Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

"Personal opinion".
Your bad luck that the pictures we see happen to be canon material, too.

You mean this one where they clearly point out visually and verbally that the pockets are just short of the molten CORE........



The depth is canon and confirmed visually and verbally.

Consession accepted.

The novel IS G-Canon.

Unless contradicted by the movie, the movie clearly shows no shield.......so no shield.

Rather, the shield was overwhelmed. Plain and simple. The dark spots are easily explainable by different crust thickness - which can range from 5km (ocean floor) to 50km (continents). These would, logically, expose the underlying core differntly.

The dark spots continue to grow after the beam has hit and that is contrary to a DET effect.

And not only that but YOU are not talking about a blowtorch baking off layers of paint.

With your debunked theory you are talking about the virtually instant effect of that much energy hitting the planet (1E38 is the absurd figure you use i believe) and as such it does not matter if it hits land sea or ice.

Your chain reaction hypothesis relies solely on the initial blue glow.

My chain reaction relies on no such thing.

You are clearly incapable of grasping the thermal differences between partially-molten rock and solid, 6000°C iron. Another piece of proof that you know nothing about planets.
Thermodynamics readily explains the secondary explosion.

I know enough about planets and Thermodynamics does not explain the second explosion if a DET weapon was used.

Again - i NEVER said that such a device does not exist in Star Trek.

AGAIN - consession accepted.

The mere existance of a single piece of technology does NOT result in it's widespread application.

I is not the existance of a "single piece of tech" it is the existance of the ability to have such tech available, the calcs in half a life were used to modify a photon torpedo within hours or sooner.

Photon torps are common and by that example easily modified.

And that particular example is one of several available.

I provided numerous examples - you ignored all of them.

Bcause they were worthless considering the circumstances.

This is not a burning asteroid. Do you even know how something that burns looks like?

Whatever dude the fact is that 2 nickel-iron asteroids so tiny and moving so slowly would not cause a explosion like we saw and nor would one burn/combust like it did.

By all means link me a image of 2 REAL roids the same size going the same speed that behave in the same way.

But even if it WAS burning: Explosive materials do NOT BURN! They EXPLODE!

Combustable materials can explode or burn depending the the energy they are subjected to amoung other things, that would be consistant with the fact that larger roids having low but greater impacts just exploded.

While with these 2 smaller roids only one was destroyed while the other combusted/burned.

If two pieces of Nitrogylcerin collide, do you think they would throw out burning pieces?

I explained your silly nito bit above...and yay...

do you think they would throw out burning pieces?

Oh so they were burning then......consession accepted.

but the sheer fact that a solid piece survived PROOVES that they are NOT made out of explosive material.

NO LIMIT FALLACY!!!!.....woooopie!!!!!.

Nobody ever claimed they were made entirely of combustable material, in fact it would be absurd to do so as very very few things are 100% pure of any single material if any.

The fact that they CONTAIN combustable/explosive material cannot be denied as our observation shows but i would argue AGAINST anybody trying to claim they were made entirely out of ANY single material combustable or otherwise.

Stopping the fusion in a normal star (like our sun) will not result in a supernova. This is, quite simply, because it does not contain the necessary inner pressure and heat.

Who cares?, it would still pretty much screw anybody living on a planet orbiting it, and if i remember generations correctly doing so caused a "shockwave" that destroyed the planets. I do not remember them being refered to as nova or looking like any examples of nova or supernovas i have seen in sci-fi or factual science programs.

Which prooves what exactly?

Oh, right - nothing. Unless you are willing to employ an (actual) no-limits fallacy and conclude that this device will heat up any star (regardless of stated requirements) in perpetuity - something for which there is absolutely NO PROOF.

Im sorry but where does it say that the dying star is a requirement?.

It is the REASON they are doing what they are doing but in no way is it stated or even implied that it is requirement. In fact the only issue that was mentioned was initialy the guidance system before the test oh and they were heating it to increase the helium fusion rate.

They nedded to stabilise at 220 million K, they hit the mark and it stops rising (yay thinks them all)........for a few seconds then the temperature starts increasing again and they bugger off at warp just before the star goes boom....(lots of sad puppy faces).

Here is a image of it BEFORE the process begins:

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Either way:
The asteroids travels a distance of 86 meters in 1 second. That gives us a speed of....43 meters per seconds (since every asteroids moves only over half the screen).
A sphere with a diameter of 1 meter has an radius of...half a meter.
4/3*pi*r³=0,523598 m³ about 0.525m³
At a density of 2330 kg/m³ (for silicone), that gives us a mass of:
2330 kg/m³*0.525m³=1220 kg or about 1.2 tons

An object with a speed of 43 meters per second and a mass of 1.2 tons has a kinetic energy of:
0,5*1220 kg*43m/s²=1127890 joules or 1.12 megajoules

Ok so 1.2 tons, that is roughly the same as a car depending on the type and 43m/s converts to 96.2mph.

Now while i would not like to be standing in the way of a 1.2 ton lump of anything traveling at almost 100mph i have to say that i am unwilling to accept that such a impact would do anything past causing some fragmenting and splintering to the two roids and deflecting them and the fragments.

