SDN in a Nutshell

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Cock_Knocker
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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Cock_Knocker » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:08 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:What do you think would happen if Poe, Wong, Young and Saxton were to ever admit publicaly that what they thought about SW tech was incorrect or flawed all along, especially where the ST v SW debate is concerned? Well, there goes their credibility among all their sycophantic fans, and along with it the adoration they enjoyed inflating their egos with.
-Mike

Wow, really?

I'm still being mentioned in the context of the VS debate? Err...I haven't cared for nearly two years now. In fact, I've tried to DONATE all of my Star Wars books and assorted other crap to a local Star Wars fan club, and even THEY won't take them! If I had the patience for eBay, I'd get rid of 'em that way, but again, that would require me caring about the subject.

Feel free to proclaim throughout geekdom that Poe condedes everything, if anyone still cares. BDZ < Beer Fart In A Whirlwind? Agreed. SSD 300 meters long? Not a problem.

I'm still making silly movies and blogs on Youtube and elsewhere, and I'm currently in the middle of a film project I hope to have in some flea bitten festivals next year. Anyone in Southern California that wants a ton of Star Wars crap; let me know.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:39 am

Well Wayne, for good or ill, for better or worse, you have to admit that you've helped shaped the Versus debate hobby into what it is today. I do feel sorry for you that you felt it necessary to not only bow out of SDN and the debating, but also to give up a lifetime's worth of your Star Wars collection (I can understand giving up the prequel stuff, though). I really cannot imagine the awful bitterness that drove you to do something as extreme as that. I honestly hope that is something I won't ever have to do, and I sincerely and without any malice wish that you are able to move on and enjoy the rest of life where your other hobbies are concerned.
-Mike

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Trinoya » Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:24 am

Whoa, I'm really out of the loop, I thought we were all aware that Wayne has been gone for some time what with the entire removal of flames between him and G2k. lol... Shows I really should pay more attention to posts outside of the 'other' forum more often.

That said, I'm curious about which books you're getting rid of Wayne.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:43 pm

Cock_Knocker wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:What do you think would happen if Poe, Wong, Young and Saxton were to ever admit publicaly that what they thought about SW tech was incorrect or flawed all along, especially where the ST v SW debate is concerned? Well, there goes their credibility among all their sycophantic fans, and along with it the adoration they enjoyed inflating their egos with.
-Mike

Wow, really?

I'm still being mentioned in the context of the VS debate? Err...I haven't cared for nearly two years now. In fact, I've tried to DONATE all of my Star Wars books and assorted other crap to a local Star Wars fan club, and even THEY won't take them! If I had the patience for eBay, I'd get rid of 'em that way, but again, that would require me caring about the subject.

Feel free to proclaim throughout geekdom that Poe condedes everything, if anyone still cares. BDZ < Beer Fart In A Whirlwind? Agreed. SSD 300 meters long? Not a problem.

I'm still making silly movies and blogs on Youtube and elsewhere, and I'm currently in the middle of a film project I hope to have in some flea bitten festivals next year. Anyone in Southern California that wants a ton of Star Wars crap; let me know.
Sounds like someone who's desperate to erase any trace of this misadventure that was about belonging to a sect he's spent massive amounts of time and money into.
Nothing personal, I'm just going for an analogy here. That's just what comes to my mind. Or the story of a drug addict, just getting knee deep into one thing, only to experience a rather hard fall.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:51 pm

Cock_Knocker wrote:I haven't cared for nearly two years now. In fact, I've tried to DONATE all of my Star Wars books and assorted other crap to a local Star Wars fan club, and even THEY won't take them! If I had the patience for eBay, I'd get rid of 'em that way, but again, that would require me caring about the subject.
Hello Wayne, I understand that you could get tired of the versus debate, but why get rid of your SW books?
You don't like the "universe" anymore?
I mean, even if you don't care about anything related to SW vs ST, don't you still think a Lightsabre is a cool weapon?

If you could PM me a list of your available books, and how much you want for them, I may be interested.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Cock_Knocker » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:03 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Well Wayne, for good or ill, for better or worse, you have to admit that you've helped shaped the Versus debate hobby into what it is today. I do feel sorry for you that you felt it necessary to not only bow out of SDN and the debating, but also to give up a lifetime's worth of your Star Wars collection (I can understand giving up the prequel stuff, though). I really cannot imagine the awful bitterness that drove you to do something as extreme as that. I honestly hope that is something I won't ever have to do, and I sincerely and without any malice wish that you are able to move on and enjoy the rest of life where your other hobbies are concerned.
-Mike
Well, let's clarify. I was banned from SDN after, in my opinion, I held up a mirror into the collective faces who preach equality for all but don't practice it. Long story, and I egged on the banning; entirely on me. I hold no grudges toward SDN or Mike, although to say he and I are best buddies would be stretching the truth a bit. I was pretty bored with the VS debate and Star Wars discussions in general way before I tossed a grenade into SDN. I still interact with Mike and Curtis, Brian, Pete, etc. on the so-called "Secret Warsie Support Email Group", but Star Wars rarely gets a mention unless a Clone Wars episode comes up.

