Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

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Lucky
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Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Lucky » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:56 am

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 8&t=145280

i rarely lurk at Stardestroyer.net, but I was doing that today, and came across this thread.

DaveJB
Unfortunately for the Trekkie in question, not only would a 690GT yield for photons grossly contradict what we've seen on-screen (particularly in TNG: The Pegasus and VOY: Rise), the Technical Manuals don't even support such a figure; they pretty explicitly give 64MT as the theoretical maximum yield for a photon torpedo - the DS9 one I believe also gives 128MT for quantum torpedoes - and simple physics show that you can't get more destructive power out of the amount of antimatter used.
I don't recall TNG: The Pegasus and VOY: Rise ruling out higher yields? The Pegasus seemed to be in the turn that space rock into vapor or smaller range, and Rise was in the they only used just enough boom range.

Is there anything to actually put an upper limit on the boom a photon torpedo can cause as far as what is shown on screen?

I love how they ignore all the magic substances that seem to exceed E=MC^2. ^_^

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:38 am

Lucky wrote:http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 8&t=145280

i rarely lurk at Stardestroyer.net, but I was doing that today, and came across this thread.

DaveJB
Unfortunately for the Trekkie in question, not only would a 690GT yield for photons grossly contradict what we've seen on-screen (particularly in TNG: The Pegasus and VOY: Rise), the Technical Manuals don't even support such a figure; they pretty explicitly give 64MT as the theoretical maximum yield for a photon torpedo - the DS9 one I believe also gives 128MT for quantum torpedoes - and simple physics show that you can't get more destructive power out of the amount of antimatter used.
I don't recall TNG: The Pegasus and VOY: Rise ruling out higher yields? The Pegasus seemed to be in the turn that space rock into vapor or smaller range, and Rise was in the they only used just enough boom range.

Is there anything to actually put an upper limit on the boom a photon torpedo can cause as far as what is shown on screen?

I love how they ignore all the magic substances that seem to exceed E=MC^2. ^_^
The levels off hippocracy on SDN are quite astounding.

1. They say screen material debunks the 690 gigaton material but support the ICS 200 gigaton.

2. They support the 64 megaton material from the TM but deny the 690 gigaton material from the same book.

3. They deny the canoninity of all the TM material in general even though it is part of wongs wank on his site.

Personally i think that saying any race capable of charging around space using their own advanced propulsion tech along with all the other crap we see is incapable of vastly exceeding the yields we have today is rather dishonest.

Maybe in B5 where a gate network allows any ship with the right activation signal and ability to follow the path in hyperspace to the next gate would allow low tech races to cross the distances between stars, but that is not how its done in trek.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:13 am

Oh, that IvanTih bloke is over there as well. Expected.
Now, I'm surprised Rama hasn't jumped yet.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:47 pm

Lucky wrote:I don't recall TNG: The Pegasus and VOY: Rise ruling out higher yields? The Pegasus seemed to be in the turn that space rock into vapor or smaller range, and Rise was in the they only used just enough boom range.
Actually, "The Pegasus" is all over the place in what yields you can get from torpedoes. Warsies will naturally take the lowest ones they can get under the their "mistaken" assumption that the asteroid was only 5 km wide and "mostly hollow". However as several threads here and elsewhere have shown, the asteroid is at least 9 x 6.5 km, and the mostly hollow myth is easily debunked with simple geometry and volumetrics calculations since the tunnel fissure that the E-D was in made up far less than 1 percent of the total volume and even several such tunnels would not make much of a difference. The lowest numbers then become high kiloton range to low single digit megatons per torpedo under the assumption that the asteroid only gets fragmented. On the upper end of the scale, you get an insane 100 gigatons or more per torp.

The "Rise" asteroid is another one they love to manipulate by again by underscaling the size and pulling the situation far out of it's original plot context. The shattering done to the asteroid was not normal. They expected near-total vaporization based on the understanding that the asteroid was a natural one made of nickel-iron. It turns out later as a critical part of the plot that the asteroid was an artifical construct designed to resist being vaporized so that at least parts of it could crash onto planets that it's builders desired, drive off the current inhabitants, and allow them to stake their claim to the planet in the aftermath.

