Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: Sans the fact that every instance in which the Federation were incapable of vaporizing asteroids without significant amounts of energy being involved even for them such as in Pegasus, Deja Q and The Paradise Syndrome, one instance in which a torpedo with an increased yield (by 11%) barely fractured the asteroid it impacted in Genesis (let alone turning the entire nearby field to vapor), that the E-D could not destroy an asteroid with a dense iron core even with several subsequent following torpedoes in Cost of Living, that the E-D had to supplement the aid of a minor solar prominence to destroy a vessel that their weapons were utterly useless against in Descent, part II, similarly three Dominion attack craft are destroyed whilst sitting on the leading edge of a CME during the episode Shadows and Symbols, that Voyager was forced to ground herself when under attack from Turien weapons that generated barely gigajoule range blasts when used in atmosphere during the episode Dragon's Teeth. Then there's the fact that we see one Bajoran Raider and two Interceptors dog fighting over the surface of a planet in The Siege.
Pegasus: involved a magic asteroid that had gravitational and magnetic fields more hazardous then a star, and Riker a guy known for seemingly not knowing what his ship can do and underestimating it wanted to remove any sign the Pegasus was ever there as fast a possible. That tells us logically anything, but a high end interpretation of what Riker intend is out of the question, and that implies gigatons if the asteriod was mundane which it was not.
Deja Q: Isn't this the same Moon they could destroy with no problem, and was causing tidle effects similar to Earth's Moon, and make a crater larger then the asteroid that?
The Paradise Syndrome: What is know about said asteroid?
Genesis: What proof is there the asteroid was at maximum yield?
Cost of Living: An asteroid core that was made out of fictional materials with unknow properties.
Descent, part II: In Desent part II they artificially create a fictional solar phenomenon called a solar fusion eruption. We can't know what the properties are of a SFR, and therefore inspite of what some would like can't know how powerful one is.
Shadows and Symbols: I haven't seen the episode, but i seem to recall the flair to be oddly powerful, and artificial.
Dragon's Teeth What are the properties of Turien weapons?
The Siege: They dog fight and...
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: The resultant Interceptor attacks are barely enough to shake the very tree lines they hit, and yet they directly threaten the vessel as per comments from the two pilots. This is the same class of vessel that was capable of leading a standoff against a Romulan Warbird in Shadows and symbols, and whilst were not a direct threat by itself, was enough to give the Romulans pause for thought despite their intention of taking the system by force. We also have that fact that sitting fifty million kilometers away from a Neutron star would be hazardous to their shields within minutes according to Allegiances.
What is Rama talking about? I don't think I have heard of the episode before.
So how much energy would hit the ship at the safe distances in Allegiances, and is there anything odd about it?
Right, let's ignore the fact the Jemmie ships seem designed for ramming, and have shields themselves.
It's mostlikely a VFX screw up. Trek loves to show things moving slower then they are, and how do we the object was just a peace of debree?
Star trek shields are the same type of defenses used in Honor Harrington after all.
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Impell ... ller_wedge
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Space_ ... _Shielding
http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Trek/Movi ... ni0369.jpg
The whole lasers are useless thing is not a no limits fallacy.
And what is this astroid made of that lets it survive things warships can't? The Defiant had to be 800 kilometers from the blast.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: We then also have the Federation fleet forced to turn the defense turrets surrounding Chintoka on their own buried generator in Tears of the Prophets. These are weapons that have been seen gutting Galaxy-class warships during the battle, and yet their own weapons barely even pound sections of the rocky surface.
So they had to exploit a weakness in a shield to destroy it. That speaks well of the shield, but says little about UFP capabilities.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: At [1:20] there should be explosive fragmentation and massive vaporization, with 50% of the rock being reduced to a crater with just a single 64 gigaton warhead; even if the rock was 40km across and made of nickel-iron, a 100 gigaton warhead would be sufficient to cut it in half. And again, these are weapons that go straight through a GCS, and cut Romulan Warbirds apart. And yet their combined plasma torpedoes had no effect sans minor cosmetic damage.
How nice that there are things in trek that enhance the durability of materials, and materials that are far more durable the nickel and iron that seem common in trek.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: There's also the fact that the only known Starship power generation figures we have for the Warp Core (10E12 and 10E18 watts respectively) are nine orders of magnitude away from making exaton level power levels (10E27) anywhere near realistic at a minimum, and fifteen orders of magnitude at a maximum interpretation of the quote.
The only known power generation figures for a starship are not for it's maximum output, but for when it is just sitting in orbit.