I admire your tenacity by trying to include the lightbulb example but it is hardly applicable in this situation.

You point out that the bulbs only convert 3% of their energy into light but then try to say that 2 rocks bumping together would do so with their KE with 100% effeciency?. Now in sure that would require that as they collide all thier momentum is stopped, they do not fragment or deflect or do anything apart from turn the KE from the colissioninto light.

The impact at such speeds would shatter them or fragment them and also deflect both and all the bits into other and multiple directions, THAT is where the energy would go or stay depending on your perspective i suppose.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

That would not be the core - that would be the inner mantle. Learn some geophyics - i learned that in school when i was about 16.

Did you learn to read as well?.

What comes after the inner mantle?, oh thats right the outer molten core........did i say they were drilling to pockets that were just short of the molten core....yup.

Congratulations for confirming what i said.

-they are actually correct. Which would proove that they can somehow withstand thouands of degrees C

Il take this one and point out another comment regarding the fact they needed to wait until the pockets were cooled to a temperature they could enter them.

You really need to watch these episodes dude it would make things a lot easier because you would not post pointless arguments.

It is also contradicted visually.

Incorrect.

The movie shows a diagram. A military diagram only has to show what's important to the mission.

You do not think that getting through what you say was a planetary shield with the clearance codes was a important NO essential part of the mission?....

Well sorry but it was so if the military diagram did not show it then guess what?, your own rules just screwed you dude.

If no such amount of energy is released, the planet would NOT be blown up. Wether it is achieved by DET or chain reaction - you have AT LEAST that amount of energy. Simple physics.

It is interesting to note that according to the novel the DS is what 75,000km from the planet and the suspension of disbelief rule says that visuals are just that ie: like looking through a window. And we see the DS beam come from behind us and hit the planet meaning the window/camera is closer to the planet than the DS.

Now if the above comments are right then we do not actually see the explosion reach our position so the DS is either father away (and if you look how big the planet appears that is not a impossability as it should look much larger if we are only 75000km away) or the chain reaction used planetary material to fuel it and because of that some of the planets material was turned into energy and thus less energy was needed to shift the remaining mass because less mass = less binding energy.

Instead using...what exactly? The incrediby long timeframe of 1/10th of a second? Already explained darker spots in the explosion? Come on, tell me, so that i can debunk your chickenshit.

I am not sure what you want from me?, the chain reaction effect works with or without a shields it is not disproved like the DET effect is by the delay, ejected material after the beam has hit or the second explosion.....in fact those things confirm it.

You clearly do not understand the thermodynamic differences between partially molten (mostly silicate) rock and solid iron.

I may or may not but it is not required due to the DET effect and power rit would hit the planet with making the differances irrelavant.

You know what? You are actually right - if they truly can modify it on the fly in "half an hour" (unproven, but i'll accept it for now) - then yes, i was wrong.

Just watch it dude you can get it streaming for free, the guy gets beamed up they have a chat troi's mum does her "hi im annoying" bit and they program the torps ect all within a very short period of time.

You made no statement to the contrary. Uniform composition would be logical, and is constantly observed in asteroids.

Uniform composition

Oh, and suddenly, you are talking about generations? Can't you stay consistent?

You were the one who mentioned "Stopping the fusion in a normal star" (what sorins torp did in generations) so that is what i replied to, maybe you got trek WMD's confused as they do have a lot...:).

So...who's ignoring canon again? This outright states that the sun was instable. You have to show why it would work on any other star.

Im not ignoring anything and certainly not canon.

So...they already OVERHEATED the damn thing? Because a typical star like our sun only has a core temperature of 15 million degree celsius (and in case you don't know, that's pretty much the same in Kelvin).
How does that constitute proov that the star was, in any way, normal?

Why do you keep sayng that im claiming the star was normal?, i said from the start the star was old ect ect and i have never claimed otherwise.

But then i do not see the ability to heat a star to 220 million K and then even hotter so it goes boom as exclusive to a single type and while certian types would likely be immune like Neutron Stars i do not see it being a issue for Main Sequence Stars.

This is not a normal star. This is at least a Red giant. No vital planets in the SW-galaxy orbit a red giant. Further proof that it was NOT a normal star.

I never said it was normal alhough a red giant is part of our suns life cycle.

I challenged you to provide proof that KE is not enough to provide for the visual effects of the asteroids. Nope, you did not do it, just repeating that it doesn't.

I have explained it.

I challenged you to explain what an explosion is. You ignored that part - even tough it would have taken about one or two sentences.

An explosion is a rapid increase in volume and release of energy, sometimes with the generation of high temperatures and relese of gases.

Happy?.

I challenged you to provide proof that the Star in "Half a life" is a normal star. You did not do so, and the episode itself describes it as "unstable", while the star is clearly a Red Giant.

I never said it was a normal star, i did say it was old ect ect, and considering you confirm it is a red giant then i can now say it is a version of our sun when it gets old......so meh.

