Star Trek Vs Halo...

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Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Lucky » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:53 am

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... ost5236779
Here we have kyosanim VS ricrery

I would love to know how ricrery came up with 10 meters wide and 10 kilometers deep for the tunnel they drill in "Inheritance". Is there some actual semi-logical reason to choose those numbers?

The episode was very clear the had tunnel had to be thousands( about 3,000) of kilometers deep for their plan to work. If the light seen at the top is daylight then the hole's diameter is much bigger then ten meters.

I rather liked Kyosanim's examples of kinetic impacts verses what happened to the Defiant.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:17 pm

Lucky wrote:http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... ost5236779
Here we have kyosanim VS ricrery

I would love to know how ricrery came up with 10 meters wide and 10 kilometers deep for the tunnel they drill in "Inheritance". Is there some actual semi-logical reason to choose those numbers?

He likely started with a low forepower figure worked backwards and rounded to the nearest zero.....
The episode was very clear the had tunnel had to be thousands( about 3,000) of kilometers deep for their plan to work. If the light seen at the top is daylight then the hole's diameter is much bigger then ten meters.
You know that, i know that but it means higher firepower figures than warsies are happy with so....................

PS: It is not daylight and you can tell that if you take a screenie of it and focus right in on it.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:50 pm

I never understood why people think the borg would want to nuke the pheonix instead of just stopping the flight.

They only have a sphere and limited members so why blow up a ship that while uber basic compared to their tech is still a warp capable ship with parts they can assimilate and use?.

The low yield makes perfect sense at least to a borg way of thinking as it stops first contact but preserves the materials ect.

A) Taste of Armageddon: Kirk orders the Enterprise to fire on cities, when an exaton would be enough to eradicate a significant part of the planet completely. Destroying a city, of course, can be done with low kilotons.
A planet of cities, there are thousands upon thousands of cities on earth and why would they need to fire at fll power to destroy them if kilotons are all that is needed.

Lots of fast kiloton shots would be better i would have thought.
B) The Die is Cast: 20 Romulan and Cardassian warships fire upon a planet. The bombardment shows no fireballs, no ejecta, and a dim illumination. This is definitely not a kiloton event.
Are these really the same guys that go and and on about ST NDF weapons whe it suits them?.

NDF and subsurface detonations explain all that.
C) Starship Down: A 12.5 megajoule KE impact punctures right the Defiant's hull. Doubtless it has a much stronger hull than any other UFP ship too.
I tought the torps were specifically designed to penitrate hulls and then explode.

The torp had no damage to it at all where it penitrated the hull and a glowing tip, it was obviously a form of AP system.
D) Nemesis: Even though the Scimitar has nearly full shields, an undamaged hull, a KE event no more than 5 kilotons not only defeats its shields, but destroys its hull as well.
FEH, no shield flash = no shields......visuals > dialog.....or is that only for TDIC?...

Also at full impulse and the scimitar moving forwards as well (as seen in the clip) the momentum of shps at impulse can move small moons.......
E) Insurrection: Two Son’A ships, who together can defeat the Enterprise-E, and take quantum torpedoes without worries, are destroyed by the chemical incendiary explosion that results from the detonation of that metrion gas. Chemical reactions like those are a joke even in comparison to fission/fusion reactions, let alone those absurd M/AM reactions.
Chemicals that can give eternal youth?, can we get a quantification on that gas please?.
F) First Contact: A Borg Sphere; a large Borg ship that laughs at Alpha Quadrant races and their ship, fires upon the Phoenix silo. If it had even kiloton (or even sub-kiloton) weaponry, the entire area would have been destroyed, but instead we see explosions in the megajoule range detonate all over the place. Don't even try to say that it's a lifeboat and thus doesn't have any weaponry, because then why would the Borg arm it all?
They intened to stop first contact and firing low shots did that (as per assimilated earth).