Right.... It's a good thing there is a smiley face or I might think Rama was serious about the above.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: No evidence required. Kirk states that he intends to follow through with the destruction of the inhabited surface (surfaces that have a population), that it would take some hours, and that he intends to destroy their civilization through the targeting of cities and installations.
That's no more proof of petaton tactical systems than it is supporting evidence of megaton level weapons. In fact the deliberately specified targets (those being population centers) and the duration of the destruction (requiring multiple volleys) far more leniently supports my postulation that they cannot casually blast entire hemispheres off the map with contention or through accidental discharge (as your claims would require) of tactical weapons; thus they cannot effortlessly destroy asteroids with their torpedoes less than a century later, or survive sun diving events unharmed.
I'd love to see quotes to back this up since I seem to remember the Enterprise D at least worrying about such things.
I do hope Rama was not talking about the part above the smiley.
Like the first part of Rama's post?
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote:Well done, you've just defeated your entire argument in one sentence. It takes a true artist to prop a point so poorly, then immediately self-terminate it so swiftly.
A) Note that O'Brien doesn't specify what kind of damage we're talking about specifically, but as I can see from your firepower, you've falsely assumed it meant total fireball radius.
B) The reason I call it a false assumption?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGmRrbX6 ... r_embedded
Watch from [3:00]. First problem with your claim, the bomb explodes too early, and continues to slowly release the energy caused by the blast. Whilst the surface facility is destroyed, the asteroid beneath it is utterly unharmed. A 512 TT detonation would melt-vaporize a 45 km wide nickel-iron asteroid in a second, and we know the facility isn't that large since we can see a 90 meters Jem'Hadar fighter in the foreground of a shot performing a flyby of the facility:
Neat the blast was in slow motion, and Rama assumes that all of the explosive went up all at once, he assumes there was nothing protecting the asteroid, and that it was made of things found in the real world. Rama is illy.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: The asteroid then does explode seconds later, rather violently, but it still only leaves massive fragments that almost equal Sisko's vessel in scale. The subsequent "slow" detonation of a 500 TT warhead would have turned the whole thing gaseous vapor expanding in a cloud of plasma, instead we get to see a weird space fireball followed by a shit ton of rocks and dust. This is again assuming a 45km nickel-iron rock, instead of a chunk of proto-planetary matter that is perhaps a few kilometers across at most.
So clear example of slow motion, and where do we learn what the asteroid is made of, and what it's defenses are? It was a very important place to the Dominion.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: C) We also have the problem that even if we assume that this was a 500 TT blast, the fighter would only absorb a fractional amount of the energy as per inverse square law. In fact if we look at the explosion as an omni-directional sphere, the vessel would only absorb 1-5 TT even if I'm feeling generous (and not 50% of the energy as you described in a previous post- idiot), and yet she was severely damaged despite being not only far from the blast, but by absorbing a tiny fraction of it
This is what inverse square law looks like:
Which means that even if the Voyager absorbed a Supernova (), she will only absorb as much energy as her surface area will allow her to, not how much energy it is propelling into the entire area. And yet these are vessels that are deemed worthy enough to go toe-to-toe with capital ships in albeit greater numbers, so why aren't they instantly roasted by their own petaton weapons when they fire them at close range (which is three OOM greater than a TT)? Or by Federation weapons? How can they threaten the Defiant (which according to you can turn the surface of a planet to "cinders") when absorbing a fraction of a TT is enough to severely damage it?
Clearly they are much more durable then Rama give them credit.
We are talking about Star destroyers that get destroyed by flying near stars after all, and blow up from asteroid strikes. They lost two Star destroyers in the Hoth system to asteroids.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: D) Worse still, this was a strategic bomb laced with a technobabble element that they used in lieu of their own weapons (which would have blown the asteroid back to stellar gases if they had petaton weapons); which was clearly technobabble since real explosives don't go from being tiny puffs of fire, to an actual explosion in ten seconds.
It's a good thing Star Wars uses much weaker weapons then.
Where is Rama getting his information about what the targets can take?
Does anyone have a quote one way or the other? I don't quiet remember what was said, but I know that they needed the supernova to at least be taking place, and I seem to recall it actually being an implosion.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: That's so cute! Look at you trying to use real-world science, and fail at doing so!
Here's a hint genius. Look up inverse-square law, which states that whatever energy is transmitted omni-directionally in her totality, only a fraction is going to be absorbed into the surface area of a smaller object at a greater distance.
