Kythnos:
Before I give my answer as to why the "floor" stopped the characters I want to point out that it is flawed and does not answer all the problems of those scenes. Like how the characters are able to run while phased when they should not get any friction to use traction. So other than saying that I have put many more hours of thought into than the writers did.
This answer works...
tecno-BS wrote:
The floor is covered in "Gravity plates" that project a 1G field almost completely unidirectionaly, I say that because we never see anyone crawling on the ceiling or people hair fall toward it. They Grav-field is holding them down because that is as far as they could fall. They maybe able to go through the floor if they could gain enough momentum, other wise it is like jumping on a trampoline.
Neat idea, and fits with what we see, but I would think VFX limitations would explain some problems.
It might be a misnomer to say "breath" as they might not need to, absorbing o2 from the non-phased air directly.
This doesn't sound like it should work. If there is notable interaction between phased and non-phased things then a phased thing on a ship for example would be very noticeable.
You should be able to add microwaves, and any part of the EM spectrum, to the list of thing that can hurt a phased ship, as it effects phased matter with little if any difference. So if they are using a "faraday cage" to harden their systems, that has just failed.
This would mean that you could find a phase cloaked ship with a phaser beam, but then that would have made the problems in "Next phase" not problems.
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Norade:
The obvious counterpoint to the last bit is that the gravity of the asteroid was far less than 1G.
Why would the asteroid the pegasus was trapped in have less then 1G? We are out right told the magnetic and gravitational forces inside the asteroid are more extreme then a star or planet's are we not?
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Kythnos:
You do realize the very existence of the Death Star is proof that it is not made out of "Steel" right?? (no I guess you don't)
Why can't the death Star be made out of steel?
Aren't we told in the novelization that the Death Star is made out of steal?
Fighters could pass through because the DS1 was using "Ray Sheilds" only. DS2 fixed the mistakes of the first one and did not suffer the defects from DS1.
It is specifically stated that the first Death Star was protected by a powerful magnetic field was it not?
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Picard:
Tritanium. 21.5 times harder than diamond; in 2364 Federation phasers were unable to melt centimeter thick plante of tritanium. It is able to withstand temperatures above 12 000 ° C without showing signs of melting. That is pretty much all we know about tritanium from direct evidence (statements).
It might or might not be "best", but is very widespread in ship and starbase construction.
About best material... probably neutronium (carbon-neutronium alloy, actually)
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Neutronium
but it is not regularly used in starship construction (or anything else - actual use of neutronium is rather sporadic and Federation does not seem to be able to do it).
fallendragon:
So the best starfleet can actually make is weaker then Durasteel? That is interesting...
Since when has Dura steel ever shown to be better then Trek alloys? The stuff can be bent and broken by a human as I recall, and I don't recall spectacular showings in G or T level canon, but I could be wrong.
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Norade:
So you've given us fuck-all about this shit really, being hard and heat resistant is something that we can do today but it ends up being brittle. Actually it would make sense if Starfleet's hulls were pretty weak as the need powered fields to hold the hull together under maneuvering power and they're noted to sag under their own weight in a gravity well. We also see that them making a landing on the planet damages the saucer badly. This in addition to them needing to manually close hatches to facilitate the saucer's ejection. When they do hit the loosely packed dirt and trees, nobody has anyway to strap in, consoles explode as if loaded with fireworks, crew members and children are tossed sometimes meters across the ship, lab equipment falls, windows shatter from contact with simple dirt, parts of the ceiling - some two meters long - rain down upon the crew, and in the final impact even the chairs don't stay bolted to the deck.
Enterprise Crash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2XubB89Un4
This is very unlike the far tougher hulls that survive nearly un-powered landings, with only minimal damage, we see nobody tossed around as they're all strapped in, not a single internal control explodes, in fact the controls still seem to work though the braking flaps and engines they should control are no longer there, and all thsi even though they strike a surface far harder than dirt.
Invisible hand Crash:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2319059/h ... _from_sw3/
Though the exact weight of what was left of the Invisible Hand when it crashed is going to be very tough to calculate exactly, we can see that roughly a 500m long section of the ship crashes and that section is roughly a cylinder with a diameter of 150m. If we assume that it is half empty and what is left is only as dense as iron we get a mass of roughly 35 million tons, if we assume that it has reached a terminal velocity of only 55m/s it will hit with a force of 5.247E+13J or 12.5 kilotons of force and the surface of the runway wasn't even damaged though a runway tower was. This says something about the toughness of Star Wars building materials.
Is Norade saying the invisible hands controlled landing was as bad if not worse then the the uncontrolled barely working E-D's crash? This is suppose to make Star Wars look good? Is he/she forgetting the tensor fields holding the I.H. together?
Where are Star Trek building materials shown to be brittle?
Where is it shown Star Trek ships fall apart without SIF?
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Kythnos:
I should point out that the Federation uses a Tritanium Alloy and is therefore mixed with other metals and would not necessarily have the same properties as the original ore. The hardness would be reduced I am sure to make it useful in construction.
Or the alloy could be better then the sum of it's parts in every way.
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Serafina:
Yes, i DO have evidence, which you are constantly ignoring. All ships with a phase cloak on board were eventually destroyed by it (excluding the Enterprise, who only used it for a short time). The Klingons, Romulans and the Federation all abandoned their research into it, and we never see it being used by anyone (including the more advanced Borg and Dominion) with anything but prototypes.
So the burden of proof is on YOU to show that they can even build it again, and within a few weeks too.
Furthermore, just because something was "build to do something", it can't necessarily do it under all circumstances. For example, battleship cannons are built do destroy things. That doesn't mean they can destroy everything. Basic logic - just another thing you fail utterly.
