More Space Battles

[Cocytus]

Also in what DS9 battles did these alleged misses occur?

All over the place in "Way of the Warrior"

However, aside from "Half a Life," the other instance of close-to-FTL speeds for STL-launched torpedoes is everyone's old favorite "The Wounded."

DATA
The warship is three hundred
thousand kilometers from the
Phoenix. It is opening fire.
The Phoenix has taken a direct
hit.

DATA
The Phoenix is beginning evasive
maneuvers.
(beat)
It has positioned itself outside
the weapons range of the opposing
ship.
(beat)
The Phoenix has powered up with
both phasers and photon
torpedoes.
(beat)
The Phoenix is firing photon
torpedoes.

The warship had a weapons range of 300,000 km. The Phoenix positioned itself outside that range, meaning that it was over 300,000 km away. The torpedoes it fired covered the distance in about a second. 300,000km/sec = c. Anyway, if I were to venture a reason for this, to build on Mike's supposition, Maxwell was willing to expend the additional energy for increased torpedo acceleration since the Cardassian warship was stated to have the ability to dismantle its shields, as per Worf.

Sisko had 5,000 torpedoes at his disposal, and the Klingon fleet didn't look terribly large, certainly not the size of the later Dominion War fleets. Simply put, Sisko could afford to miss. Now I'm sure you could come up with 50 different places in which the sorts of torpedo accelerations seen in "The Wounded" would have come in handy, as can I. But we have at least two canonical examples of STL-FTL torpedo acceleration.

[Mike DiCenso]

All over the place in "Way of the Warrior"

Really? I see lots of torpedoes maneuvering about in the POV shots before hitting their targets and in the regular shots passing by several ships to hit others behind them, but no real misses as such.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

I still have issues with this, simply because we haven't seen it in combat, the one place where this ability would have insured insta-hits on ships fired at, even moving ships.

So you're ignoring VOY's "Flashback" now? We saw that happen when Klingon photon torpedoes clearly caught up with the Excelsior, which was travelling at high warp.

The TrekCore screencaps here:

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 24&page=12

Sure looks like the Excelsior is at warp and those torpedoes are overtaking and hitting her.
-Mike

Actually, I never saw "Flashback", even though it's the one episode in all of Voyager I wanted to see.
Was the Klingon cruiser at Warp?

[Praeothmin]

But we have at least two canonical examples of STL-FTL torpedo acceleration.

But two examples against the many hundred others not behaving like that makes a poor average.
Why was it not used in every other engagement?
that's one of my biggest frustration with ST, the damn writers creating something, giving a ship or a weapon a capability, and then pissing all over it by completely ingnoring it later on...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

But we have at least two canonical examples of STL-FTL torpedo acceleration.

But two examples against the many hundred others not behaving like that makes a poor average.
Why was it not used in every other engagement?
that's one of my biggest frustration with ST, the damn writers creating something, giving a ship or a weapon a capability, and then pissing all over it by completely ingnoring it later on...

Considering the sheer quantity of episodes and movies even with a advisor of sorts things like this are going to slip through. The speed of weapons bolts or missiles can depend on the view we have in most cases as the bolt/torp is only crossing a bit of film but can be shown to be crossing a room or entire galaxy depending on the background shot.

[Cocytus]

Really? I see lots of torpedoes maneuvering about in the POV shots before hitting their targets and in the regular shots passing by several ships to hit others behind them, but no real misses as such.
-Mike

I assume you mean the two sequences which result in the destruction of a Vor'Cha and a K'Tinga. Right after that, when Gowron orders "Yod we Kaa" DS9 misses the Negh'Var cleanly with two torpedoes and a phaser beam. Earlier several torpedoes are fired at a group of BoPs, two of which are destroyed, the rest of which are missed.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, among others. Given the vast cloud of Klingon ships surrounding the station, and that you could multiple layers of them, why do you think that all the torpedo and phaser shots where ment for them? Watch the torpedo POV scenes of the battle again, and note carefully that there are ships many kilometers behind the ones being destroyed in a good number of those, like the big K'tinga death scene. So do you really think they're still missing, or are they hitting ships much further away?
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Yes, among others. Given the vast cloud of Klingon ships surrounding the station, and that you could multiple layers of them, why do you think that all the torpedo and phaser shots where ment for them? Watch the torpedo POV scenes of the battle again, and note carefully that there are ships many kilometers behind the ones being destroyed in a good number of those, like the big K'tinga death scene. So do you really think they're still missing, or are they hitting ships much further away?
-Mike

I do not remember seeing any near misses during the fight like you woukld expect, in fact the only shots we do not see immediately hit seem to be being fired into the middle of nowhere, this tells me they are being shot at ships we cannot see either past visual range like the ones heading to the defiant worf personally targeted or so they can turn and hit ships on the other side of the station.

We saw torps loop around and track like that during the fight in Voy:message in a bottle and in the movie The Undiscovered Country.