The borg would not want to waste a warp capable ship when it could be assinilated or its components used.
G) Skins of Evil: A photon torpedo detonates on a planet, it creates a mushroom cloud that lasts less than a second. This is an extremely low kiloton event at best.
Fireball size gives us high gigatons to low teratons.
H) For the Uniform: Same as above, except the quantum torpedoes last just slightly longer, but the difference in firepower is barely noticeable.
Warhead changed to a biologiocal weapon....
I) Survivors: A 400 gigawatt blast takes out the Enterprise D's shields, and the crew is not really all that surprised by this.
A god did that it cannot be quantified and is also contradicted by more reliable material.
J) Alliances: The Voyager not one, not two, but three photon torpedoes upon a ship 2 stories above a building. The ship is threatened enough to leave the area.
1. The ship was a kazon shuttle,
2. phasers would have melted the people below if the ship had moved before the beam was expended.
3. If they had used anything but ultra low yield torps they would have killed the people in the summit, and destroyed the entire town/city....kinda defeating the object that was to save lives.
K) Dauphin: A single terawatt has a bigger output than the entire Enterprise D.
Than the E-D's communication system.
L) Night Terrors: A measly hydrogen explosion is stronger than the Enterprise D's photon torpedoes and phasers combined.
Who said it was the hydrogen that exploded and not the stuff the other guys had that packed the big punch?.
M) Descent Part II: A coronal mass ejection violently destroys a Borg Cube. Even assuming the strongest one from our solar system (1x10E^25 J) had hit the Borg cube with 1 40 forty billionth of what it is worth, then 900 kilotons can destroy a Borg Cube. We also know that plasma is weaker against ships in ST, remember?
It was not a borg cube it was a ship assimilated by lore and fucked up borg.
N) Legacy: Carving a hole 1 meter in diameter and 1.6 kilometers in depth over 14 seconds requires 660 tons exerted each second.
Try 2500-3000km deep and a lot wider.
O) Timeless: Voyager impacts the surface with a KE event of 200 tons, and yet it receives considerably more damage than what you usually see several photon torpedoes or phaser beams do to a ship.
Voyager is structurally sound, the crew die due to inertial dampener failure.
P) Genesis: Photon Torpedoes that have their output enhanced by 11% only fragment asteroids barely bigger than themselves.
The guidance system failed and given what we see so did the detonation circuits for the M/AM.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:34 pm

Oh, you're having a bite at Ricery's list as well. He doesn't give a shit. He posts everytime, in every single ST thread. It's been going on for weeks.
His list is largely absurd and best ignored. Too many people have already provided too many good rebuttals, or greater degrees of perspective. Ricery doesn't even understand the meaning of outlier, thinking that everything that disputes his list is an outlier, even if the solid outlier would actually outnumber his own evidence... see...

But now, this thread is surely going to be fantastic. I've always expected Kyosanim and 45 to fight, but to no avail. Even when posting in the same thread, they'd never tackle any of each other's post.

But with Ricery and Kyosanim arguing, this is going to be stellar.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:41 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh, you're having a bite at Ricery's list as well. He doesn't give a shit. He posts everytime, in every single ST thread. It's been going on for weeks.
His list is largely absurd and best ignored. Too many people have already provided too many good rebuttals, or greater degrees of perspective. Ricery doesn't even understand the meaning of outlier, thinking that everything that disputes his list is an outlier, even if the solid outlier would actually outnumber his own evidence... see...

But now, this thread is surely going to be fantastic. I've always expected Kyosanim and 45 to fight, but to no avail. Even when posting in the same thread, they'd never tackle any of each other's post.

But with Ricery and Kyosanim arguing, this is going to be stellar.
I am actually considering posting on there again, but il see how i feel in a few days.

Now i have jack shit science knowledga but would the fact that the E-D could apply around 2km per second of delta-v on that freaking massive asteroid moon in Deja-Q show that with the scimitar moving forwards as well the force applied whetre the ships impacted was rather large?.

Like i said i do not know much about this but the episode says that at full impulse without the mass lightening the impulse engines only had 47% of the power required to achieve 4kms delta-v, so roughly 2kms they could manage.

Now that seems like a hell of a lot of push considering the size of the asteroid moon so would'nt it mean that the force of the two ships pushing towards each other would be immense?.

Or have i just confirmed my uneducated status?.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:59 pm

Sigh. Ricery is pretty obvious. He's either some kind of anti-Trek troll or a sock puppet of some kind. His/her/it's tactics are simple; just spout off a list of outlier examples, claim they are the norm, and hope that no one seriously disputes them. If they do dispute them, throw up a Wall of Ignorance and repeat each one like a mantra until the other side gives up, because Ricery knows full well that the mods are not likely to do anything to him/her/it.

Kor, you ought to go through some of the threads the one "Estimating the Size of The Bre'el Moon" where you can get all the information you need to counter Ricery's bullshit with real calculations and information from the canon episodes. Roondar calculated 1 GT a second energy output from the E-D impulse engines to nudge the moon some 92 m/second in velocity. So before you go back, if you do, then go well prepared.
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:29 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Sigh. Ricery is pretty obvious. He's either some kind of anti-Trek troll or a sock puppet of some kind. His/her/it's tactics are simple; just spout off a list of outlier examples, claim they are the norm, and hope that no one seriously disputes them. If they do dispute them, throw up a Wall of Ignorance and repeat each one like a mantra until the other side gives up, because Ricery knows full well that the mods are not likely to do anything to him/her/it.