Yep - no proof for anything, despit it being pittyfully easy

Thats why i initially ignored them but as you started expanding a few silly questions into exhagerated claims of comments ive made (like the one about the half a life sun) i figured id correct you before you end up placing me on the grassy null.........

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I INCLUDED the 3% figure. It IS entirely arbirtray - but i did NOT claim that they release 100% of their KE in the form of visible light! They release radiation - some of it (i took the low 3% figure) in the form of visible light.
However, they DO have to release the energy of the impact somehow. Heat is the only way to do so, along with accelerating the fragments.
However, you will note that i only calculated the KE of ONE asteroid - more than enough left to explain any additional momentum.

Look i can get a couple of 1.2 ton blocks of silicon and whack them together at 100 mph in a direct head on collision to maximise the effect, now without preamble is this the effect i will see including the flame/burning/whatever.



YES or NO.

Now i know the answer and so do you but as you said in your last post you are capable of admitting a error so lets see if you are capable of a bit more honesty.

[Mike DiCenso]

Just a quick point here. There is no mention of a planetary shield anywhere in any of the movie novelizations, much less any of the movies themselves.


Star Wars - Episode I:

Naboo was not protected by a planetary shield. Nor is there mention that such thing exists much less a reason given as to why the Naboo do not have one.

Star Wars - Episode II:

Geonosis was not protected by a planetary shield - although there was a meeting of representatives of important members of the Confederacy of Independent Systems and a rather significant droid factory. Furthermore the Geonosians wanted to build the Ultimate Weapon, a rather ambitious project. Nevertheless Republic ships were able to land without anyone noticing anything, and certainly no shield to prevent even a local area landing.

Star Wars - Episode III:

Coruscant was not protected by a planetary shield - although there was a huge battle in low orbit and falling debris caused the death of thousands, what could have been prevented with shields. There is no mention in either the movie, nor the novelization about layered shielding as some Warsies and the EU have attempted to retcon to explain it's conspicuous absence.


Star Wars - Episode IV:

Alderaan was not protected by a planetary shield. Neither the movie nor the novel are showing a planetary shield.

Star Wars - Episode V:

Hoth was not protected by a planetary shield. Only the rebel base was protected by a theater shield of perhaps a few tens of kilometers diameter based on the speed of the Imperial Walkers.


Star Wars - Episode VI:

Endor was not protected by a planetary shield. The novel as well as the movie show that the shield was projected from the forest moon, encompassing the second Death Star, but not the moon itself.

The calculations for how much surface area the Endor-projected DS2 shield could have covered if spread out over the surface of a planet is covered in this thread here and here. In the best-case scenario it takes only 25 Endor-class shield generators to cover a planet the size of the Earth, and on the more realistic end of things over 2,300 of them.
-Mike

[Roondar]

This keeps getting more and more 'LOL' worthy.

Two metal objects weighing a ton, colliding at say 150 km/h producing a (massive) explosion and a (huge) flash of light? Is that seriously something these people are trying to defend?

So thats why collisions between cars or even better, trains, always end with huge explosions and blinding flashes of light (especially at night)!

Err, waidaminute... THEY DON'T!

Remember kids, hollywood 'science' does not translate into the real world ;)
/massive sigh

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Yeah, except that they point at the upper end of the lower mantle...at the border to the upper mantle.
Your own picture shows that it is, in fact, not anywhere close to the outer core. Even if we ignore the layering seen in it and just go by size.
Hence, dialogue and visuals are incompatible no matter what.

Actually if you watch that bit the screen shot given is a little inaccurate as the dialog during it is discussing the drilling to the pockets and he moves his finger down the image while talking. He finishes saying that and turns away but his finger is clearly at a depth of over 2 thousand km and as he has finished explaining the drilling part he turns and starts going on about the plasma infusion they are gonna use.

It is actually perfectly consistant with the change in conversational dialog and quite natural looking if you actually watch the episode.

Furthermore, we do NOT see red-hot glowing walls (as we would see near the core)
, nor do we see the crew getting baked,

Due to whatever mechanism they use to cool the pocket, they mention after the drilling that it would take a few hours to get the pocket to a temp they could work in.

AND we see (sun)light at the end of the tunnel.

We see light

Meaning the tunnel is likely simular to this (not to scale before you nitpick):


The phaser power adjustments mentioned during the drilling are consistant with it although i would say the holes would be more conical but it does show a result fully consistant with the drilling, diagram and dialog, cooling required, phaser str adjustments during the drilling.

Now the only argument that would be reasonable or even slightly within the realms of possability is if you said the molten core was larger on this world than eath and while that would ignore the natural flow of dialog during the part he discusses driling it would make the shaft 2000-2500km deep instead of 2800-3000.

So should you. Or perhaps reading a geology textbook would be more usefull.

I have watched it have you?, and while text books are good and sometimes useful canon material is better and takes precedence.

Since the mission was to take out the Death Star - yes, that's kinda not the critical point.

So the squad that was to take out the shield generator, the KEY to the entire ability to achieve the goal of the mission.......is "not the critical point"...

