Galactic Empire vs Federation of Planets @ Spacebattles

[Mr. Oragahn]

Heck, the same source that says Alderaan had no shields makes it also clear that a superlaser will be stopped by a planetary shield. Continents will be toasted, and that's all. Well, it's quite already a lot, and obviously a planetary shield is not going to generate something along the lines of e32-38 W. Just sayin'

But, more importantly, who still listens to JCI? Most people seem to mock her opinions at SBC.

[Mr. Oragahn]

More things.
First, I noticed that the "planetary shield" page on Wookieepedia (here) again has that frame showing Alderaan hit by the superlaser, with the following text:

Alderaan's shield overwhelmed by the Death Star's superlaser
JMAS
Added by JMAS

It is necessary to remove that. This wiki does not operate on the principles of original research. It's already a mess to have to sort out the erroneous figures of the ICS from the real facts, but that requires arguing, and in this department, the ICS "wins" (if we want to make things simple, because it requires ignoring the direct figures we have of the like of "terajoules", "near kiloton", etc.).
However, by playing the game of pure sourcing, it is therefore necessary to accept the fact that an EU source clarified the situation about Alderaan ages ago.

Now, on the topic at SBC, I've seen Rama claim that the shield at Hoth was found on the blackmarket, and part of his argument was to mean it was of inferior quality.

Is it necessary to point out that very worlds had even one planetary shield at all, and that, in fact and on the contrary, the Rebels - who at that time had more support than at the time of ANH - could find enough money to get a powerful shield solely for their base and nothing else?
What is the proof that this shield is of disputable quality?

It seems he's gone the same way as JCI did:

The Death Star superlaser was designed to basically say "what shields?", effortlessly cut right past enemy defenses, sweep aside orbiting fleets and blast an Earth-like planet like an overgrown hand grenade from the inside out.

This, for example, is patently wrong. Any planetary shield will stop a superlaser from mass scattering a planet.
And we're talking of the most powerful variant btw.
Remember:

Instead of weakening a shield, the superlaser is able to pierce through it by using a coupled neutrino charge. This neutrino charge not only plunges through the shield, but it penetrates the mantle and lower levels of the planet. Great chunks of the crust can be vaporized, sometimes sending the surface exploding outward with enough force to shatter the world.
[...]
Alderaan had no shields of any kind, so it was utterly vaporized. A shielded planet that is overcome by a superlaser may "merely" have its entire surface burned off or split into several pieces. Note that planets don't have to be destroyed to be rendered uninhabitable.

[Lucky]

More things.
First, I noticed that the "planetary shield" page on Wookieepedia (here) again has that frame showing Alderaan hit by the superlaser, with the following text:

Alderaan's shield overwhelmed by the Death Star's superlaser
JMAS
Added by JMAS

It is necessary to remove that. This wiki does not operate on the principles of original research. It's already a mess to have to sort out the erroneous figures of the ICS from the real facts, but that requires arguing, and in this department, the ICS "wins" (if we want to make things simple, because it requires ignoring the direct figures we have of the like of "terajoules", "near kiloton", etc.).
However, by playing the game of pure sourcing, it is therefore necessary to accept the fact that an EU source clarified the situation about Alderaan ages ago.

Instead of weakening a shield, the superlaser is able to pierce through it by using a coupled neutrino charge. This neutrino charge not only plunges through the shield, but it penetrates the mantle and lower levels of the planet. Great chunks of the crust can be vaporized, sometimes sending the surface exploding outward with enough force to shatter the world.
[...]
Alderaan had no shields of any kind, so it was utterly vaporized. A shielded planet that is overcome by a superlaser may "merely" have its entire surface burned off or split into several pieces. Note that planets don't have to be destroyed to be rendered uninhabitable.

That page needs to say that planetary sheilds do not cover all of the planet.

I can't see how they can claim ANH backs up Aldraan having a shield. Just looking at the movie you can see it does not. Heck T and G canon make it very clear such shields are not common, or commonly used even if they are there.

Why would Alderaan have had it's shields up when the Death Star shot it with it's Superlaser?

Edited because i left out a word the changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

[Mike DiCenso]

Why would Alderaan have had it's shields up when the Death Star shot it with it's Superlaser?

Assuming that Alderaan had a shield to put up in the first place, I can see any number of reasons that they would have it raised up prior to the superlaser being fired at the planet. If for no other reason it is a desperation maneuver.... just to do something.... anything rather than just sit around helplessly.
-Mike

[Lucky]

Why would Alderaan have had it's shields up when the Death Star shot it with it's Superlaser?

Assuming that Alderaan had a shield to put up in the first place, I can see any number of reasons that they would have it raised up prior to the superlaser being fired at the planet. If for no other reason it is a desperation maneuver.... just to do something.... anything rather than just sit around helplessly.
-Mike

Sorry I accidentally left out the word not.

Alderaan would have only have the shields up if they thought they were endangered, and the shield systems I recall would have still been going up if they realized the superlaser was firing.

I know of nothing that says Alderaan thought they were in danger until the death star fired.

If the Empire had ordered the shield on that would have been shown in the movie or book.

[Mike DiCenso]

We may assume that the Rebellion's intelligence on the Death Star was also known to Alderaan. There is also the following passage from the ANH novelization:


Nonetheless, he turned to them and insinuated himself into their conversation. "The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was a impressive as it was thorough."
-Darth Vader, Star Wars: A New Hope, page 129-130

From this, we may assume that Alderaan, whatever it's defenses were, did manage to get them up and running in an attempt to deal with the Death Star.
-Mike

[Lucky]

We may assume that the Rebellion's intelligence on the Death Star was also known to Alderaan.

