More Space Battles

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Mike DiCenso
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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:23 pm

You guys are also forgetting TNG's "The Cost of Living" where Dr. Timicin's modified torpedoes are fired from a sublight E-D and travel to the heart of star in a matter of seconds.

Although the Romulan plasma torpedoes form TOS' "Balance of Terror" are different weapons, they did demonstrate the ability to chase the E-1701 from sublight or modest warp speeds up to high emergency full reverse warp and overtake her.
-Mike

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:03 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:You guys are also forgetting TNG's "The Cost of Living" where Dr. Timicin's modified torpedoes are fired from a sublight E-D and travel to the heart of star in a matter of seconds.

Although the Romulan plasma torpedoes form TOS' "Balance of Terror" are different weapons, they did demonstrate the ability to chase the E-1701 from sublight or modest warp speeds up to high emergency full reverse warp and overtake her.
-Mike
True, but all these weapons were "special" weapons, and none are standard Federation weapons.
When have we seen a "standard" Photorp or Quantorp fired from sublight accelerate to FTL speeds?

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:07 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Praeothmin wrote: This then makes me wonder why we've never seen an actual Photorp, not the casing, go to Warp when fired, since it would have been practical to do so many times...
Dunno, although im sure there were times when they were chasing a ship at warp and fired torps while both ships were accelerating, this would mean the photon torpedo would have to accelerate as well i would have thought.
But these torpedoes were fired while ship firing them was at warp, and we all know if you jump forward out of a car going at 100km/h, then you will go at 100km/h plus the speed your jump gave you, so firing a Photorp while at Warp automatically would impart these speeds to the Torpedo, no?

And the non-canon TNG TM says that Torpedoes have a "Warp Sustainer" engine allowing them to remain at Warp when fired at Warp...

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Trinoya » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:37 pm

I may be wrong on this, but I seem to remember the torpedoes fired from the klingon ships in TMP going very far very shortly... their ships didn't seem to be at warp either.

Just piping in... back to lurking now. ^_^

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:51 pm

Trinoya wrote:I may be wrong on this, but I seem to remember the torpedoes fired from the klingon ships in TMP going very far very shortly... their ships didn't seem to be at warp either.

Just piping in... back to lurking now. ^_^
Well, going up to 300 000Km in less then 5 seconds is 60 000km/s, or 1/5 the speed of light, so still sublight... But fast for the naked eye... :)

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:06 pm

Praeothmin wrote:True, but all these weapons were "special" weapons, and none are standard Federation weapons.
When have we seen a "standard" Photorp or Quantorp fired from sublight accelerate to FTL speeds?
Sorry, but in the case of Timicin's moded torpedoes (My mistake it was "Half a Life", not "Cost of Living"), how does having them go from sublight to FTL help them repair the damage to star? Why would it need to be modified that way? Also there is the photon torpedo testing in in TNG's "Genesis", which an errant torpedo within seconds is out of range of the E-D's phasers and deep within a dense asteroid field. It took Picard and Data seceral days in a shuttlecraft to get to it and return. And remember Worf lists off all the mods he mad to the torpedoes; enhanced targetting and yield. He does not mention anything about acceleration capabilties so we must assume that torpedoes can manage high sublight to low warp from a relativel standing start.

And speaking of listing torpedo modifications, here are the modifications Timicin is going to make to the E-D's torpedoes:


TIMICIN: Of course, the basic theories of helium fusion enhancement have been discussed for over a century, but there's been no practical method of application until now.

DATA: The modifications that you have made to the torpedo's guidance systems are remarkable, Doctor.

TIMICIN: Well, we'll see. They still have to be proved. But now at least it's possible. I'd never dared hope for such a perfect match with our own sun.

PICARD: My only regret is that it took us three years to find a suitable sun after you had first contacted us.

TIMICIN: We're not used to dealing with other worlds. We're not used to asking for anything from others. Your offer of help has given us a possible means of survival. It has taken forty years of my life to develop the programming that will control your photon torpedoes. It has been my life. Thank you for this opportunity. My only wish has been to find a way to revive our sun before I die.



So you see, no mods to the propulsion, just to guidence. Also another thing to consider; in episodes and movies like "Flashback" and ST:TMP, the torpedoes while being fired at warp do very signficant accelerations in order to reach their targets after being launched. In the case of the Excelsior in VOY's "Flashback", it was hit from behind by torpedoes while travelling at high warp.
-Mike

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:25 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Trinoya wrote:I may be wrong on this, but I seem to remember the torpedoes fired from the klingon ships in TMP going very far very shortly... their ships didn't seem to be at warp either.