The fighters only needed to fly in and shoot a few weapons at the reactor but the main thing that allowed the whole damn thing to work you consider to be "not the critical point"...

Yea right lol, the diagram would have shown it, it did not so it did not exist, your rules pal.

Are you saying that Alderaan did NOT blow up? Are you on drugs?

Nope but id like to try the ones that make ppl leap to stupid conclusions like you seem to be on, what are they called?.

Im pretty sure i was talking about suspension of disbelief planetary scaling using Movie level G canon material.

The planet blew up. Which means that AT LEAST 2.4E32 joules are necessary.

Perhaps, but that does not mean the 2.4E32 joules (i was always ok with DET theorists using 1E38 tbh considering it is debunked anyway) came from the DS

You get more when properly scaling the explosion (which is not based on any POV from the DS, but rather simply the planetary diameter of Alderaan itself).

I do not remember hearing how large alderaan was in the movie, however the G canon visuals take precedence so either the DS was farther away than 75000km when it fired or alderaan was smaller than you claim.

I do not care enough to pick one so you can if you like.

Shields explain all the visual "inconsistencies" that form the basis of your argument. Planetary shields are G-canon. Parsimony tells us that no chain reaction is required.

Shields (if they exist) are a inconsistancy as they are not like seperate panes of glass, this means that the moment we see a dark spot during the beams impact that they have failed, the second/main explosion that destroys alderaan is long after the beam has hit.

Thus shields or no shields the dual explosions and the delay after the beam has hit between the planet exploding clearly disproves the DET theory.

The principle of parismony does not apply to disproved theories and regardless the chain reaction effect requires considerably less technobabble to make available and work than a DET theory.

Sorry, was that supposed to be an answer?

Yes or at least the start of one but we have a new member of the house hold (a now 10wk old yorkshire terrier puppy) and distractions are inevitable...apologies.

Anyway, while a uniform number of materials inthe roids making up the belt would be reasonable to sayclaiming that every roid would have the same amount of each material is not plausable.

It is not like slicing through a cake with equal lavers of jam, sponge ect and the bigger the slice the larger % of each you get.

Simple: You keep insisting that that trick would work on any star. You have not provided explanation of how that is supposed to work. Hence, you must assume that the star was, in fact, normal.

That is a bit of a leap tbh and inconsistant with the fat i mentioned on many times that the star was old and needed sorting...its the reason for the mission for gods sake lol.

But i suppose it could be argued that it is a normal star, just a old normal star as you point out by saying its a red giant.

Any heating would clearly be the result of processes in the star itself, unless you want to claim that single torpedoe can carry many teratons of energy.
A normal star would not heat up like that, nor would it require such a high temperature as their goal.

A normal star would not heat up like that, nor would it require such a high temperature as their goal.

Consider you have kindly confirmed that is in act a normal star all be it a old one we can in fact say that it would work and end in a simular rather explosive result.

Your premise was always that we should see no flash of light.

NO IT WAS NOT YOU ARE ASSIGNING IT THINGS YOU KNOW YOU CAN REFUTE BECAUSE THE TRUTH SCREWS YOU.

I said that it would not show what we see on screen.

Do you see a shockwave? Would there be a visisble shockwave?

I never really looked, we see a huge flash, we see expanding and burning gasses we see one of the roids catch fire and continue to combust.

You denied that being old and instable was a requirement. Yet they explicitly say so in that episode. Which, by your definition, means that you ignored canon.

The fact the star is old is not a requirement of the process, the fact the star is old and going to wipe out a civilisation is the reason why they are doing it....the star is in fact mearly a older version of our own confirmed by yourself.

I provided an answer (tough it was a crude one, thanks to bz249 for elaboration). You...apparently choose to ignore it.

I did not choose to ignore it i went to bed although it really said nothing of consequense considering the discussion.

You claim is no better than saying "the energy may/can produce light" then you say nothing because you know if you expand on it you are screwed in regards to what we see on screen, but every time you are asked if it is consistant you vaguely wave towards that comment still giving no definitive answer.

You are a disgrace to the methods you claim to use....but that is hardly news is it.

Wrong on nearly all counts, according to Wookiepedia and my own memories of several books.
Wrong according to the novel. The shield was explicitly sabotaged - hardly a feat if the Supreme Chancellor want's it to hapen.
IIRC, the novel mentions it. (It does, according to Wookiepedia).

All of that and more is disregarded by G canon movie material.

[Mike DiCenso]

A good example of a real-life space collison that did create a bright flash on impact was NASA's Deep Impact mission, which hit 9P/Tempel at 37,000 km/hour relative velocity and a KE energy equivalent to 4.7 tons (about 20 gigajoules) of TNT. The colliding asteroids in TESB are going thousands of times slower, so the bright flash and subsequent blue burning is left unexplained by KE alone.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Quote:Wrong on nearly all counts, according to Wookiepedia and my own memories of several books.
Wrong according to the novel. The shield was explicitly sabotaged - hardly a feat if the Supreme Chancellor want's it to hapen.
IIRC, the novel mentions it. (It does, according to Wookiepedia).