My "collection" consits of novels and tech books I haven't touched in years, coulpled with action figures and assorted other things. Bitterness isn't really the word. I simply got tired of the hobby, and all the stuff surrounding Star Wars in general. Still love the movies, but haven't watched anything after RotS. No interest.

Everything outside of SW is going great, Mike. I'd never begrudge anyone who still has an interest in this stuff. I had great fun with it while it still interested me.
Trinoya wrote:That said, I'm curious about which books you're getting rid of Wayne.
I'll send you a PM when I look through the bin in a few weeks.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Sounds like someone who's desperate to erase any trace of this misadventure that was about belonging to a sect he's spent massive amounts of time and money into.
Erase? Well, I have taken down all of the VS related videos from Youtube, but other than that, it was simply boredom with the subject. I have no embarassment with ever being connected to SDN or the VS debate itself.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Nothing personal, I'm just going for an analogy here. That's just what comes to my mind. Or the story of a drug addict, just getting knee deep into one thing, only to experience a rather hard fall.
Glad it's nothing personal, dude! Let's use a better analogy. The poon wasn't getting me hard anymore, and I had to go looking for a new piece of Strange. Found it.
Praeothmin wrote:Hello Wayne, I understand that you could get tired of the versus debate, but why get rid of your SW books? You don't like the "universe" anymore?
I'd have to say I've had my fill of the SW universe, yes. I'm concentrating on original material to spend my time on from here on out, unless its a one-off video like my latest Jedi Academy duel video: Anakin Skywalker vs Darth Sidious. I spent more than a year on Indiana Jones and the Gray Ghost, which is way too much of a time investment for anything I haven't created.
Praeothmin wrote:I mean, even if you don't care about anything related to SW vs ST, don't you still think a Lightsabre is a cool weapon?
The lightsaber will always be a cool weapon! :)
Praeothmin wrote:If you could PM me a list of your available books, and how much you want for them, I may be interested.
Will do.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:18 am

So what's the new dope, Wayne?

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Cock_Knocker » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:00 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:So what's the new dope, Wayne?
I've been into "vlogging" since the beginning of 2008. Currently, I'm supporting my friend's website, BLAM!. I vlog there, and I've made the rudest puppet on the planet for that website, Kyhole, who is based on an actual attack vlogger named Kyhell. I belong to a vlogging group called the Innercircle.

I'm currently filming a documentary, details of which I can't go into currently.

BTW, have any of you heard of Victor1st? He's supposed to be the biggest name in Star Trek gaming. A while back, he tried to make a name for himself on social networking sites, and went to "e-war" with my friend Mac. It didn't turn out well for Victor. (I wasn't a member of the Innercircle when these videos were made)

Methadone Mac!
The Phone Call

We've also hung out with Greg Lions, who was a porn star in the 80's under the name Rod Pierce. He does live shows on BLAM Miondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.

In addition to machinima videos on Youtube, I still put up silly videos I do with friends:

He Said / She Said

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:31 am

Oh boy I'm so lost. That vlogging stuff is just too new for me, and bores me actually. Of course that seems to be the logical end of this particular course, branching into twitter or vlogging, as a conclusion to "The Quest of The Less Text, The Better"... rite :|

As for ST gaming, I didn't even know there was something to care about, really. :)
What's the game? Space sim, FPS? Woah, must be exciting firing phasers...

As for this documentary, you can't even give a rough clue about its topic?

EDIT: Oh, one last thing. The sound on that he she said thing is not really good, especially when the girls talks.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mith » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:19 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Cock_Knocker wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:What do you think would happen if Poe, Wong, Young and Saxton were to ever admit publicaly that what they thought about SW tech was incorrect or flawed all along, especially where the ST v SW debate is concerned? Well, there goes their credibility among all their sycophantic fans, and along with it the adoration they enjoyed inflating their egos with.
-Mike

Wow, really?

I'm still being mentioned in the context of the VS debate? Err...I haven't cared for nearly two years now. In fact, I've tried to DONATE all of my Star Wars books and assorted other crap to a local Star Wars fan club, and even THEY won't take them! If I had the patience for eBay, I'd get rid of 'em that way, but again, that would require me caring about the subject.

Feel free to proclaim throughout geekdom that Poe condedes everything, if anyone still cares. BDZ < Beer Fart In A Whirlwind? Agreed. SSD 300 meters long? Not a problem.