Just piping in... back to lurking now. ^_^
Well, going up to 300 000Km in less then 5 seconds is 60 000km/s, or 1/5 the speed of light, so still sublight... But fast for the naked eye... :)
Where did you pull the 300,000 km number from? The V'Ger cloud was no less than 2 AUs in diameter (as per the Director's Cut edition, the original version states the cloud is over 82 AUs wide) and where the Klingon ships fired from is at least half an AU (74,818,500 km) away from the cloud boundry, which the torpedoes reached in about 20 seconds and are then snuffed out by V'Ger. That's 3,740,925 km per second, or 12.5 times the speed of light. Of course it's all academic as the battle had to have taken place at warp given the 3 days to Earth estimate and that in TOS, the warp speed appearence of things did not have the streaking stars of later shows and movies.
-Mike

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:17 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
But these torpedoes were fired while ship firing them was at warp, and we all know if you jump forward out of a car going at 100km/h, then you will go at 100km/h plus the speed your jump gave you, so firing a Photorp while at Warp automatically would impart these speeds to the Torpedo, no?
Yes.

But if both ships are accelerating when it is fired the torpedo would need to accelerate after its fired.

Just say that in your example you were trying to jump to a car ahead of you, now if you you can jump at 5mph and the cars are accelerating from 50mph to 100mph when and during your jump your speed will be 55mph but after you have jumped the car is no longer accelerating you so instead of landing on the target car you miss as it has accelerated to 60, 70, 80 90 and 100mph while you were in mid air.

In fact if you do not continue to accelerate under your own power the car you jumped from would pass you shortly after your jump.
Praeothmin wrote:And the non-canon TNG TM says that Torpedoes have a "Warp Sustainer" engine allowing them to remain at Warp when fired at Warp...
Maybe that means it can accelerate a torp that is at warp (if a torp is at warp one maybe it can accelerate it to a higher warp) but cannot make it go from impulse to warp.

I am just guessing though.

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:38 am

The torpedoes in Star Trek act like a real-life torpedoes or air-to-air missile would when launched from a submarine or aircraft. They can be fired and overtake an enemy ship or plane under their own power.
-Mike

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:40 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:True, but all these weapons were "special" weapons, and none are standard Federation weapons.
When have we seen a "standard" Photorp or Quantorp fired from sublight accelerate to FTL speeds?
Sorry, but in the case of Timicin's moded torpedoes (My mistake it was "Half a Life", not "Cost of Living"), how does having them go from sublight to FTL help them repair the damage to star? Why would it need to be modified that way? Also there is the photon torpedo testing in in TNG's "Genesis", which an errant torpedo within seconds is out of range of the E-D's phasers and deep within a dense asteroid field. It took Picard and Data seceral days in a shuttlecraft to get to it and return. And remember Worf lists off all the mods he mad to the torpedoes; enhanced targetting and yield. He does not mention anything about acceleration capabilties so we must assume that torpedoes can manage high sublight to low warp from a relativel standing start.


So you see, no mods to the propulsion, just to guidence. Also another thing to consider; in episodes and movies like "Flashback" and ST:TMP, the torpedoes while being fired at warp do very signficant accelerations in order to reach their targets after being launched. In the case of the Excelsior in VOY's "Flashback", it was hit from behind by torpedoes while travelling at high warp.
-Mike

How far away from the sun is the E-D, and how many seconds did it take for the Torpedo to reach it?

And again, Torpedoes at Warp, fired by a ship also going at Warp, will have an speed of the original ship plus the speed the launcher imparts to it...

I'm not against Torpedoes going at Warp from STL speeds, but we need to make sure these are the standard Federation weapons and that no "special" circumstances can be used to excuse those...

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:59 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Where did you pull the 300,000 km number from? The V'Ger cloud was no less than 2 AUs in diameter (as per the Director's Cut edition, the original version states the cloud is over 82 AUs wide) and where the Klingon ships fired from is at least half an AU (74,818,500 km) away from the cloud boundry, which the torpedoes reached in about 20 seconds and are then snuffed out by V'Ger. That's 3,740,925 km per second, or 12.5 times the speed of light. Of course it's all academic as the battle had to have taken place at warp given the 3 days to Earth estimate and that in TOS, the warp speed appearence of things did not have the streaking stars of later shows and movies.
-Mike
Its a number I chose randomly, I didn't measure the distance, I was simply reviewing a possible speed.
But if the ships weren't at Warp, then yes, it is impressive, but if they were, then again, we're facing a case where the ships "propelling" the "Toropodes" (cookie for the obscure reference) is already at Warp, so of course the propelled missile will also be at Warp...

