Continued relevance of Spacebattles and SDN?

[ILikeDeathNote]

How relevant are Spacebattles and SDN in the overall scheme of things, not just in regards to the Vs. debate? I've visited both and it seem that despite large membership numbers, little discussion actually happens, and I would say 90% of the discussion in both sites is by 20 or less posters.

[The Dude]

How relevant to the VS debate?

The thing is that it's pretty much dead, what remains isn't so much a debate as it is folks shouting at each other through a wall. They don't come here, SFJ members largely don't go there, kind of hard to have a debate that way.

*Disclaimer, I hardly visit SB.

[ILikeDeathNote]

I mean how relevant as websites period. Are they influential gathers of sci-fi fans or do they even register on the radar?

I know people insist on acting like it, such as putting links at TVTropes under "significant websites" but that's almost without a doubt just attempt to advertise.

[The Dude]

Well the technical aspects of SW/ST are at least prominent enough to draw attention to things like the Executor size and for authors like Traviss to comment on.

But lets not kid ourselves, it's a niche hobby. I mean 3000 members (or so) at SDN and I can list the debaters involved on both hands.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'm getting a strong sense of deja vu here. Hasn't this question been asked here or elsewhere before, and it got pretty well answered? Or are you simply repolling to see if people's opinions have changed?
-Mike

[The Dude]

Huh, I thought it was just me.

[ILikeDeathNote]

I'm getting a strong sense of deja vu here. Hasn't this question been asked here or elsewhere before, and it got pretty well answered? Or are you simply repolling to see if people's opinions have changed?
-Mike

It may have been me who asked it. I just want to see if there's any changes - in particular, I'm pretty sure I remember Spacebattles having a membership of 30,000 a decade ago. I just visited a few minutes ago and at best it looks like membership has risen maybe a few hundred. Likewise, it seems as if SDN has similarly plateaued, which I suppose is no surprise since they almost go out of their way to form a closed (minded) niche. Factoring in the number of posters who don't actually post (in which stating "a vast majority" might in fact be a massive understatement) and it seems as if the actual active population of either website is very small, in fact more comparable to either here or Tyralak's site, which I'm sure will be much to the chagrin, complaints, and contrary claims of members of either site.

[The Dude]

*shrug* They opened registration again on SDN, there has been a slow trickle of new members that post IIRC. Mind you there's been a couple bans as well.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'm getting a strong sense of deja vu here. Hasn't this question been asked here or elsewhere before, and it got pretty well answered? Or are you simply repolling to see if people's opinions have changed?
-Mike

It may have been me who asked it. I just want to see if there's any changes - in particular, I'm pretty sure I remember Spacebattles having a membership of 30,000 a decade ago. I just visited a few minutes ago and at best it looks like membership has risen maybe a few hundred. Likewise, it seems as if SDN has similarly plateaued, which I suppose is no surprise since they almost go out of their way to form a closed (minded) niche. Factoring in the number of posters who don't actually post (in which stating "a vast majority" might in fact be a massive understatement) and it seems as if the actual active population of either website is very small, in fact more comparable to either here or Tyralak's site, which I'm sure will be much to the chagrin, complaints, and contrary claims of members of either site.

Then I don't think the answer has changed all that much. SDN, whether it has recently reopened membership or not, is still a place that actively stifles any new evidence or ideas on the old Star Trek vs Star Wars debate. They still consider it a done deal and they still keep thumping their ICS bibles like good little true believers, and actively drive off anyone who tries. Thus leaving behind the people who continue to buy into and reinforce the groupthink opinion, or are too intimidated into speaking up.

So any versus debating that does occur involving Star Wars, has to be done with a different franchise (e.g. Stargate, Warhammer 40,000). In the chase of WH40K vs SW, it is something the Warsies cannot get around since there isn't as much in the way of visual depiction, and lots of hyperbole-filled colorful fluff material that they cannot argue as well against as they can with the ST franchise and it's contradictory FX and dialog.

SB.com on the other hand, is slowly starting to have a change of opinion on the debate, at least as far as the general membership is concerned. However there is still a long, long ways to go it seems as there are still mods who actively support the pro-Wars view, and go out their way to abuse their authority to do so. Until that changes, there cannot be much in the way of renewed ST versus SW debate there, and other debate regarding SW versus other franchises with also likely be quashed as well.
-Mike

[ILikeDeathNote]

So any versus debating that does occur involving Star Wars, has to be done with a different franchise (e.g. Stargate, Warhammer 40,000). In the chase of WH40K vs SW, it is something the Warsies cannot get around since there isn't as much in the way of visual depiction, and lots of hyperbole-filled colorful fluff material that they cannot argue as well against as they can with the ST franchise and it's contradictory FX and dialog.

