Starfleet Jedi

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I believe the vertical speed wasn't that high. With half that speed (that would be about a vertical speed of half the length per second), you get a figure that's four times lower.
Figures on Internet show that the ship is only 62~66 meters high. Going for 64 m/s, the KE figure is 28.89 times lower (1.4 TJ).

Sorry, I went back and viewed the video. The ship's vertical speed is far faster than what you are estimating as she drops vertically in one second nearly four ship heights while still showing the the same forward velocity of about 344 m/s. So they have a forward velocity of 344 m/s and slam into the ice with a horizontal velocity of around 250 m/s 5.8 TJ. Also you can see at 0.42 that the ship's bow is digging into the ice with it's leading edge, thus the energy is more concentrated that you are claiming. In addition, recall earlier the ship sheering through the ice mountain's peek with a forward velocity of 344 m/s and 40.46 TJ. Not to mention the slide out after impact still has the ship plowing through the snow and ice at well over 250 m/s. No matter how you try and slice this, it's a very impressive showing since the saucer section is raised up (they may be generating lift at this speed), and the front face of the deflector dish is taking the brunt of the forward impact.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I believe the vertical speed wasn't that high. With half that speed (that would be about a vertical speed of half the length per second), you get a figure that's four times lower.
Figures on Internet show that the ship is only 62~66 meters high. Going for 64 m/s, the KE figure is 28.89 times lower (1.4 TJ).

Sorry, I went back and viewed the video. The ship's vertical speed is far faster than what you are estimating as she drops vertically in one second nearly four ship heights while still showing the the same forward velocity of about 344 m/s. So they have a forward velocity of 344 m/s and slam into the ice with a horizontal velocity of around 250 m/s 5.8 TJ. Also you can see at 0.42 that the ship's bow is digging into the ice with it's leading edge, thus the energy is more concentrated that you are claiming. In addition, recall earlier the ship sheering through the ice mountain's peek with a forward velocity of 344 m/s and 40.46 TJ. Not to mention the slide out after impact still has the ship plowing through the snow and ice at well over 250 m/s. No matter how you try and slice this, it's a very impressive showing since the saucer section is raised up (they may be generating lift at this speed), and the front face of the deflector dish is taking the brunt of the forward impact.
-Mike

I pushed the enveloped even further and acquired the video.
With this, I noticed several things.

1. You are right about the vertical speed. I observed the height by which the ship fell over one frame, and got a speed of 216 m/s.
   
   
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   The yellow line represents the altitude at which the apex of the ship is found in the next frame. That's for the vertical displacement.
   
   Estimating the force of impact is not so easy. For one, the ground is nowhere tough. Ice and snow is a mixture which is about one of the weakest natural construct you can find.
   What matters is momentum, and the momentum in this case is particular. As the starboard fore edge hit the ground first, it made the ship spin. It formerly was banking starboard side by more than 15°, and diving by 10°. The impact on the edge of the saucer brought the ship even.
   I suspect the nacelle also hit the ground. We don't immediately see the cloud of water in the frame of impact, but it's visible in the next frame. The "valley" which the ship landed in wasn't particularly that large at all, so it's hard to imagine the nacelle not hitting. The fact that the large puff of pulverized ice and snow first appears on the starboard side, behind the ship, would obviously confirm that something else on the back of the ship hit the ground. However, due to the slope, this impact would be globally more important (hence the larger cloud) but not as intense per square meter of impacted hull.
   Rather obviously, considering the quite moderate first puff of ice when the saucer touches the ground, it's extremely hard to believe terajoules of kinetic energy ever manifested themselves there.
   
   Now, in said following frame, as the ship is spun clockwise (when looking at the picture), the vertical speed is almost completely nullified. So it's logical that the belly of the main section hits the ground. Considering that this section is very close to the center of gravity of the ship, this is where the impact matters the most. But it's also the section that's the largest in order to spread the force of impact against the snow and the ice. Besides, the portside nacelle is probably hitting the ground by now, or about to do so.
   A portion of the force was already lost by the first two smaller impacts.
   
   In the next frame, the nose of the ship is pushed upward as it starts to go through the ridge of the snowy hill. The ship has also stopped spinning clockwise.
   
   More than kinetic energy, what you want to look at here is angular and then linear momentum.
2. Regarding the peak, the ship only grazed it. It never impacted anything of consistence. Not to say that tens of terajoules delivered into that point would have considerable thermal effects if we followed your reasoning.
3. The ship gliding on snow is nothing impressive at all. The hull is going to deflect most of the forces. The ship is, at this point, purely skying. There's precisely nothing impressive here.
   What we see though, is that when a real obstacle, solid, made of stone and all that, hits the forward section of the portside nacelle, then it's critically damaged. And the saddest part of it is that the nacelle didn't really hit the equivalent of a vertical wall either.

Just a little comment on the snow crashing thing:
First, the scene implies a planet, only the location Voyager crashes on is snowy.
But that means a hard planetary "crust" below the ice.

Second, at Voyager's mass, no snow on earth would offer much impact cushioning to she ship...

Third, Ice is damn hard, espaecially if it is compacted, which is why it can sink ships, and destroy your car if you plow into a snow bank filled with ice chunks...

So a crash on an icy/snowy surface isn't that weak, and is nothing to scoff at...

Plus Voyager's hull is duranium, not tritanium.

As an update, Thanatos has officially given permission for people to put Ricrery on their ignore list for Vs. Debate.

I believe that's the first time it's ever been sanctioned by a mod.

Of course, this was after Ricrery said that Castle Bravo couldn't be a 15 megaton explosion because it sank a small island. According to him, a 15 megaton bomb can't do that. Because he says so. As it is, his posting has dramatically fallen off since this announcement. He's probably weighing his options now.