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:03 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:
But these torpedoes were fired while ship firing them was at warp, and we all know if you jump forward out of a car going at 100km/h, then you will go at 100km/h plus the speed your jump gave you, so firing a Photorp while at Warp automatically would impart these speeds to the Torpedo, no?
Yes.

But if both ships are accelerating when it is fired the torpedo would need to accelerate after its fired.

Just say that in your example you were trying to jump to a car ahead of you, now if you you can jump at 5mph and the cars are accelerating from 50mph to 100mph when and during your jump your speed will be 55mph but after you have jumped the car is no longer accelerating you so instead of landing on the target car you miss as it has accelerated to 60, 70, 80 90 and 100mph while you were in mid air.

In fact if you do not continue to accelerate under your own power the car you jumped from would pass you shortly after your jump.
Ah, but I don't have en engine sticking out of my butt to propel me, while the Torpedo does.
I'm not saying Torpedoes don't have engines and cannot accelerate, I'm just saying, up to now, we have not seen many Torpedoes go from STL to FTL on their own...
Praeothmin wrote:And the non-canon TNG TM says that Torpedoes have a "Warp Sustainer" engine allowing them to remain at Warp when fired at Warp...
Maybe that means it can accelerate a torp that is at warp (if a torp is at warp one maybe it can accelerate it to a higher warp) but cannot make it go from impulse to warp.

I am just guessing though.
It's what I tend to think also...

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:42 am

Praeothmin wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Where did you pull the 300,000 km number from? The V'Ger cloud was no less than 2 AUs in diameter (as per the Director's Cut edition, the original version states the cloud is over 82 AUs wide) and where the Klingon ships fired from is at least half an AU (74,818,500 km) away from the cloud boundry, which the torpedoes reached in about 20 seconds and are then snuffed out by V'Ger. That's 3,740,925 km per second, or 12.5 times the speed of light. Of course it's all academic as the battle had to have taken place at warp given the 3 days to Earth estimate and that in TOS, the warp speed appearence of things did not have the streaking stars of later shows and movies.
-Mike
Its a number I chose randomly, I didn't measure the distance, I was simply reviewing a possible speed.
But if the ships weren't at Warp, then yes, it is impressive, but if they were, then again, we're facing a case where the ships "propelling" the "Toropodes" (cookie for the obscure reference) is already at Warp, so of course the propelled missile will also be at Warp...
I assume you were refering to Jason there. I'm personally not really interesting that person, assuming he's not some kind of an A.I. bot experiment to promote posting at ASVS. As for the the torpedo issue. It's fairly open and shut: We know from at least "Half a Life" that they can apparently accelerate to FTL from sublight, and they can accelerate from moderate warp speeds to much higher ones to overtake an enemy vessel.
-Mike

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:46 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote: It's fairly open and shut: We know from at least "Half a Life" that they can apparently accelerate to FTL from sublight, and they can accelerate from moderate warp speeds to much higher ones to overtake an enemy vessel.
-Mike
I still have issues with this, simply because we haven't seen it in combat, the one place where this ability would have insured insta-hits on ships fired at, even moving ships.
And also because we've always seen Torpedoes move slightly faster then ships, but always visible, and never with the Warp streaks...
Why is that if Torpedoes can indeed accelerate to such speeds?
How can torpedoes miss ships in STL (as in ST V, as in certain DS9 battles) if after they're fired they can accelerate to FTL?

Oh, and you get your cookie... :)

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:50 pm

Praeothmin wrote:I still have issues with this, simply because we haven't seen it in combat, the one place where this ability would have insured insta-hits on ships fired at, even moving ships.
So you're ignoring VOY's "Flashback" now? We saw that happen when Klingon photon torpedoes clearly caught up with the Excelsior, which was travelling at high warp.

The TrekCore screencaps here:

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 24&page=12

Sure looks like the Excelsior is at warp and those torpedoes are overtaking and hitting her.
Praeothmin wrote:Why is that if Torpedoes can indeed accelerate to such speeds?
How can torpedoes miss ships in STL (as in ST V, as in certain DS9 battles) if after they're fired they can accelerate to FTL?
Probably because it is an energy intensive thing, and the torpedoes lose quite a bit of their punch when they do so. Thus having torepdoes launched at STL versus STL ships is more economical as is warp-to-warp combat (still requires energy to overtake a target, but not as bad as having the torpedoes chase it from STL to warp). Also we don't know how long it takes for a torpedo do this. Also in what DS9 battles did these alleged misses occur?
-Mike

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