Given the probable "Rise" asteroid size scalings, the statements and most important the critical plot point of the episode, you wind up with several tens of megatons as the minimum yield for the single photon torpedo, and upwards of low single digit gigatons.
Lucky wrote:Is there anything to actually put an upper limit on the boom a photon torpedo can cause as far as what is shown on screen?
No, not really, other than possibly DS9's "The Die is Cast", and VOY's "The Omega Directive".
-Mike

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:54 pm

I think "The Pegasus" argument is stupid anyway, if i was going to extrapolate what riker said into a yield theory i would take into account what was going on and the circumstances as well.

Riker says it would take most of their photon torpedoes and considering the ROF of a galaxy class and that the romulan warbird was only seconds away from them id say he was refering to the torps they had loaded not the entitre ships compliment.

How the hell does anybody think that the E-D could fire 250 torps in the few seconds it would take the warbird to fly over and start beaming away chunks of the internal components of the Pegasus?.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:00 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:The levels off hippocracy on SDN are quite astounding.

1. They say screen material debunks the 690 gigaton material but support the ICS 200 gigaton.

2. They support the 64 megaton material from the TM but deny the 690 gigaton material from the same book.

3. They deny the canoninity of all the TM material in general even though it is part of wongs wank on his site.

Personally i think that saying any race capable of charging around space using their own advanced propulsion tech along with all the other crap we see is incapable of vastly exceeding the yields we have today is rather dishonest.
It's called cherrypicking, Kor. It's what they've always have done since the begining of the debate. They won't give even the slightest advantage to Trek, no matter how obvious it may be. That's how Wong's propaganda site is set up and that is how many of his followers act in any debate.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:11 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:I think "The Pegasus" argument is stupid anyway, if i was going to extrapolate what riker said into a yield theory i would take into account what was going on and the circumstances as well.

Riker says it would take most of their photon torpedoes and considering the ROF of a galaxy class and that the romulan warbird was only seconds away from them id say he was refering to the torps they had loaded not the entitre ships compliment.

How the hell does anybody think that the E-D could fire 250 torps in the few seconds it would take the warbird to fly over and start beaming away chunks of the internal components of the Pegasus?.
What Riker says is that it would take "most of their photon torpedoes", not all of them. That is another Warsie myth that I see being tossed around or that destroying the asteroid was impossible for the E-D period, as though it were fact, when it is not. How much exactly is "most of" out of a load of 250 torpedoes is not easy to quantify beyond it being more than half of them. So if they are having to fire off 200 torpedoes, and the maximum rate of fire is 4-5 every other second, then in the minute they had until the Romulans arrived would mean they could fire off at least 120 to 160 torpedoes.
-Mike

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:58 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:I think "The Pegasus" argument is stupid anyway, if i was going to extrapolate what riker said into a yield theory i would take into account what was going on and the circumstances as well.

Riker says it would take most of their photon torpedoes and considering the ROF of a galaxy class and that the romulan warbird was only seconds away from them id say he was refering to the torps they had loaded not the entitre ships compliment.

How the hell does anybody think that the E-D could fire 250 torps in the few seconds it would take the warbird to fly over and start beaming away chunks of the internal components of the Pegasus?.
What Riker says is that it would take "most of their photon torpedoes", not all of them. That is another Warsie myth that I see being tossed around or that destroying the asteroid was impossible for the E-D period, as though it were fact, when it is not. How much exactly is "most of" out of a load of 250 torpedoes is not easy to quantify beyond it being more than half of them. So if they are having to fire off 200 torpedoes, and the maximum rate of fire is 4-5 every other second, then in the minute they had until the Romulans arrived would mean they could fire off at least 120 to 160 torpedoes.
-Mike
The size and composition of the asteroid and the intensity of destruction involved make a bigger much bigger difference in the yield estimates, but the assumption of using all torpedoes is an example of squeezing every possible "fudge factor" against Trek.

SDN figures for "Pegasus" involve grossly underestimating the mass of the asteroid and then assuming it was going to be blown into 10m chunks with little to no vaporization.