[Praeothmin]

Watch the scene here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlhzOE-vXlk

At 0:33 through 0:44, the first volleys are fired, and about half the torpedoes hit, the other half miss, while we do not see other ships in the background as a "second layer" of ships that could have been targetted by the Torpedoes.

We also see misses at around 1:40, again without any other layers farther down the Torpedoes' paths that could have been targets.

So there are misses, and the Torpedoes clearly don't go at FTL at any time in this battle...

[Cocytus]

Edit: I forgot, Sisko says "target the lead ships."

Yes, among others. Given the vast cloud of Klingon ships surrounding the station, and that you could multiple layers of them, why do you think that all the torpedo and phaser shots where ment for them? Watch the torpedo POV scenes of the battle again, and note carefully that there are ships many kilometers behind the ones being destroyed in a good number of those, like the big K'tinga death scene. So do you really think they're still missing, or are they hitting ships much further away?
-Mike

I have the episode right in front of me.

I'm sympathetic to your supposition since I'm pro-Trek, but I simply don't see the evidence for it. And simple threat prioritization demands that Sisko should first neutralize the ships that pose the most immediate threat to his station and his crew. Consider the first sequence we see. Multiple torpedoes fired at several BoPs, only two of which are destroyed. An incoming Vor'Cha seems more to blunder into a torpedo than to be actively targeted by it.

Screencap: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_603.jpg

13 torpedoes are fired in this sequence, three of which hit, two for kills.

Consider the first POV sequence, right after Sisko order "weapons stations fire at will." We see a phaser and one of the torpedoes strike two separate BoPs, and two torpedoes strike the Vor'Cha. Right as the sequence starts, four torpedoes veer off to the right. and we just barely see the starboard engine of a K'Tinga, but the ship isn't hit.

Screencap: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_641.jpg

Where are those four torpedoes going?

The second POV sequence has better accuracy, as all of those torpedoes hit, three on the K'Tinga and one on a BoP.

But then we see the Negh'Var and accompanying Vor'Chas, right before Gowron orders "Yod we Kaw." Three phaser beams pass, one behind the Negh'Var's formation, one strikes the left Vor'Cha, and one misses the lower-right Vor'Cha. Nine torpedoes are fired, six of which miss altogether. One hits the left Vor'Cha where the phaser beam struck it and destroys it, one hits the Negh'Var on the belly, and one hits the lower-right Vor'Cha on the prow. And I don't see any beams coming out of the nothing into which those other six torpedoes are flying.

Screencaps: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_656.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_657.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_658.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_659.jpg

Now consider the misses of the Negh'Var right after Gowron's "Yod we Kaw" order. Three torpedoes and a phaser beam miss every ship we can see. Here you have the Klingon flagship, the most powerful vessel they have, clearly assuming an attack posture. Why would Sisko waste precious seconds to fire at some far-off ship when the vessel that presents the most immediate threat is executing an attack maneuver right in front of them? I'm sorry, that just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Screencaps: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_667.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_668.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_669.jpg

The only sort of verbal confirmation we get of more ships being destroyed than we can see is when Sisko orders phasers fired. Four explosions are seen in the sequence, and Kira reports eight ships destroyed and several others heavily damaged. Around 25 phaser beams are fired in the sequence, so you'd have to interpret "several" pretty generously in relation to the number of confirmed kills to make all of those beams hits.

I do not remember seeing any near misses during the fight like you woukld expect, in fact the only shots we do not see immediately hit seem to be being fired into the middle of nowhere, this tells me they are being shot at ships we cannot see either past visual range like the ones heading to the defiant worf personally targeted or so they can turn and hit ships on the other side of the station.

We saw torps loop around and track like that during the fight in Voy:message in a bottle and in the movie The Undiscovered Country.

Again, why would Sisko go after distant ships instead of attacking the ones which are right there, and which clearly present the greater threat, seeing as how we don't see disruptor beams coming out of that middle of nowhere torpedoes are being fired into.

And as for the examples you cited, the Prometheus fires a single torpedo during the encounter with the Romulan warbirds, which makes a really lazy curve to one of the Defiants. It is in fact the only torpedo fired by ANY ship during that episode.

The torpedoes Worf targeted at ships heading after the Defiant is from "Call to Arms," not "Way of the Warrior." The Defiant was finishing off the minefield at the time. We can certainly start a discussion about accuracy for that episode, if you like. Accuracy for this one is pretty poor.

And Spock and McCoy had to modify the torpedo that killed Chang to be able to track his ship under cloak.

[Mike DiCenso]

Sorry, I got to call BS there on you. We see ships distantly in the background behind others in the battle, like one the "Big K'tinga" gets pulverized by several torpedoes:


http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_648.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... r2_649.jpg

This isn't just a one-layer battle. Also there's the dialog as well:


Kira: "Eight Klingon ships destroyed. Several heavily damaged."

We only see about three or four ships shot up or hit before she says that. Were did the others come from? Oh that's right, the torpedoes and phasers are hitting stuff we can't see off-screen.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

Were you replying to me or Praeothmin, since we posted pretty much on to of each other. I addressed Kira's statement and the phaser sequence it follows.