Another thing is that the WH40K crowd tends to be, if anything, even more rabid than the Warsies.

[The Dude]

Another thing is that the WH40K crowd tends to be, if anything, even more rabid than the Warsies.

I hear that said a lot here but I don't see much of it. I certainly hope I don't come off as a nutter but other then Necronlord, White Haven and the rabbit fellow, there don't seem to be many hardcore fans on there (oh and Conner). Certainly none that are foaming at the mouth.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, while that helps, being hyper-fanatical only gets you so far. What got the Warsies as far as they have is a combination of fanaticism, and the ability to cloak their BS in an appearance of respectiable science. With WH40K, there are actual described instances in the fluff and game mechanics of high power weapons, as well as the descriptions of the IoM itself place it on a scale comparable to the Saxtonian GE.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Another thing is that the WH40K crowd tends to be, if anything, even more rabid than the Warsies.

I hear that said a lot here but I don't see much of it. I certainly hope I don't come off as a nutter but other then Necronlord, White Haven and the rabbit fellow, there don't seem to be many hardcore fans on there (oh and Conner). Certainly none that are foaming at the mouth.

I second that. Okay, this needs to be given more flesh here. A lot of people at SDN, if we're to take that place as an example, again (and that's largely because it's both known for being related to the versus debate and hosting extensive threads about WH40K), several people seem to flock to the general wank without bringing any form of criticism. Probably being rabid fans, they're just too happy with the status quo over there. But it has not always been like that. I actually found older threads, before Connor's numerous interpretathons which appeared very reasonable in the nature of the claims made in them.
But I guess that zealotry of Wong about SW did taint the way fans of other universe would approach their own pet franchise.

Most ironically, an universe that would be high subjected to that kind of maximalism is Halo. But Wong also made it clear that Halo wanking wasn't welcomed, especially when it comes down to Master Chief. I hope he didn't read the new arguments, he'd have a seizure. You'll notice how it's scantly debated at SDN. One can only imagine the kind of cherry picking and silly arguments we'd get served with if the Halo dogma had burgeoned at SDN, with the kind of mentality found over there when it comes to Star Wars. That said, considering the profile of the recent arguments and claims that spread at SBC, notably after the release of the mediocre encyclopedia, it may appear that the Haloites are doing rather fine on their own after all. ;)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes, while that helps, being hyper-fanatical only gets you so far. What got the Warsies as far as they have is a combination of fanaticism, and the ability to cloak their BS in an appearance of respectiable science. With WH40K, there are actual described instances in the fluff and game mechanics of high power weapons, as well as the descriptions of the IoM itself place it on a scale comparable to the Saxtonian GE.
-Mike

What most people forget about those cases is that there are enough that point to lower estimates just as much. You'd be surprised if you considered that it's closer to Star Trek and its exceptional high ends more than people generally think. Not to say that many high end feats are hardly scientifically accurate. I picked two cases that were recently brought to my attention, and after a bit of digging, I found their exact texts, and it's just downright silly, simply impossible, flies in the face of logic and yet we're supposed to take those feats as demonstration of raw firepower.

[Jedi Master Spock]

*shrug* They opened registration again on SDN, there has been a slow trickle of new members that post IIRC. Mind you there's been a couple bans as well.

When did they close registration at SDN?

I mean how relevant as websites period. Are they influential gathers of sci-fi fans or do they even register on the radar?

I know people insist on acting like it, such as putting links at TVTropes under "significant websites" but that's almost without a doubt just attempt to advertise.

Well, it also helps establish authority. When there was still a Wikipedia page up about the VS debate, we actually got a surprising number of inbound links and a bit of a page rank/search rankings boost from being linked to on that article.

SDN members' habit of spouting links all the time and deleting links to ST-v-SW helps direct search engine traffic from people wanting to look up technical information on Star Wars/Star Trek to their website and not competitors'. That's the way it works.

SDN is significant because of that publicity effort. It is true that next to no actual VS debate happens on SDN, and only a little activity related to the VS debate. Mostly, it's just a Wong-centered social club with a couple hundred active members, finding comfort in being with people they mostly agree with. However, it's pretty much impossible to engage in the VS debate anywhere on the internet without SDN coming up - so it's certainly still relevant.

As far as SB goes, SB has more VS discussion going on than anywhere else. Most of the posting activity may be by a fairly small subset of registered posters, but that's still more people than you'll see debating SF than anywhere else. We simply don't have very many posters here on SFJ.