There was little reason even if Alderaan knew what the Death Star was to put up a defense unless they knew they were going to be shot, and not pretending to not know could be worse.

There is also the following passage from the ANH novelization:


Nonetheless, he turned to them and insinuated himself into their conversation. "The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was a impressive as it was thorough."
-Darth Vader, Star Wars: A New Hope, page 129-130

From this, we may assume that Alderaan, whatever it's defenses were, did manage to get them up and running in an attempt to deal with the Death Star.
-Mike

The quote shows that the Empire wanted to test the Death Star against a planet that would shoot at it, and send fighters to attack.

The quote does not show Alderaan had a unique shield system that covered the entire planet.

If Alderaan had a shield system the quote implies the mundane theater shields that are used to only cover small areas, nothing that would block a turbolaser just hitting some forest.

[Mith]

The fact is that it couldn't have had a shield. Not only because we're told that it doesn't, but the implication of what would happen should it have a shield; the entire surface would have been scorched or possibly have broken the planet apart, but it wouldn't have exploded like that.

Simple fact.

EDIT:

As for the Rebels having a marked down shield generator...what? That thing was an absolute monster of a generator. It was like what, five to ten meters in length? There's absolutely no way they could have been a knocked down shield generator. More so if the Empire couldn't penetrate it through bombardment.

They may in fact have shields that cover a planet, but it wasn't located on Alderaan and it would hardly matter if it were, since we know that the DS isn't a pure DET weapon thanks to the novel Death Star.

[Lucky]

The fact is that it couldn't have had a shield. Not only because we're told that it doesn't, but the implication of what would happen should it have a shield; the entire surface would have been scorched or possibly have broken the planet apart, but it wouldn't have exploded like that.

Simple fact.

Then there's the fact that we just don't see any sign of a shield in the movies, and none is talked about in the novel.

EDIT:

As for the Rebels having a marked down shield generator...what? That thing was an absolute monster of a generator. It was like what, five to ten meters in length? There's absolutely no way they could have been a knocked down shield generator. More so if the Empire couldn't penetrate it through bombardment.

Maybe bigger equals cheap, and out dated? ^_^

They may in fact have shields that cover a planet, but it wasn't located on Alderaan and it would hardly matter if it were, since we know that the DS isn't a pure DET weapon thanks to the novel Death Star.

There has never been shown a single shield that covers a planet, and i seem to recall something in a RPG book that stated the only reason they are called planetary shields was because they were on a planet rather then a ship.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Indeed, it's clearly said that planetary shields are theater shields, and full planetary coverage is only done with overlapping shields.
Of interest, the Wookieepedia page shows a shield projector as they were on Bothawui, and you can see a strong resemblance with the one at Endor. It reminds me we had calculated an estimation of the number of Endor shields needed to cover an entire planet at a low altitude. It was quite enormous.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Alderaan was a pacifist planet which had intentionally divested itself of offensive surface-to-space weaponry

That's what Leia claimed. She also claimed that she knew absolutely nothing about the rebellion. There is this thing called lying.

Except that it's further detailed in EU sources. Alderaan adopted a philosophy of pacifism after the Clone Wars, dismantled all of its weapons and placed them on Another Chance, the flagship of the Alderaanian fleet. Another Chance and three escorting cruisers were then programmed to jump randomly through hyperspace until recalled, which could only be done by the Alderaanian Council; the rest of the fleet was scrapped and melted down into commemorative medals.

Mmm... really?

The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should think that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough.

Now that their main source of munitions, Alderaan, has been eliminated, the rest of those systems with secessionist inclinations will fall in line quickly enough, you'll see.

Besides, it's not so neutral...



Alderaanian influence anyone?



Notice that if it was typically known for being a Rebel outfit, Vader would have obviously not behaved the way he did aboard Tantive IV.

[Mike DiCenso]

Indeed, it's clearly said that planetary shields are theater shields, and full planetary coverage is only done with overlapping shields.
Of interest, the Wookieepedia page shows a shield projector as they were on Bothawui, and you can see a strong resemblance with the one at Endor. It reminds me we had calculated an estimation of the number of Endor shields needed to cover an entire planet at a low altitude. It was quite enormous.

In the "Base Delta Zero" thread my over-generous calculation came up with 25 Endor-class shields to cover an entire Earth-sized planet.

Your follow-up calcs, which were far less generous, placed the number at 2,304 Endor-class shield generators to do the job.
-Mike

[Picard]

And what about RotS novelization? I think it states that Coruscant was protected by planetary shield, but Separatist fleet was already under it by time it was raised (unless Serafina or whoever told me that lied - I wom't be surprised if it is case).

[Mike DiCenso]

You were "lied to" in the sense that Serafina is dead to wrong about the Seperatist fleet being trapped under any shield. There is certainly nothing in the RoTS novelization that says any such thing as you can read for yourself in the annotated passages here at RSA's site.

If you find anything about Coruscant having shields, please let the rest of us know. If there is a retcon explanation in the EU books of the discrepancy between older EU material that says there is a full coverage shield, and the PT movies and novelizations that says there is not, please point out the source and quote it verbatim.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

If the fleet was trapped under the shield, how could Grievous escape in his escape pod?

Why did - according to the novelization - several ships try to prevent an escape of the Invisible Hand by blockading the way?

How could Obi Wan and Anakin, who arrived at Coruscant only after the battle has already begun, reach the battle if the battle was inside the shield-perimeter and they outside of it?

All this makes only sense if there was no shield behind the fleet.

Of course it is possible to invent an elaborated story how all that could be possible with a planetary shield nevertheless. But then the question, why nothing of this was mentioned in the movie or its novelization, would remain. Insofar, such a story wouldn't be very plausible.