All of that and more is disregarded by G canon movie material.

Hardly matters. As you can read for yourself here, there is no mention whatsoever of any planetary shields, much less of them being sabotaged by anyone in the RoTS novelization. Neither the RoTS , movie entry, nor the novelization entry at Wookiepedia have any mention of planetary shields for being sabotaged, either.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

A good example of a real-life space collison that did create a bright flash on impact was NASA's Deep Impact mission, which hit 9P/Tempel at 37,000 km/hour relative velocity and a KE energy equivalent to 4.7 tons (about 20 gigajoules) of TNT. The colliding asteroids in TESB are going thousands of times slower, so the bright flash and subsequent blue burning is left unexplained by KE alone.
-Mike

I already pointed that out a bit before but they have done the usual SDN method of crapping out a bit if math ignoring the original question and then claiming to have solved a oversimplified version of it.

It goes like this:

Step one, Do the math and show that some light maybe or even will be created.

Step two, change and over simplify the question.

IE: From "will a indirect collision of two 1.2 ton rocks going 100mph cause the flash, explosion and flamng asteroid we see in the scene" now they change that question to "Your premise was always that we should see no flash of light".......

Step three, hope they do not notice the oversimplification and if the subject is refered to make a vague hand wave comment towads the math ect and mumble about it being disproved by "science"....

You see the tactic a lot on SDN, noticably by those who preach about "logic and science" being the determining factors in their theories, its very dishonest and quite disgraceful actually.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Well, it is STILL not consitent with the other visuals

TRANSLATION:

Not consistant with one INTERPRETATION (a warsie one that ignores canon materail as usual) of ONE visual.

Energy has to go somewhere - it can't just disappear. Where did it go?

Not important considering that canon says they cooled it some how.

Ah, so you just claim that most of the tunnel was very wide, as evidenced by...what exactly?

Caonon dialog.

So you prefer watching a Star Trek episode over reading a science book?

Caonon material > contemporary science.

Ignorance still does not constitute an argument.

Ignorance + wishful thinking has even less.

And....where does it come from, then? Planets are not giant bombs that blow up on their own, you know?

It was mentioned by some body who considers himself a expert the the Empire has the ability to induce fusion in heavy metals, liquid reactants, or with a considerable net gain of energy.

Thus using this persons science as a weapon makes the chain reaction a very effectrive weapon, thus the DS superlaser chain reaction effect.

Alderaan clearly has earth-like gravity. That set's pretty harsh limits for it's size.

HEY, do not blame me im just using the suspension of disbelief and looking at the size of alderaan from the view we get as the superlaser is fired and the chain reaction effect is begun.

Besides - why can't you have multiple layers of shields?

G canon example of multilayered shields and how the substantiate your DET debunked theory pls.

Thermodynamics.

Quantum theory!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Batman and robin!!!!!!!!!!!.

Fish and chips!!!!!!.

Sorry but that does not work with anybody who has a dozen or so brain cells.

"Shorter explanation"≠"better by parsimony".

DET requires:

1. An unknown material capable of creating 1E38 per 24 hours.

2. A reactor capable of turning the above material into 1E38 per 24 hours.

3. Capacitors constructed within a 160km diameter sphere capable of storing up to a minimum of 1E38 over a 24 hour period.

4. The ability to create 1E38 per 24 hours without refueling during its operational life time..

You are aware that these four tings are required just to fire the DS1 superlaser?.


A chain reaction requires:

1. The ability to bypass the Lawson criterion, or create a fusion net energy gain in virtually any substance.

You do not understand what uniform mean then.

I think you mean MEANS...considering you wish a "NITPICK" competition il play.

But if you wish to discuss the issue (although if you did not know you were gonna lose you would not nitpick so i doubt it) lets go on.

A red giant is NOT like our sun (and similar stars).

That's equivalent to claiming that lead is equal to uranium, just because one is the result of the other.

Actually its like you saying a Old age pensioner is not a human being......

Soo...why do they try it on a SIMILAR star, which happens to be just as old (roughly, of course)?

Because the civilisation they are trying to save live on a planet that is orbiting one...........wtf are you smoking?.

You said that a normal kinetic impact is not enough to produce the flash of light.

I said that the speed and composition of the roids impact was inconsistant with the effect of what we see.

YOU played the usual math and word games to try and ignore the fact i was correct...you disgrace the science you claim to use.

Yet you do not adress my (and bz249's) calculation.

HMMM so a calculation that came to the a relative conclusion that if you hit flint to a bit of steel you get a spark?.

When you can conclusivly say that the roids we see traveling at the speeds we see wil cause the effect we see get back to me, until then stop playing word games................in fact scrap my last comment KEEP playing word games because it does your cause more harm to the unbiased educated than it will ever do mine.



.


All in all we see here a SDN warsie abusing the science and honesty that they claim to hold dear.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Again - go read a bloody textbook.

When text books over ride CANON i will until then....Again - go watch bloody canon.

And how did they prevent the heat from flowing back in? Especially when the damn thing began to cave in and their equipment broke down.