And last but not least, you have presented zero evidence that they can penetrate shields with the phase cloak.
Isn't Picard almost the only one backing up their claims with evidence?
How about simple optical instruments? Oh, right, ST sensors failed to detect Datas shuttle in Insurrection, even tough it would have been visible with a simple telescope.
Star Wars the land where the mark one eye ball has longer range, and better resolution then top of the line star ships.
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Serafina:
Furthermore, since the cloak and phase-parts of the thing are apparently separate, why didn't they build just the phase-part? Given that it would make their ships virtually invulnerable, any sensible military would go after it no matter what.
This is an interesting question, but the phase and the cloak are one thing as I recall. It may not be possible in trek to build a pase device that also does not cloak?
You fail utterly at logic. Just because something is supposed to do something, it can't automatically do it. Especially when it's still a prototype. That's not even logic, that's just basic common sense.
A seemingly working prototype that as far as I can recall was never destroyed.
The Empire is very capable of building shields that stop physical impacts. They can easily equip the second Death Star with them if they want to. That they choose not do do so with the first Death Star is no proof, given that there are many possible reasons not to do it - such as enemy ships (supposedly) being no threat, or the fact that ramming attacks are utterly useless anyway.
like they do planets? Clearly there is some limitation when it comes to shields in Star Wars or else every planet would be expected to be shielded like they are in Star Trek.
Moron. The (tangential) point was that ST-sensors are sometimes WORSE than the MK I Eyeball and basic optic instruments.
But nooo, you just went "SW-sensors=suck" without any logic, intelligence or proof behind it.
Star Wars sensors are always worse then the Mark I eyeball. This is G canon since ANH as I recall.
What proof is there that the mark one eyeball could have detected the ship Data was in?
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Picard:
What ever those pipes are they certainly appear to be part of the reactor, and lead straight to it. They are also mostly on completed sections of the D-II. What the bleep are they?
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fallendragon:
Picard what is your proof that the Enterprise was allowed to keep the phase-cloak?
What proof is there that they didn't keep it?
What proof is there that they didn't keep the designs?
The treaty as I recall stops the UFP from legally building, and using cloaks.
And since when has one good test = funtioning device?
A prototype that does exactly what it is suppose to do is a functioning device even if it has some room for refinement.
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Serafina:
Then why is no one ever using it?
Right, sorry, your are imagining things again.
There is that treaty that the feds at least pretend to follow like the Romulans.
Did he use a phase-cloak? Hmm?
Sisko was not suppose to use the second rate Romulan cloak in the AQ.
Yes, it has shown that it can penetrate a low-density material. Not that it can penetrate thick layers of dense metal. That's just you jumping to conclusions.
Ignoring the odd qualities of the asteroid the Pegasus was stuck in?
Yes, we don't know it. Thanks for admitting that. But you just automatically conclude that it can, can't you?
Ignoring the odd qualities of the asteroid the Pegasus was stuck in?
Again, you don't get what i am talking about. When they can't detect a ship that is visible to the naked eye, then that's pretty good evidence that their visual sensors are worse than just a simple eye.
Is there any proof to support this?
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CaptJodan:
-The Federation kept the plans and prototype. This isn't backed up by anything, and it was likely politically nonviable. Once the Romulans knew of the existence of the cloak, they would have undoubtedly demanded the prototype be destroyed and perhaps demanded a kind of "inspector" program to ensure that no one else tried to create the cloak again. That Picard allowed the Romulans to see the cloak and see the treaty violation puts Starfleet in a position that forces them to rid themselves of the technology.
Does it? We don't know what the exact wording of the treaty say.
There is no talk of it breaking the treaty to keep the designs, and The UFP never broke the treaty.
-The US went to the moon. That doesn't mean we can go to the moon again in 6 months or a year. When funding for a highly secret and highly expensive project is cut, the ability to recreate that technology is often lost and you have to start from scratch. In the case of the moon, no one was looking over our shoulder forcing us to get rid of it. The same can't be said for the Romulans in regards to the cloak.
This assumes that it would be hard for the UFP to make the cloak in the first place, and that the designs were destroyed.
Finally, the Federation was involved in a war that they very well could have lost with the Dominion, and came close to losing on several occasions. They were allied with the Romulans in that war. Parts of the Federation engaged in duplicitous acts that violated the Federation charter. Section 31, the organization most likely to have had the prototype or plans to the phase cloak because of their clandestine nature (and the Federation's most "dirty tricks" organization), never mentioned or used such a device to help save the Federation and billions of lives. They instead had to rely on biological weapons. There were no proposals to use the device against Borg incursions, equipping ships in secret for the next Borg incursion, a race that likely threatens everyone in the Alpha quadrant. As Serafina pointed out in shorter terms and Picard ignored, there have been instances where a phase cloak would have been appropriate, but it never appears.
<Sarcasm>Gee, those Klingons and Romulans sure seemed to use their cloaks a lot</Sarcasm>
We don't know Sec31 doesn't use cloaks.
Yes, let's give the borg a reason to attack.
In short, it's pretty blindingly obvious that the phase cloak is lost technology. There was one, probably not fully perfected, prototype that was likely destroyed along with all the data that made it in order to hold to their treaty. Whether because they can't make it anymore or because they don't have the political will, the result is the same. There wouldn't be a phase cloak on the battlefield in a Trek vs. Wars scenario because there wasn't one fielded in the Dominion War, a war they were very close to losing, nor for any kind of Borg defense. Also, no hint of such a cloak in any possible future timeline we see.
Translation: It's better then any Star wars cloak which don't even completely hide a ship so I'm going to make a lot of assumptions to make it sound worse then it is.