Kor, you ought to go through some of the threads the one "Estimating the Size of The Bre'el Moon" where you can get all the information you need to counter Ricery's bullshit with real calculations and information from the canon episodes. Roondar calculated 1 GT a second energy output from the E-D impulse engines to nudge the moon some 92 m/second in velocity. So before you go back, if you do, then go well prepared.
-Mike

Ok but is my point about the ships hitting and the momentum/force being a reasonable explanation why the crumbled, it seems to me that if i can push a small moon against its trajectory then i can exert enough force to crunch the end of my ship and other together?.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:33 pm

I took a look at a YouTube video of the "Timeless" crash, just click here. Voyager is doing at least 300-500 m/second there at initial impact. Just plugging in some numbers here; Voyager masses out at 700,000 metric tons, or 700,000,000 kilograms. Assuming Voyager is only going 100 m/s that would mean 3,500,000,000,000 J KE or 3.5 TJ. If 340 m/s velocity, then 40.46 TJ and so on. So does Ricery just love the number 50, or what? Maybe it's his/her/it's default number...
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:40 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:I took a look at a YouTube video of the "Timeless" crash, just click here. Voyager is doing at least 300-500 m/second there at initial impact. Just plugging in some numbers here; Voyager masses out at 700,000 metric tons, or 700,000,000 kilograms. Assuming Voyager is only going 100 m/s that would mean 3,500,000,000,000 J KE or 3.5 TJ. If 340 m/s velocity, then 40.46 TJ and so on. So does Ricery just love the number 50, or what? Maybe it's his/her/it's default number...
-Mike

Paris says the planet was 900 million km from them and literally seconds later they are entering the atmosphere sothey must have slowed a shit tonne while flying through the atmosphere.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:46 pm

We can see in the video that they've slowed down some before entering the atmosphere. It's either that or we're looking at the whole crash scene in slow motion. The plates that fall off interestingly enough don't crumple, but just fly off with no descernable deformation, and the structural beams beneath show little to no sign of any of bending or other deformation.
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:44 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:I took a look at a YouTube video of the "Timeless" crash, just click here. Voyager is doing at least 300-500 m/second there at initial impact. Just plugging in some numbers here; Voyager masses out at 700,000 metric tons, or 700,000,000 kilograms. Assuming Voyager is only going 100 m/s that would mean 3,500,000,000,000 J KE or 3.5 TJ. If 340 m/s velocity, then 40.46 TJ and so on. So does Ricery just love the number 50, or what? Maybe it's his/her/it's default number...
-Mike
Voyager is about 344 meters long, and when she brushes against that snowy tip, ship's aft passes it a second later.
At best you can claim 400 meters of speed, and that's before the impact.
The most considerable speed is the vertical one, since it's this one which changed completely from whatever it was to zero.
The ship was largely deflected and lost little forward speed. Besides, it's also mitigated by the fact that it was both snow and ice which the ship landed on. Hardly the most robust materials ever.
The impact is still impressive in that it instantly creates a reaction force that propels a 300-400 meters high geyser of powdered ice up.
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Paris says the planet was 900 million km from them and literally seconds later they are entering the atmosphere sothey must have slowed a shit tonne while flying through the atmosphere.
Or like in any series of movie, time passed off screen.
c is light speed. It's a bit less than 300,000,000 m/s.
900 million km is 900,000,000,000 m. At c, it'd take 3000 seconds to cover that distance.
And that's for someone standing outside of the ship.
So either they were flying close to c, assumedly with the help of their warp drive, and then you'd say that due to time dilation, it makes sense to have thousands of real seconds pass while we see less on screen, or time was removed during a cut.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:32 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Voyager is about 344 meters long, and when she brushes against that snowy tip, ship's aft passes it a second later.
At best you can claim 400 meters of speed, and that's before the impact.
The most considerable speed is the vertical one, since it's this one which changed completely from whatever it was to zero.
The ship was largely deflected and lost little forward speed. Besides, it's also mitigated by the fact that it was both snow and ice which the ship landed on. Hardly the most robust materials ever.
The impact is still impressive in that it instantly creates a reaction force that propels a 300-400 meters high geyser of powdered ice up.
344 meters a second is still a little over 40.46 TJ of KE. The fact that the ship sheers through the ice peek with no damage is still very impressive.