When i cool things in my fridge i do not turn it off just cos the temp is reched, i keep it on so the temp i want is consistant....damn your crap is weak..lol.

Real life applications>Star Trek

Canon material > Real life applications.

Damn what happened to suspension of disbelief?...

This person is a moron that got toroughly debunked my Mike Wong http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... ths_4.html

The person im refering to is talking about the Empire being able to cause FUSION In "heavy metals, liquid reactants, or virtually any substance".

He does not mention FISSION in that particular bit about energy generation.

Your link has no bearing on what i am refering to....

Wookiepdia.........

Does not give material in it any canon status at all...FAAAAIL.

1 and 2 are identical

Is Urainium the same as a reactor capable of using it as fuel..........yet again you disgrace the science you claim to use for the sake of your bias.

and 3 might easily be covered by 1 as well

The DS1 needed 24 hours to create enough energy to fire, that energy needed to be stored some where........and the disgrace continues.

Which, as explained above, would require more energy than simple DET and would result in a net LOSS of energy.

Wrong the Empire has the ability to get a net gain of energy from "virtually any substance" using fusion .

But kudos on looking up the Lawson criterion - can you do more than just spout that word tough?

The ability for the Empire to bypass the Lawson criterion or get a net energy gain via fusion from virtually any substance by other means has been part of my chain reaction effect from day one, you will not be the first rabid warsie to get owned by it.

You are basically assuming that, if i am capable of outrunning/killing (not that i would do the latter) an 95-year old, then i am also capable of doing that with an 20-year old

Yup....a drug that accelerates the heart rate so much that the heart explodes works if you are old or young.

If the process would work on any star, why pick that particular one?

Because the one they were trying to save had simular aspects......

You specifically named the flash of light.

A flash of light is PART OF IT i dd not specifically point out any of it i require ALL of it to be explained.

You as per usual from a warsie you are trying to use a dishonest debate tactic by claiming that because a flash of light MAY appear (let alone at the intensity we see) that ALL the unexplained phenomenon are explained ..........YET AGAIN you disgrace the methodology you claim to use...how utterly disgraceful.

dipshit...blah blah

Oh yes more insults with a ultimatum that you can use as a escape route now that your dishonest and disgraceful abuse of science has been exposed.......so pitifully obvious.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Does anyone's else head spin, too? Because spinning around like that makes me kinda dizzy. Oh well, at least he's slowing down.

Your final acceptance of canon WMD's in trek helped shorten things considerably, and i suppose the head spinning is a result that most ppl posting the truth that i am showing you on SDN would have been banned by now.

In other words, you have no interest in real life knowledge.

Im sure the topic under discussion is sci-fi and while it is nice to be able to understand and explain aspects of each franchise within the bounds of known science your disgracful attitude regarding it and abusing it shows how much you need to debate on other forums more.

MANY aspects of Sci-fi cannot be explained by science but you seem to think that when others point this out you have the right to point fingers and claim moral high ground, TOTALLY ignoring the fact that most of the franchise you support and the theories you also support rely on doing exactly that.

Quite simply you are a typical SDN hippocrite.

And when you fridge breaks, does it still work?

Who cares the food stays cold for long enough for me to fix it or get another.

Not to mention that you are incapable of even providing a citation that they even DID cool it. Do so.

I am not incapable of doing so i just feel that somebody who watched the episode and has the ability to debate it would have known that the pocket would require several hours to be cooled and the episode used that ti8me to devolop the datas mom plot a bit.

Oh, sorry......that's just cracked me up for about a minute.
Do you HONESTLY try to argue that knowledge about Star Trek canon is superior to knowledge about real life?

Actually it did not crack you up at all, what you saw again was a chance to misinterpret a post and you leapt at it, what the point was is this:-

In regards to a sci-fi discussion canon material>real life applications.

But then you knew that already and are again using the SDN tactic of distorting a question or comment because the true answer to the actual question or comment proves you wrong or does not serve your bias.

Suspension of disbelief ignores neither common sense nor science.

If we see something that you claims breaks the known laws of physics suspension of disbelief says that it happened so the physics of it are beyond are currant understanding.

Simply put you cannot deny canon material.

Did you even READ it? The second part of it is titled "the FUSION myth".
Apparently, you can't even read a quarter-page long article.

I did not read it mostly because the article i am refering to in regards to the Empire being capable of creating fusion in "heavy metals, liquid reactants, or virtually any substance"....was written by somrbody who claims to be qualified and a expert on such matters (personally i think he is a clown but whatever).

It's not G-canon

KTHANXBYE.

If you have a reactor capable of putting out a specific amount of power, you clearly must have a fuel capable of doing so.

The reactor and the material are exclusive things, yes they work together in your debunked theory but they both require a scientific justification and explanation.

So 1 + 2 apply and both require explaining.

Wrong. He needed AT MOST 24 hours - no recharge time was mentioned, it could have been much shorter.

24 hours or 2.4 hours it still means that the DS had to have had capacitors or some kind of energy storage capable of holding and storing 1E38 within its 160km shell when a entire planet exploded after it hit it (in your debunked theory).....

