance.

(And no, I don't need details - just list of episodes and possibly short description of relevant data / parts in episode).

Where are you getting the temperature at which Tritanium melts? I don't recall that bit of information being given.

[Picard]

It is not. But it is said that hand phaser cannot melt centimeter-thick plate of tritanium. Then I assumed that it can melt 1 cm^3 of tritanium per second (I know, silly, and heavy low end - if it can melt 1 cm^3 of tritanium per second, then it can melt centimeter thick plate) and got its energy resistance from that.

[Picard]

I also updated Territory comparation, Imperial armor and Star Trek grenades pages; but I still plan on doing several more updates; I'll upload pages then.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

This is a good effort in that you used decent arguments, but I have a few complaints:

1. Why do you only use one photon torpedo calculation? Maybe you should use more to cross check it, such as the quantum torpedo incident of hitting a planet, perhaps the most quantifiable torpedo event in ST. Your calculation is highly subjective, assuming vaporization based on a sketchy premise.

2. Your claim of heavy turbolasers being mentioned in RotS AND them having a RoF of one shot every ten seconds is contradictory. Part of the quote:

The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats.

So either there were so many capital ships; far more than would help your side in the numbers category; that weapons firing once every ten seconds could fill the skill repeatedly, even though turbolasers would detonate upon hitting shields and therefore would only be seen in the sky for a second or even less, heavy turbolasers have a higher RoF than you claim or those weren't heavy turbolasers.

3. If capital ships move at 100 meters per second and the death star were just as fast, the battle of Yavin would have taken a month. It didn't; it took 30 minutes. In fact, by your claim, the only way for this to have happened is if the Death Star was past the curvature of Yavin, in which case there would be no reason why the base was stated to be on the far side of the gas giant.

4. You leave out industrial capability.

[Picard]

1. Why do you only use one photon torpedo calculation? Maybe you should use more to cross check it, such as the quantum torpedo incident of hitting a planet, perhaps the most quantifiable torpedo event in ST. Your calculation is highly subjective, assuming vaporization based on a sketchy premise.

Due to photon trpedoes having variable yield, I can use only exaples where it is stated or implied that torpedoes are about to be used on maximum yield. But all incidents give something to total picture - for example, you can't claim that "Pegasus" shows kiloton-range yield (as required for fragmentation, which most Warsies use to "prove" that Star Trek weapons are weak) if you have "Rise" and "Skin of Evil" showing same torpedoes to have yield in hundreds of megatons. Since all three examples are equally canon, and two of them are impossible to reinterpret without good deal of ignorance and/or dishonesty, you go for one than can be reinterpreted - namely, "Pegasus".

2. Your claim of heavy turbolasers being mentioned in RotS AND them having a RoF of one shot every ten seconds is contradictory. Part of the quote:

My ROF was for ISD, and is based on Battle of Endor. And even then I think it is too high, based on what we see; but I went for highest ROF that is not directly contradicted by canon. While I did include some pages about Republic army, focus of debate is usually on Empire vs Federation (Republic and Federation would probably trade rather than fight).

So either there were so many capital ships; far more than would help your side in the numbers category; that weapons firing once every ten seconds could fill the skill repeatedly, even though turbolasers would detonate upon hitting shields and therefore would only be seen in the sky for a second or even less, heavy turbolasers have a higher RoF than you claim or those weren't heavy turbolasers.

Problem is that novelization is inconsistent with movie. I do not remember seeing even single heavy TL bolt in movie, and althought Venator does have larger-than-average guns on each side of bow, I do not remember seeing them to fire. As for bolts fired by quad turbolasers at each side of tower, these are too small to be heavy TL. If you read the page, heavy TL bolt is 400 meters long.

http://www.theforceperu.net/files/2009/ ... ator_1.jpg

3. If capital ships move at 100 meters per second and the death star were just as fast, the battle of Yavin would have taken a month. It didn't; it took 30 minutes. In fact, by your claim, the only way for this to have happened is if the Death Star was past the curvature of Yavin, in which case there would be no reason why the base was stated to be on the far side of the gas giant.

It is standard speed. In space, it is possible to accelerate to near-lightspeed, if you have enough time and space to do it.

As for Death Star, I do not remember timeframe being mentioned. I also don't remember "far side" comment being made in movie; I might be wrong about that, thought. It was long since I watched movie.

4. You leave out industrial capability.

Beacouse we don't know anything about it. We know that Federation can build 39+ ships a year during time of relative peace (althought Cardassian Wars ended relatively recently, there is no indication of Federation treating it as anything else than a low-scale border conflict. After all, we know what properly motivated and sufficiently agressive Federation-level power can do to cardassia). We also know about Death Stars, but we don't know how long construction of both took, what are details, etc. For example, it is possible to build a ship quite fast, but electronics and machinery take long time to construct and be put into ship. Also, we don't know anything about lifespan and construction rate of average ISD. Etc. etc.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Problem is that novelization is inconsistent with movie. I do not remember seeing even single heavy TL bolt in movie,

...then why did you use the quote at all? Not only with your vaporize a small town part; but your argument behind them being HTL's is based on analyzing the quotes around shining hairlines of light and how, in your opinion, they are not visible from the ground unless if they were HTL's...and yet then you say that the quote is contradictory and that I cannot use the SAME WORDS to show that those were not heavy turbolasers, there were a HUGE amount of ships and/or heavy turbolasers have very rapid rates of fire?


note: IMO the quote does not contradict the movie, because it could very well be referring to the battle before the part we see on screen.


And something that I realized regarding your vaporization assumption:

The only way that could happen is if all the torpedos were fired at once, which we know is not possible as there are limited torpedo tubes and such does not happen even after the explicit order to "fire all weapons" in various episodes; instead, they fire at a few torpedos per second. But by your calcs, the asteroid would be fragmented after the very first torpedo, and therefore, the rest of the torpedos would have to track and vaporize every last piece of rock, which would divert to more of accuracy and how many torpedos they have than actual firepower.