Which means that if a main-sequence star going nova has a surface area of 6.08E12 km^2, and Voyager has a surface area of 0.103 km^2, the surface of Voyager will only absorb 1.69E-12% (or 0.00000000000169%) of the total energy of the supernova. Which is still quite a lot of energy, but still never actually happened.
Why do I have the feeling Rama is missing something?
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: Circular logic.
If a Warbird can damage the E-D, and the Borg cannot be damaged by the E-D, the Borg must be more powerful than both.
Which still ignores the following pile of evidence that stands between you and your claims of petaton-exaton tactical weapons:
Sans the fact that every instance in which the Federation were incapable of vaporizing asteroids without significant amounts of energy being involved even for them such as in Pegasus, Deja Q and The Paradise Syndrome, one instance in which a torpedo with an increased yield (by 11%) barely fractured the asteroid it impacted in Genesis (let alone turning the entire nearby field to vapor), that the E-D could not destroy an asteroid with a dense iron core even with several subsequent following torpedoes in Cost of Living, that the E-D had to supplement the aid of a minor solar prominence to destroy a vessel that their weapons were utterly useless against in Descent, part II, similarly three Dominion attack craft are destroyed whilst sitting on the leading edge of a CME during the episode Shadows and Symbols, that Voyager was forced to ground herself when under attack from Turien weapons that generated barely gigajoule range blasts when used in atmosphere during the episode Dragon's Teeth. Then there's the fact that we see one Bajoran Raider and two Interceptors dog fighting over the surface of a planet in The Siege.
The resultant Interceptor attacks are barely enough to shake the very tree lines they hit, and yet they directly threaten the vessel as per comments from the two pilots. This is the same class of vessel that was capable of leading a standoff against a Romulan Warbird in Shadows and symbols, and whilst were not a direct threat by itself, was enough to give the Romulans pause for thought despite their intention of taking the system by force. We also have that fact that sitting fifty million kilometers away from a Neutron star would be hazardous to their shields within minutes according to Allegiances.
Let's not also forget that BOP's were getting dropped left, right and center by ramming Jemmie fighters in Tears of the Prophets, the E-E loses 30% of her shields after scraping her nacelle against a loose piece of relatively slow moving debris in Nemesis, a 90 isoton explosive only manages to explosively fracture the asteroid it is planted on in Time to Stand, rather than outright vaporizing it in milliseconds, or the crew using their own weapons to vaporize the asteroid itself. We then also have the Federation fleet forced to turn the defense turrets surrounding Chintoka on their own buried generator in Tears of the Prophets. These are weapons that have been seen gutting Galaxy-class warships during the battle, and yet their own weapons barely even pound sections of the rocky surface.
(see video)
At [1:20] there should be explosive fragmentation and massive vaporization, with 50% of the rock being reduced to a crater with just a single 64 gigaton warhead; even if the rock was 40km across and made of nickel-iron, a 100 gigaton warhead would be sufficient to cut it in half. And again, these are weapons that go straight through a GCS, and cut Romulan Warbirds apart. And yet their combined plasma torpedoes had no effect sans minor cosmetic damage.
There's also the fact that the only known Starship power generation figures we have for the Warp Core (10E12 and 10E18 watts respectively) are nine orders of magnitude away from making exaton level power levels (10E27) anywhere near realistic at a minimum, and fifteen orders of magnitude at a maximum interpretation of the quote.
- - -
But yes, other than those demonstarted feats of tactical weapons and shields being far less than even a solitary gigaton, I have no other evidence that Federation, Romulan or Klingon tactical systems cannot bypass the petaton range.
See what happens when you begin to throw a spanner in the works?
Rama has demonstrated a lack of something. I'll assume just a bad memory.
It's not like we have seen trek ships drill thousands of kilometers in seconds. TDIC is hardly an outlier.
What CME is Rama talking about? It sounds like Rama is talking about Desent part 2, but there was no CME in that episode that destroyed a ship. It was a solar fusion eruption so calculating a CME is pointless, and weren't there some odd things about the Star like it's temperature?
What is Rama talking about? What Episode is Rama talking about?
And nothing that counters it. General order 24 implies planet wasting power.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: Uh, so that planet with the giant dark ring isn't glowing because the scene we see takes places decades later? Where the rock would have finally cooled off, most of the ejecta would have fallen out of high orbit thanks to a fluctuating gravitational pull, the all encompassing clouds of atomized soil and rock have finally settled after orbiting the planet as super-heated particles and the giant continent sized cracks pulverized into the surface were glued over by Elves.