So 3 applies and requires explaining.

I see you ignored 4 so il repeat that thDS did not seem to refuel and considering the 1E38 figure would require roughly 1 quintillion tons of matter and antimatter to react perfectly (PER SHOT) and create such energy please do not tell me it was in a storage locker.

Provide evidence for such a claim.

I have none the person who provided the science mearly claimed the Empire had the ability and yes he did Note that "fusion" does not necessarily refer to nuclear fusion.

The very same ability would give them the capabilty to produce that much energy in reactors.

If the reaction could be contained i agree.....FUEL TANKS!!!

I added the bit on the end to way lay your next poorly thought out post.

Furthermore, you ignore the fact that, in order to induce nuclear fusion, they would need more energy than for DET.

You ignore that the theory involves bypassing lawson criterion or uses a fusion that is not nuclear both mean a net energy gain without requiring a vast amount of energy input.

Do try to keep up mr science.

Nice to see that you choose to ignore my more apt comparision to an immune system.

Apt?, a sun with a immune system?...lol.

Furthermore - just because a drug can accelerate "hearth rate" by X and an old mans heart is incapable of maintaining it, it is not necessarily capable of inducing death in a young person (whose hearth would be more resilient).

#

Actually as you point out earlier a chain reaction weapon does not increase by X and that is why they are so powerful, the chain reaction weapon continues until summat goes boom.

And....that disprooves my point how?

Your point was that the torps/tech involved had limits because of the sun they were going after but the fact is they were going after that sun because it matched the one that they needed to fix.

You specifically mentioned it. Indeed, until i trashed that claim, you did not mention the "flames" at all.

You trashed nothing apart from your credability.

And please do look back to where i introduced the material and the multiple images as well as the write ups, i clearly mention the flaming......and SPLODINGASTEROIDS.

Both of these effects as well as the intensity of the light flash have yet to be explained.

Physics does indeed dictate that it does.

NO your manipulaion of sceince metodology, interpretation of results, words and events are a disgrace.....but typical of SDN so no supprises for me really.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

What I THINK he's trying to say is that if canon shows something that by our knowledge of physics is impossible, canon wins. Which is of course correct.

Yay me.

What he DOESN'T seem to understand is how canon actually WORKS. If someone says they drilled 3000km deep that does NOT mean they drilled that deep, it merely means SOMEBODY CANONICALLY SAID SO.

I has visuals that also confirm the depth.

Especially when the visuals are totally incompatible with that.

ONE personal INTERPRETATION of ONE visual MAY be incompatible........

And since you repeatedly called your, for want of a better word, debate partners on their spelling, I am afraid I have to point out that there's only one o in prove

YEA GET IT SORTED YOU ILE..ILI..ILLET....screw it....silly bad spelly person"!"!...:D.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You are beginning to ignore more and more of my post. That's either dishonest, lazy, a sign that you can't answer the points or a combination of those.

I am only ignoring the truely irelavant parts.

WHERE did i do so?
Stop inventing things out of thin air, you liar.

Well going from "my personal opinion on politics means the canon material about the tech is disporoved".

To ""my personal opinion on politics means the tech exists but they do not have stockpiles".

While your opinion makes the second comment also a waste of time the fact that we have no canon material showing stockpiles is actually a better comment to make and quite accurate..........less arrogance would serve you better id say.

Any way it is unimportant considering how quickly they can modify existing weapons to cause suns to explode (well under a day).

So - you are interest in science-FICTION, but not in SCIENCE. As i said, interesting

How hum yet again you twist your own meaning out of my comment so you can attack it....

When science sees something that does not fit with currently known explanations, it tries to explain it.
We do the same in sci-fi. That does not mean we discard canon - but we can still try to find explanations.

Thats fine but when you step outside the bounds of known science you open the door to more than just your own theories on how a effect was achieved.

Translation: waah, i don't understand math, science or suspension of disbelief!

TRANSLATION:

"WAAA you understand enough math, science and suspension of disbelief to point out my misuse and abuse of it."

Yeah, yeah, i humorously misinterpretated the post.

Consession accepted.

You simply think that canon DIALOGUE trumps everything, even canon visuals

Wrong.

1. We get a dialog describing where the pockets are as well as a visual referance.

2. We get a direct comment regarding the temerature and that it will take time to cool down.

3. We see a light source from the top of the narrower shaft, or from a atificial light in a single shaft depending on what explanation you prefer regarding the adjustment of phaser power near the pockets.

None of this is inconsistant with a 2500-3000km shaft and all of it is consistant visually and verbally.

YOU however wish to ignore point 1 visual and verbal referances.

You also wish us to ignore point 2 verbal referance.

You want us to assume that the light in the pocket and that shown from the top of the narrower shaft was not only sunlight but also blue sky......when it clearly is not blue sky and the light could easily be artificial.

A theory based on one visual also based pure speculation in regards to where the light is from is not a sound method especially when it contradicts other canon material.


A

lways these people who belief that our scientific knowledge will change, rather than expand.