I see "Pegasus" as potentially quite useful for estimating PT and phaser yields (blowing their way out of the tunnel is an option, and the Warbird easily melts a similar quantity of rock), but it's an example that requires careful evaluation, with a couple orders of magnitude of leeway remaining even after all the details have been accounted for.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:25 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:The levels off hippocracy on SDN are quite astounding.

1. They say screen material debunks the 690 gigaton material but support the ICS 200 gigaton.

2. They support the 64 megaton material from the TM but deny the 690 gigaton material from the same book.

3. They deny the canoninity of all the TM material in general even though it is part of wongs wank on his site.

Personally i think that saying any race capable of charging around space using their own advanced propulsion tech along with all the other crap we see is incapable of vastly exceeding the yields we have today is rather dishonest.
It's called cherrypicking, Kor. It's what they've always have done since the begining of the debate. They won't give even the slightest advantage to Trek, no matter how obvious it may be. That's how Wong's propaganda site is set up and that is how many of his followers act in any debate.
-Mike
The problem is that Wong's website is wrapped in a fair amount of propaganda, but I think this part got lost on SDN warsies. Hell, even Wong started to believe in his own Blitzkrieg after a while.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:41 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The problem is that Wong's website is wrapped in a fair amount of propaganda, but I think this part got lost on SDN warsies. Hell, even Wong started to believe in his own Blitzkrieg after a while.
Yea id say the line between role play and belief has been well and truly lost on that site.

I still do not see how the E-D was supposed to be able to fire "most" of its 250 torps in the few seconds it would take the warbird to fly over and beam up chunks of the internal crap from the Pegasus.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:56 pm

The point being that with the E-D rate of fire for torpedoes, and the idea that it would take most of the torpedoes to achieve the destruction of the asteroid, it's clear that significant fragmentation would occur. No matter what, the E-D would find herself shooting down debris sooner than her crew would wish. It's absolutely clear to me that at some point they'd have to focus their fire on the Pegasus the moment they'd spot a sign of its presence.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:28 pm

That is part of the problem, we don't know how any such actual operation would have carried out. We only know that Riker seems fairly certain that most of the torpedoes would need to be expended in the operation. A majority that we have no exact number for.... it could be 150 to 249. Riker may even have been a bit overly conservative in his estimates to be on the safe side, and to ensure the total destruction of the Pegasus.

We do not know the particulars as Pressman overruled Riker's suggestion. We will never know, and all we can do is speculate.
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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:31 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The problem is that Wong's website is wrapped in a fair amount of propaganda, but I think this part got lost on SDN warsies. Hell, even Wong started to believe in his own Blitzkrieg after a while.
To be cynical, Wong probably doesn't buy into his own BS, but rather defends it as a way of maintaining the personality cult he's got going at SDN.
-Mike

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:05 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The problem is that Wong's website is wrapped in a fair amount of propaganda, but I think this part got lost on SDN warsies. Hell, even Wong started to believe in his own Blitzkrieg after a while.
To be cynical, Wong probably doesn't buy into his own BS, but rather defends it as a way of maintaining the personality cult he's got going at SDN.
-Mike
I don't know if it's true or not, but his cult - because there's no other word for it, even if it seems over dramatic and far fetched... some would say fan club - provides him a solid ground for his cheap and short sighted attacks, the ones he's still fond of years later, when he comes out of the woods.

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Re: Photon Torpedoes do 690 gigatons?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:42 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The problem is that Wong's website is wrapped in a fair amount of propaganda, but I think this part got lost on SDN warsies. Hell, even Wong started to believe in his own Blitzkrieg after a while.
To be cynical, Wong probably doesn't buy into his own BS, but rather defends it as a way of maintaining the personality cult he's got going at SDN.
-Mike
I don't know if it's true or not, but his cult - because there's no other word for it, even if it seems over dramatic and far fetched... some would say fan club - provides him a solid ground for his cheap and short sighted attacks, the ones he's still fond of years later, when he comes out of the woods.
He seems like a very angry and less than rational person at times even though he claims that rationality guides most of his opinions.

Bad tempers can lead to a bed end, you could ask the guy in the vid below about such things but unfortunatly he is dead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvztjk1fz94

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