More Space Battles

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Mike DiCenso
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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:27 pm

On the issue with the Prometheus torpedo:

EMH2: It's not working. It says here the phasers are offline.

EMH: Then fire a torpedo!

EMH: You hit the wrong ship.

EMH2: It wasn't my fault!

EMH: Whose fault was it, the torpedo's? You're supposed to tell it what to do! Navigational control is offline.


As per the visuals and dialog the torpedoes have to be told what to target, otherwise just firing the torpedo can have unintended consequences. But in that instance we clearly see the torpedo in question fly around the 1.3 x 1 km warbird to hit a Defiant class ship that it is flying around up and behind it.
-Mike

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Praeothmin
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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:24 pm

The "Way of the Warrior" scene shows the Torpedoes that miss keep going in a straight line after they miss, and go in a direction where wee see no ships.
The offscreen hits were more then probably ones from the other side of the station, since I doubt we saw all the "even" launchers fire in that scene...

Yes, Torpedoes can maneuver, but they don't seem to be able to maneuver all the time, and it's certainly not a 100% hit ratio for Torpedoes.
And we still haven't seen the FTL torpedoes in the majority of the fights we see...

So they're not always in use, or there's special circumstance where Torpedoes cannot maneuver and cannot go to FTL when launched in STL combat...

Mike DiCenso
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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:16 pm

It's funny that you mention WoTW, because the torpedo POV shots show that they do indeed maneuver. Also here is the "Message in a Bottle" battle at 5:01 is when the EMH Mark II shoots off a torpedo that flies around a D'Deridex to nail the poor Defiant class on the opposite side.

So this is another exampe of torpedoes explicitlybeing capable of maneuvering. Also another example from DS9's "Valiant":



WATTERS: Stand at ease. It's been a long eight months. A lot of hard work, a lot of sacrifice. Now we've accomplished our mission. We found the battleship and obtained a complete scan without being detected, and we're free to go home. But that ship out there is a direct threat to every Federation outpost and colony within fifty light years. That ship must be destroyed. It can be destroyed. Commander?

FARRIS: We've found a flaw in the design of their antimatter storage system. The primary support braces are made of viterium.

WATTERS: It's a very strong, very resilient metal alloy which just happens to become extremely unstable when exposed to delta radiation.

FARRIS: A single torpedo rigged with a radiogenic warhead could reduce those braces to the consistency of wet pasta.

WATTERS: And as a result, the entire antimatter storage system would tear itself apart. Commander Nog, you don't seem convinced.

NOG: Well, sir, in order to rig a torpedo to yield a delta radiation burst I'll have to remove most of the guidance systems. We'll have to target it manually.



This is interesting dialog since now we know that a torpedo has guidence systems that can be removed to make more room inside them for bigger warheads or specialized ones. This goes a long way towards maybe telling us why torpedoes don't maneuver all the time as they may be launched just chock full of matter and antimatter to increase range and punch on a target. Conversely, even a torpedo with guidance that can avoid maneuvering will probably fly in the straightest line possible to the target in order to conserve precious on-board reactants.


Same thing with STL to FTL flight: it's not practical from an energy consumption standpoint. So when a torpedo is sent at FTL it is done in warp speed combat.
-Mike

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Cocytus » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:20 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:The only thing that helps your supposition is the scene with the Neg'Var manueuvering about to fire with the torpedoes and phasers flying past. Everything else goes more for my supposition, especially when the dialog and it's proper context is observed. They order weapons fired in a particular sequence, we see only some of the hits because Kira's dialog clearly indicates that other hits are occuring. There is no getting around that. Therefore in the following scenes of hits and what you claim are misses, we can assume that like the prior similar scenes, there are additional hits occuring off-screen.
Are you prepared to defend every torpedo and phaser beam fired in this battle as a hit. Not even a kill, just a hit?

And in discussing proper context, it is also necessary to ask what happens to torpedoes that miss their targets. The answer is that they do indeed continue on like "unguided cannonballs." We have quite a few examples of this. We see it in First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis. Torpedoes fired miss their targets, and they don't enter into any kind of holding pattern searching for new ones. They just keep going. Now granted, Data set the FC torpedoes to miss, so you can disregard those, and they couldn't see the Scimitar anyway, but those Nemesis torpedoes still just kept going. The torpedo that misses a Son'A battleship in the Briar Patch just keeps going. It doesn't loop around to hit it.