As for ice being not so bad. Just take a look again at the damage suffered by the RMS Titanic by just grazing an iceberg. Before that take a look at the damage done to SS Arizona's bow in a head-on collision at just a tiny fraction of the speed (a mere 7.7 meters a second at best) of Voyager's (344 m/s).
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:05 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Voyager is about 344 meters long, and when she brushes against that snowy tip, ship's aft passes it a second later.
At best you can claim 400 meters of speed, and that's before the impact.
The most considerable speed is the vertical one, since it's this one which changed completely from whatever it was to zero.
The ship was largely deflected and lost little forward speed. Besides, it's also mitigated by the fact that it was both snow and ice which the ship landed on. Hardly the most robust materials ever.
The impact is still impressive in that it instantly creates a reaction force that propels a 300-400 meters high geyser of powdered ice up.
344 meters a second is still a little over 40.46 TJ of KE.
I believe the vertical speed wasn't that high. With half that speed (that would be about a vertical speed of half the length per second), you get a figure that's four times lower.
Figures on Internet show that the ship is only 62~66 meters high. Going for 64 m/s, the KE figure is 28.89 times lower (1.4 TJ).
Finally, this energy is applied over a long ventral surface.
The final mitigating factor is that the ship actually landed on the slope of a small valley. Yes. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't land on flat terrain.
If you watch closely, right after the camera cuts from the brushed peak sequence to the near ground backwards travelling sequence, the camera flies above a depression for about half a second, then passes the ridge of a small snowy hill, and then it's mostly flat terrain beyond that point. The ship landed in that valley.
We also see that after the crash, as the dish section breaks through said hill ridge, what is blasted is not large chunks of ice, but vast puffs of snow.
So the change of vertical speed was attenuated, and the ship plowing through the hill barely slowed it down as it was largely pulverized, so that's very little forward KE to look for here.
Heck, even the portside nacelle easily passes through the tip of that hill. However, when it hits the snow covered rock, after several Voyager lenghts of gliding, it's strongly damaged (and at that point, the ship is not moving forward at a speed of 344 m/s anymore, obviously).

It's still impressive though, but nowhere what you think it is.
The fact that the ship sheers through the ice peek with no damage is still very impressive.
It barely touched it, just brushing some snow off its peak.
As for ice being not so bad. Just take a look again at the damage suffered by the RMS Titanic by just grazing an iceberg. Before that take a look at the damage done to SS Arizona's bow in a head-on collision at just a tiny fraction of the speed (a mere 7.7 meters a second at best) of Voyager's (344 m/s).
-Mike
It was not an armoured spaceship. :)
In comparison, it's essentially a story of a tin can defeated by a giant ice cube... at enough velocity.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Trinoya » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:11 am

As a note for the record, Ricery sent me his list via personal message... I informed him if he wanted to debate it he can do so out in the open over here but he has declined to reply so far... I presume he wanted me to waste my time in PM or, worse yet, bog down threads with repeat answers in the hopes they were closed for flaming...

Anyway... It had a few additions and I have doubts that he has actually watched some of the episodes in question (especially when he calls timeless "timecrash").
Q) Who Watches The Watchers: A Phaser bank can be run by a 4.2 Gigawatt power source.

R) Tears of the Prophets: An entire fleet of ships are incapable of destroying an asteroid even with every weapon they have. Even if the asteroid was 10 kilometers in diameter, then 20 of those 50 megaton photon torpedoes should have shattered it, yet a fleet was incapable of doing it, even though they could have had hundreds to thousands of torpedoes, not including phasers.


I thought the last one was interesting since he completely forgot the moon (which he incorrectly called an asteroid) blew up. I also believe he later denied ever making the claim in a later thread at space battles...

I can't blame him, he forgot the installation was shielded to hell and back, and powerful enough to power via transmission all the defense satellites in orbit of the planet... Pretty buff piece of equipment.

Note: These are the same weapons that, if I remember correctly, one shot most Mirandas... so they are impressive themselves.

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Re: Star Trek Vs Halo...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:43 pm

Seriously, the first time I read his list - and his claim about "Tears of the Prophets" was already there - it looked like he never watched the damn episode.
Hell, you don't even need to watch all of it, only the last minutes of the battle. It's ridiculously pathetic.
How can he forget that the station was shielded, and that only friendly weapons with the same shield permission frequency could pass through?
OK, that's not said but there's no reason why those weapons would work where those of the UFP didn't, when they're not less powerful.

He won't come here because he knows this place counts knowledgeable Trekkies who will wtfpwn his silly arguments in an eye's blink.

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