[Mike DiCenso]

Edit: I forgot, Sisko says "target the lead ships."

I have the episode right in front of me.

I'm sympathetic to your supposition since I'm pro-Trek, but I simply don't see the evidence for it. And simple threat prioritization demands that Sisko should first neutralize the ships that pose the most immediate threat to his station and his crew. Consider the first sequence we see. Multiple torpedoes fired at several BoPs, only two of which are destroyed. An incoming Vor'Cha seems more to blunder into a torpedo than to be actively targeted by it.

I have the episode as well, too. But the evidence is more on my side than yours, as you and Praeothmin are picking specific instances and ignoring the the whole.


SISKO: It's no illusion.

GOWRON [on viewscreen]: We shall see. Chech chew jaj-Vam jaj-kak!

WORF: He said, today is a good day to die.
(And so it begins. Boom. Bang)

SISKO: Target the lead ships. Ready even-numbered photon launchers.

WORF: Aye, sir.
(Weapons turrets come out of the station, the rings and the pylons.)

SISKO: Fire on my mark. Fire!

(KaBOOM)

SISKO: Ready odd numbered launchers. Fire!

KIRA: They're still closing.

SISKO: Ready phasers.

WORF: Standing by.

SISKO: Fire!

(KaBOOM, KaBOOM. Still the station shakes.)

KIRA: Eight Klingon ships destroyed. Several heavily damaged.

SISKO: Contact Gowron. Maybe we can put an end to this before it gets any farther.

DAX: They're not responding.

(Boom!)

WORF: They have given you your answer, Captain.

SISKO: Weapons stations, fire at will.
(And more ships go kaBOOM!)

Initally Sisko gives orders for "lead ships" to be targetted, but he does not specify which ones and we see a variety of hits, then comes the all-important "eight Klingon ships destroyed line", then Siko attempts to contact Gowron again, but only gets weapons fire in response, and he then orders for weapons to "fire at will". There is nothing to indicate that the Neg'Var is being specifically targeted as a priority, and indeed Siko would not want it destroyed since Gowron is on that ship along with probably a good number of the Klingon leadership who could put a stop to the conflict before it really gets going.

And Spock and McCoy had to modify the torpedo that killed Chang to be able to track his ship under cloak.

They modifed it to carry the gaseous annomaly equipment, not to maneuver or track (which would resulted in too much work for Spock and McCoy to do in the limited amount of time they had). And we have tons of statements in virtually all series, except TOS about photon torpedoes having guidence equipment.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Again, why would Sisko go after distant ships instead of attacking the ones which are right there, and which clearly present the greater threat, seeing as how we don't see disruptor beams coming out of that middle of nowhere torpedoes are being fired into.

And as for the examples you cited, the Prometheus fires a single torpedo during the encounter with the Romulan warbirds, which makes a really lazy curve to one of the Defiants. It is in fact the only torpedo fired by ANY ship during that episode.

And Spock and McCoy had to modify the torpedo that killed Chang to be able to track his ship under cloak.

1. The few secnds it took for the torp to be fired is not enough to make a claim that no fire ever came from the direction they were fired in.

2. The ships may have initially been in visual range and moved out or been about to do a strafing run from outside visual range.

3. We have also seen many examples of torps tracking ships in other episodes so why is it so unreasonable to think he would not fire from all launchers and let the torps track ships instead of just firing them from the side facing the Klingon ships?.

4. Considering the tracking we see in other episodes shown from torps its very unreasonable to think they were shot into empty space and acted like unguided canon balls.

The torpedoes Worf targeted at ships heading after the Defiant is from "Call to Arms," not "Way of the Warrior." The Defiant was finishing off the minefield at the time. We can certainly start a discussion about accuracy for that episode, if you like. Accuracy for this one is pretty poor.

It is still a good example of the range and tracking abilities of torps.

[Mike DiCenso]

Were you replying to me or Praeothmin, since we posted pretty much on to of each other. I addressed Kira's statement and the phaser sequence it follows.

The only thing that helps your supposition is the scene with the Neg'Var manueuvering about to fire with the torpedoes and phasers flying past. Everything else goes more for my supposition, especially when the dialog and it's proper context is observed. They order weapons fired in a particular sequence, we see only some of the hits because Kira's dialog clearly indicates that other hits are occuring. There is no getting around that. Therefore in the following scenes of hits and what you claim are misses, we can assume that like the prior similar scenes, there are additional hits occuring off-screen.


Also watch the later "Call to Arms" battle here, where we see very clear targetting of Dominion ships with more obvious hits thanks to the extensive use of CGI. The only time anyone misses blatently is when the Defiant and Rotarran flee the station and cloak out. Also note that in both battles it takes multiple hits to kill even small ships. In that battle we have a clear statement on total Dominion-Cardassian losses; "Over fifty ships lost". If we apply that to the earlier WoTW battle, then there were quite a few Klingon losses we did not see.
-Mike