A few other examples I can think of include TNG "Genesis," where the torpedo that misses its asteroid just keeps going, and Picard and Data have to retrieve it with a shuttle. Granted, Worf made alterations to its targeting systems, but its behavior post-missing is consistent with the other examples. In "Hope and Fear," Voyager fires four torpedoes at the Dauntless, only one of which hits, and that single hit was sufficient to drop the vessel's shields. If only one was required, why fire four, especially if the torpedoes could be counted on to maneuver back around to hit the Dauntless?

Now, when we see torpedoes pulling drastic maneuvers of the kind necessary to hit ships on the other side of the station, they do so fairly rapidly after leaving the tubes.
ST6 and TNG "In Theory" come to mind. But these WOTW torpedoes just keep going like so many others. The "In Theory" torpedo makes an almost 90-degree, multikilometer turn in about two seconds. These WOTW torpedoes go straight for several seconds without giving even the slightest indication of making major maneuvers.

Now, I'm going to make a few statements based on directly observable evidence in order to establish a rubric we can use to calculate exactly how many torpedoes are fired relative to the number of ships we see destroyed. Going through the episode, the most ships I've been able to count in any scene showing the fleet is 51 in this scene:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_467.jpg

Deep Space Nine has tripartite symmetry among its three sectors and hemispherical symmetry across its equator, with the exception of the fusion reactor being in place of OPS underneath. This means that every launcher we see has two more duplicates above and three below.

Each small fin has two: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_592.jpg There are six fins for a total of twelve.

Each docking arm has one above the main port, and if the symmetry holds, another below it: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_588.jpg That makes six more.

The Habitat Ring has three of these: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_590.jpg If the symmetry holds, it has six.

That makes 24, all told. Now, how many torpedoes were fired total, and by each one? The initial sequence consists of 23 torpedoes, fired from one fin and one of the docking arm launchers. Tripling that to account for all the launchers that could be firing in this sequence gives us 69. When Sisko orders "fire at will" we see another 20 launched, which gives us 60 altogether. The final sequence, firing at the Negh'var, shows 11 torpedoes launched, for a total of 33 all around. Now note: This is only accounting for the top launchers, and already we have 162 fired. Double that to account for bottom launchers, we get 324. That does NOT take into account the even-numbered launchers, which we didn't see fire. Assuming its about the same, that would give us another 60 or so torpedoes for the top, doubling to 120 for the bottom, for a total of around 444 torpedoes.

Now note this, because it is critical. We CANNOT multiply the number of Klingon ships in the same way because we have a relatively fixed figure for the fleet and for the number we see destroyed. The most I've been able to count is 51, which fits well with Kira's "several dozen Klingon ships including the Negh'Var" line, right after the Defiant arrives from rescuing the Detapa Council. The fleet is around 4 dozen ships. Now, throughout the entire battle, we see 9 ships destroyed. Allowing for Kira's "eight Klingon ships destroyed line," since we see four destroyed in the sequence (I'm counting two BoPs and two explosions from which ships cannot be seen limping away) that allows us to double the number of confirmed kills to 18. Now, allowing for Kira's "several more heavily damaged line," let's say five or six, and doubling just for the hell of it, that gives us another 10 or 12 out-of-action, for a total of 28-30, a little over half the fleet, which fits well with Martok's "we can still win" line, given that the station had already suffered, quoting Sisko's log at the end, "heavy damage."