Damn, that's about as close to reasonable as about the most intelligent thing you've uttered thus far.
How does one reconcile what we see at the end of Obsession? The blast did make that crater, and blew off half the atmosphere, but did not seem to leave a glowing crater.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: Where the Doomsday Machine slowly pulled apart pieces of the planet so slowly that the crew of a Federation starship could be heard screaming and pleading whilst they were still on the surface being attacked for an unknown period of time? By using some sort of technobabble "pure" antiproton stream that would actually have no other effect other than to increase the negative charge of the target and do...
...nothing else.
Death Star Superlaser > Technobabble beam that draws matter from a planet over an unknown period of time.
The Doom's Day machine was using DET.
The Death Star as high as G-canon is technobabble.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: So sound is now an effective weapon in space
Good God, this is like the Learning Channel, if it was hosted by a five year old. Quick tip: The decibel is widely known as a measure of sound pressure level, which has no function in space since space is a god damned vacuum. This is no more impressive than if I were to claim that a Star Destroyer could tank a petaton if she could survive being blasted by an Aerosmith concert from Mars.
Read a book (or preferably stay in school) you Chimp.
And yet the weapon was meant to be used on ships in space. It doesn't matter how silly it sound, it happened in the series.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: Read the dialogue again. Nobody says Riker is wrong, nobody even glances at him puzzlingly. Instead Data offers a solution that involves bypassing the need for power, by sending the message via a pre-exiting carrier signal.
As an analogy, imagine that you were trying to send a radio message to someone in the next town, but the transmitter in your CB was too weak. Now here I come along with a microwave transmitter that allows me to contact anyone in the globe. You relay your message to me, which allows me to then broadcast it with ease.
Your transmitter hasn't spontaneously grown anymore powerful, instead you've opted to use another system that can manage the output. Does that mean YOUR radio is now stronger as a result? No, it doesn't.
Data did essentially the same thing.
Context showed Riker was refering to the comunacations system.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: However, at the exact moment he finishes saying his line, the warp core goes critical and starts to glow brightly in the very same scene, causing a potential blow-out that would have destroyed the ship if a demi-god wasn't present to stop it. So this is clearly not the reactor working at safe levels, especially when just seconds later they were a hairs breadth from turning to gaseous particles.
And that was Q testing Amanda's abilities, and not the ship.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: Mhm, so treating you like an intelligent adult doesn't work. Treating you like a child doesn't work. In fact attempting to communicate through even neolithic gestures seems to fail.
I know, a diagram should work (because if having a Dog has taught me anything, is that if you cannot tell a dumb animal what to do, you have to show it).
Riker claim > No refutation > Data statement
Riker made the claim long before Data made a statement in regards to the irrelevant composition in regards to the gravity of the effecting their propulsion (which is clearly nonsense, since we see their engines working in a gas giant or near stars - and gravity had no effect on their engines - so appealing to it having a high gravity is clearly nonsense), and no one questioned his judgment or patted him on the head and told him he was a good little Commander right there. He based it on the scale of an object in what he called a rocky asteroid field, and given his experience, would have known that if he could apply the same power - tactically - as TDiC, then he could have made the asteroid dissipate in seconds.
This is Pegasus again isn't it? The asteriod that Riker want to at least vaporize.
Wasn't it described as nearly a planet or something like that?
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: However this merely asserts my view, since it is asinine to believe that they programmed the screen to include superfluous details that wouldn't exist in the first place (such as giant ripples that don't intersect along the surface, the presence of clouds along the upper layers); therefore they were using NDF weaponry to blast the crust away, not DET, and thus why those supposed "energies" could not be scaled up to the tactical level, such as against denser asteroids or other starships.
Rama has not proven disruptor and phasers are NDF of course Rama can't because the there is nothing in Star trek that NDFs something. Rama mean DNE, but still has yet to prove it is less energy intensive then DET.
The fact it used the Tech manuals as sources is enough reason to ignore it. They are the same as N-canon material in Star Wars, and phasers do do collateral damage.
Rama Post 573 http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=176730&page=23 wrote: Appeal to nonsense. Please find me any evidence that proves that this incident is exempt from the typical behavior of continent destroying DET weapons without appealing to the bullshit claim that the Romulans rely on tactical viewscreens that block out what is actually happening, and in some cases even fabricate details that would never occur.
I believe this actually has been proven that in trek that set their view screens to block useless information. I just wish I could remember in what thread.
Why would you want to be shown things like blinding flashes of light?