Again you put words into my mouth......

I did not say "change" i said beyond our ability to understand and understanding can grow.....or if you prefer expand.

No, we can't. Such as planetay shields, perhaps

Theatre shields are G canon you cannot speculate planetary shields into the same level of canon.

So you did not read an article adressing FUSION because....you are referring to fusion?

It refers to nuclear fusion.

*sigh* The mere existance of a high-density fuel explains the output of the DS-reactor.

The high density material you require and the reactor are seperate pieces both require explaining or conceeding that at out currant level of knowledge we require a more "expanded" knowledge of physics to understand them BOTH.

If you asked me to describe Urainium and a i showed you a picture of a reactor i doubt you would accept it and visa versa.

*sigh* If you can transport energy, you can use the same medium to store it. Not necessarily the most efficient thing, but definately possible.

Rubbish, if the DS could do that it could fire planet busting shots without a delay.

And again - if they have an incredible dense fuel or energy source (such as a supermassive black hole - we know that they can use those), that readily explains the need for refills.

WOOP!!.

Please direct me to the movie that showed the DS parked along side a supermassive black hole getting a fillup and its tyres checked pls, or a movie verbal referance to such a event.

Link it, then. If the person in question used good sources, that is entirely sufficient.

He does not give any referances he mearly claims that..... The Empire can induce fusion in "heavy metals, liquid reactants, or virtually any substance", he also says it is not nuclear fusion and works on a totally differant principal but does not say what. He does go on a bit and also says they use it as a method of fueling some of the empires ships as well.

I already explained that an extremely dense fuel readily explains the lack of fuel tanks

Well at 1 quintillion tons of M/AM needing to react perfectly per shot density is a understatment, but it would take a lot of explaining along with the mass issues regarding the fact the DS was a moving space station.

Even IF you bypass lawsons criterion, you still loose energy when nuclear fusion of heavy metals occurs.
If it is not nuclear fusion, it can easily refer to our extremely dense fuel.

The ability to create fusion in any material including heavy metals, liquid reactants, or virtually any substance with a net energy gain is a ability the Empire has aparantly but nobody said it was nuclear fusion....you just assumed it.

Oh, and it's MS science - i am female.

Fine MS science it is.

Ah, so a chain reaction is automatically a no-limits fallacy.

Hmm that did look a bit like a no limit fallacy did'nt it?.

I was actually refering to the fact a chain reaction effect is not limited to the energy the thing firing it can create.

HOLY CRAP you actually did not need to twist what i said into something else this time because of that poorly worded post..........are we seeing emotional growth or was it just luck?.

Hey, they actually expected it to stop. That it did not stop could easily be explained by the fact that the sun they tried it on was too old.
A younger sun would most likely have stopped (since there is simply no process to accelerate fusion in perpetuity, unless you can ignore such things as the speed of light).

I suppose it depends on what they were doing to the sun in question the episode clearly says they are increasing fusion within the sun so it heats up, it reaches 220 million K and like i said everybody is happy. But is starts rising quite rapidly after that and lshortly after the sun goes boom.

Now our sun is 15 million k ish at the core, so heating it up to at least 20 times that temperature (it rises from 220 to 251 million K in seconds and continues to rise before going boom) should have some sort of effect although i do not know what it would be.

I already explained the flash of light.

Actually you said their may be light generated, in no way have you shown that it would be the intensity we see on screen.

You have not explained the explosions and your theory about the burning is laughable to be honest.

However one thing we do know thanks to you bringing it up earlier is that the roid colissions in AOTC that are accelerated by the force of the siesmic charges to a speed comparable or greater than those in TESB do behave nothing like those in TESB.

The visible sky,

It is not sky it is light, sky is your personal interpretation that ignores other visual and verbal canon material.

the cave itself, the fact that it is not boiling......

nor that they cool it artificially,

They refer to the fact the pocket needs to be cooled taking several hours.

Why would they go into detail about the cooling process?, do we ever hear how anything they cool in ST or SW from weapons to engines regularly refered to in detail?. Absence of a minor detail regularly ignored is not proof enough to disregard canon material.

the phasers were specifically programmed to hit only a disintegrate only a small tunnel,

I assume you are refering to the comment that they are using a highly focused beam?, well they are drilling a hole not trying to dig a bloody great surface crater (ref: Q-WHO).

we do not see a giant hole when we see the site from orbit,

Irelavant.

there was at least a second shot

There was more than one pocket if that is what you mean but no where do we see or is it mentioned that they fire more than once per hole, in fact datas mum mentions that she is going to adjust the beam as they go and we see her doing so while the beam is being fired.

In fact when she does this it is expressly commented on that if they halt the beam during the drilling they would need to start at another point (it is mentioned that there is no other point and dun dun duuuuun....yay she adjusts the beam and its all good).

It is also mentiond while they are in the pocket that there are signs of stress in the surrounding magma this so supports the fact the pockets are near the liquid outer core.

"I has" :lol:


I corrected you ons words that you spelled incorrectly after being corrected several times.

Oh well so much for adding a bit of humor.