As it is, Ricrery1 and Kitt come from another forum that does VS.debates. It's far more sane. Ricrery1 basically became the village idiot there and then shipped over to Spacebattles during the 40k debates that lit up the board. So he isn't a puppet--I don't even think he's just trolling for shits and giggles. He really isn't nearly as smart as he tries to pretend to be.

Right now though, his options have been pretty much kneed. Ignore function has been sanctioned specifically for him as an exception to a rather strict rule for that forum and this, thanks to Kitt's presence on both forums, will probably carry well back over, so he really won't have much to do. Assuming his account wasn't banned, he can still post, but the sheer blow from SB.com's verdict will probably seal his fate there.

That pretty much leaves him with SDN.net (yeah right), Starfleet Jedi (he'd last a few threads), or ASVS. The later is his best option, but probably no better in the long run given me and Oraghan would probably be on his ass at something resembling warp velocities.

Hmmm, perhaps I should ask Kitt to join up here...or at the very least, see what Ricrery1 is up to. He did after all, seem to take a liking to stalking me and trying to dig up dirt.

Mith wrote:As an update, Thanatos has officially given permission for people to put Ricrery on their ignore list for Vs. Debate.

I believe that's the first time it's ever been sanctioned by a mod.

A fascinating developement. While this gives me hope, this clearly is nothing like the level of punishment Thanatos and others have meted to pro-Trek debators in the past. Why put him on an ignore list, when a temp ban would be in order? Won't Ricery1 still have a "voice", and be able to post more insanity in response to someone?
-Mike

As an update, Thanatos has officially given permission for people to put Ricrery on their ignore list for Vs. Debate.

I believe that's the first time it's ever been sanctioned by a mod.

Got a link?

Mith wrote:As an update, Thanatos has officially given permission for people to put Ricrery on their ignore list for Vs. Debate.

I believe that's the first time it's ever been sanctioned by a mod.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=658

As it is, Ricrery1 and Kitt come from another forum that does VS.debates. It's far more sane.

SciForum?

Right now though, his options have been pretty much kneed. Ignore function has been sanctioned specifically for him as an exception to a rather strict rule for that forum and this, thanks to Kitt's presence on both forums, will probably carry well back over, so he really won't have much to do. Assuming his account wasn't banned, he can still post, but the sheer blow from SB.com's verdict will probably seal his fate there.

I've rarely seen that amount of slap. Mind you, there are equally deficient debaters over there, but contrary to Ricery, they don't try to take a jab at every possible franchise.

That pretty much leaves him with SDN.net (yeah right)

He gets shredded.

Starfleet Jedi (he'd last a few threads)

Too long to type.

or ASVS.

They already have Jason.

The later is his best option, but probably no better in the long run given me and Oraghan would probably be on his ass at something resembling warp velocities.

Transwarp, AFAIACKEIMCD.

Hmmm, perhaps I should ask Kitt to join up here...or at the very least, see what Ricrery1 is up to. He did after all, seem to take a liking to stalking me and trying to dig up dirt.

Perhaps you smell strong?

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Mith wrote:As an update, Thanatos has officially given permission for people to put Ricrery on their ignore list for Vs. Debate.

I believe that's the first time it's ever been sanctioned by a mod.

A fascinating developement. While this gives me hope, this clearly is nothing like the level of punishment Thanatos and others have meted to pro-Trek debators in the past. Why put him on an ignore list, when a temp ban would be in order? Won't Ricery1 still have a "voice", and be able to post more insanity in response to someone?
-Mike

My guess is that he doesn't see Ricrery so much as trolling, so much as he is incredibly stupid. I would say he does troll to a degree, clearly with Trek that is the case, but him having an axe to grind is less of an offense than his immense stupidity.

That and it's probably because three members had already openly declared putting him on ignore so he figured it would just be easier than bothering with infraction points or something like that. :p

Mr. Oragahn wrote:SciForum?

Correct.

I've rarely seen that amount of slap. Mind you, there are equally deficient debaters over there, but contrary to Ricery, they don't try to take a jab at every possible franchise.

Yes and no.

Yes, there are some pretty poor debators, mainly regarding the 40kers and the Warsies, but they do put forth arguments that are at least, considerable. Inquisitor may goalpost and cherrypick his evidence, but Ricrery is ten times worse.

At the very least, you can make some headway.

He gets shredded.

Yep.

Too long to type.

It'd be like Superman skinny dipping into a pool of kryptonite.

They already have Jason.

True. But then again, Jason's a Trek Idiot. Watching the two go at each other would be like watching two retards flailing blindly at each other with sticks.

Transwarp, AFAIACKEIMCD.

=D

Perhaps you smell strong?

Or maybe he's lost one too many arguments with me and he knows it and decided he might win something by throwing out Ad Hominem's.

Mith wrote:Watching the two go at each other would be like watching two retards flailing blindly at each other with sticks.

I know I have thin skin when it comes to things like this, but please try to keep this kind of comment to yourself, or find a less derogatory way of putting it...
Thanks.

Praeothmin wrote:

Mith wrote:Watching the two go at each other would be like watching two retards flailing blindly at each other with sticks.

I know I have thin skin when it comes to things like this, but please try to keep this kind of comment to yourself, or find a less derogatory way of putting it...
Thanks.

...You have a nerve on this? oO

Um, alright. Unstoppable force meets immovable object?

I don't like people making fun of the mentally challenged, even if it's just to illustrate a point.

Unstoppable force meets immovable object?

Much better... For me, at least... :)