Now, even the most conservative estimate of fired torpedoes, those we can see being launched, is 54. 54 to destroy or damage a liberal estimate of 30 ships is pretty standard, and supports your position. But now subtract 8 ships that were destroyed by the phaser salvos, and remember that two BoPs were popped by single torpedoes in the initial salvo, we have 52 torpedoes to destroy or damage 20 ships, assuming they are all hits. That's 2.7 torpedoes per ship. Still pretty standard. But, logically inferring a greater number of torpedoes fired to account for the station's layout gives us well into the hundreds of torpedoes fired to kill STILL JUST 20 SHIPS, since we have logical limiters (Kira's line, visible evidence) on the number of Klingon ships. 162 gives us about 8 per ship. 324 gives 16. 444 gives 22 per ship, again assuming they are all hits.
Mike DiCenso wrote:So this is another exampe of torpedoes explicitlybeing capable of maneuvering. Also another example from DS9's "Valiant":
That torpedoes have the ability to maneuver has never been in question. What is in question is whether the torpedoes fired in WOTW behave like so many others that miss their targets and just keep going. I see nothing to indicate they don't.
Mike DiCenso wrote:This is interesting dialog since now we know that a torpedo has guidence systems that can be removed to make more room inside them for bigger warheads or specialized ones. This goes a long way towards maybe telling us why torpedoes don't maneuver all the time as they may be launched just chock full of matter and antimatter to increase range and punch on a target. Conversely, even a torpedo with guidance that can avoid maneuvering will probably fly in the straightest line possible to the target in order to conserve precious on-board reactants.
All of this makes sense, and also helps to support my supposition that Sisko could afford to miss. The fact that two undamaged BoPs in the initial phases of the battle, before any shots had been fired, are destroyed by single torpedoes suggests that punch, not targeting, was more important, and even the most liberal estimate of torpedoes I could logically divine, 444, doesn't come anywhere near 5000. Sisko could afford to miss.
Last edited by Cocytus on Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:36 pm

Most torpedoes self destruct after a certain distance and also can be manually self destructed even in our era, im sure the torpedo worf fired was supposed to be self destructed as well but it did not work although i cannot remember the exact details of the episode.

As far as the examples of missing you refer to most seem to be being fired at ships that are manouvering or travelling fast so a torp would need to decelerate turn around and then accelerate to stand a chance of catching a ship that can likely travel at close to or even faster than the torp itself.

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Cocytus » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:09 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Also watch the later "Call to Arms" battle here, where we see very clear targetting of Dominion ships with more obvious hits thanks to the extensive use of CGI. The only time anyone misses blatently is when the Defiant and Rotarran flee the station and cloak out. Also note that in both battles it takes multiple hits to kill even small ships. In that battle we have a clear statement on total Dominion-Cardassian losses; "Over fifty ships lost". If we apply that to the earlier WoTW battle, then there were quite a few Klingon losses we did not see.
-Mike
Done. I count a few outright misses. First, the torpedo fired away from the camera by the rotary turret at 2:22 doesn't seem to hit anything. It seems to miss a Jem'Hadar attack ship. Then, from 2:30 to 2:34 one of the fin launchers fires two torpedoes, one of which just misses the Jem'Hadar battlecruiser and the other of which strikes its port nacelle. Then, at 3:14, right after Dukat orders another pass, a torpedo barely misses the battlecruiser to the aft. Then, at 4:40, after Dukat orders fire concentrated on the outer docking ring, a torpedo just barely misses one of the smaller Cardassian ships. Then, at 4:43, a clear miss right over the bow of the Jem'Hadar attack ship before additional torpedoes destroy it.

That's five. The station seems to rely much more on phasers in this episode, but here I agree that accuracy is far better that WOTW. The station is much less profligate in its use of torpedoes, and achieves much more impact on the enemy fleet, with "over 50 ships lost," as you said. It seems they worked out quite a few bugs in the year between WOTW and CTA.

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:55 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: As far as the examples of missing you refer to most seem to be being fired at ships that are manouvering or travelling fast so a torp would need to decelerate turn around and then accelerate to stand a chance of catching a ship that can likely travel at close to or even faster than the torp itself.
The ships in WotW were neither maneuvering much or going very fast.
And if they were, this brings back my point that Photorps used in combat rarely, if ever, go from STL to FTL, even when it would be needed.
An FTL torpedoe wouldn't care about an STL maneuvering ship...

So while we know they can do things like accelerate and maneuver, I think Mike and Cocytus's hypothesies are valid in that torpedoes need to sacrifice something to gain another.
Sacrifice speed and targeting for more punch (more reactant for explosives instead of fuel for maneuvering and acceleration), while torpedoes needing a big punch, such as TidC, they fill it with reactants and no fuel (or very little) and fire it in straight lines to the targets...

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Re: More Space Battles

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:13 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: As far as the examples of missing you refer to most seem to be being fired at ships that are manouvering or travelling fast so a torp would need to decelerate turn around and then accelerate to stand a chance of catching a ship that can likely travel at close to or even faster than the torp itself.
The ships in WotW were neither maneuvering much or going very fast.
I know i was refering to the examples in First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis.


And i agree somewhat with the rest.

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