I'm still making silly movies and blogs on Youtube and elsewhere, and I'm currently in the middle of a film project I hope to have in some flea bitten festivals next year. Anyone in Southern California that wants a ton of Star Wars crap; let me know.
Sounds like someone who's desperate to erase any trace of this misadventure that was about belonging to a sect he's spent massive amounts of time and money into.
Nothing personal, I'm just going for an analogy here. That's just what comes to my mind. Or the story of a drug addict, just getting knee deep into one thing, only to experience a rather hard fall.
I don't know, it really doesn't surprise me. I'm sorta finding myself less and less interested in debates lately. Maybe I'm just starting to realize how fucking stupid this whole thing has become. I'm really starting to get sick of everyone having to stick a tree branch up their ass on the VGX for a god damn sci-fi show to see that they get 100% of the shit right or follow 100% of the laws of science right, even when the bery premise of the series is spitting right in its face.

Recent Narada thread is just that. I now have to prove that the black hole that was called a black hole multiple times was a black hole? Now I have to prove that the Narada really fought 47 Klingon ships and it wasn't some other ship? I'm sick of harping on special effects like Stargate, Star Trek, and even Star Wars. I shouldn't be able to get away with telling people to suck it on cartoon special effects. People shouldn't get away with tossing out gigaton nukes in SG because the mushroom cloud didn't last three minutes because the VFX guy doesn't know how to produce a 100% accurate nuclear explosion effect. Or have to listen to a dipshit masturbate to a quote taken out of context and claiming that a single room with a flapping door can withstand an 80 megaton nuke and then still try to argue it when the author of the damn book said that was wrong.

Poe, I think I might join you out of sheer frustration to the stupidity of the rules. I don't mind some sort of clinging to physics--I like that. But it's really getting out of hand I think.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:54 pm

Sorry to hear that you're getting so burned out so quickly, Mith. Is your fustration a result of interacting with people at SB.com?
-Mike

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:11 pm

Mith wrote:Recent Narada thread is just that. I now have to prove that the black hole that was called a black hole multiple times was a black hole? Now I have to prove that the Narada really fought 47 Klingon ships and it wasn't some other ship? I'm sick of harping on special effects like Stargate, Star Trek, and even Star Wars. I shouldn't be able to get away with telling people to suck it on cartoon special effects. People shouldn't get away with tossing out gigaton nukes in SG because the mushroom cloud didn't last three minutes because the VFX guy doesn't know how to produce a 100% accurate nuclear explosion effect. Or have to listen to a dipshit masturbate to a quote taken out of context and claiming that a single room with a flapping door can withstand an 80 megaton nuke and then still try to argue it when the author of the damn book said that was wrong.

Poe, I think I might join you out of sheer frustration to the stupidity of the rules. I don't mind some sort of clinging to physics--I like that. But it's really getting out of hand I think.
I've looked at that thread, and I'm noticing a couple things. Yes, the documentarian approach is absurd. I've said that time and time again. VFX are dramatized at least as much as dialogue. Here's what stuck out to me:

1.) Complete absence of any attempt to quantify anything. Almost no actual arguments are being offered - the main argument I see in all five pages for the Executor is that it's a warship instead of a converted mining ship. Which, on the scale of arguments, is pretty primitive.

2.) Complete absence of creative interpretation of Treknology. I would feel frustrated, too, in your shields, but with my knowledge of physics and how severely Treknology violates it, I would be addressing the argument directly and materially. See below for an example of an explanation.

3.) Argumentum ad ignorantiam en masse. The response to arguments in favor of the Narada is exactly this.

It's established canonically in TNG that Romulan ships are powered by quantum singularities, aka black holes. Do you know how Romulans play with black holes? I had a pretty good idea well before the new Star Trek movie came out, and it's an idea that fits surprisingly well with the completely absurd "red matter" weapon. Yes, the physics of red matter is absurd, but the fact that something violates physics absurdly does not render you unable to use in a VS debate. You simply need to quantify it.

"Deja Q": Warp fields operate by varying G, the gravitational constant of attraction, for a local region. Warp fields also mess with the "effective" speed of light, since we can see - visually - ships travelling at warp. Provided the viewer is also at warp. So under normal circumstances, a warp field would decrease the local value of G (definite) and we can speculate that it would also increase the local value of c.

"Timescape" and "Face of the Enemy" tell us that Romulans force quantum singularities into existence, but once forced into existence, they can't be shut down. Now, the Schwarzschild radius is given by 2Gm/c^2. Put the warp field in reverse. Increase G locally by a factor of 1000, and you create a 1000x larger black hole. If you also decrease the local value of c by a factor of ... oh... 10, you're looking at the Schwarzschild radius of the Earth increasing to 90 kilometers. (Fiddling around with these constants also messes with Hawking radiation.)

Weaponizing black holes ala red matter simply requires violating physics sideways with warp fields in ways that are actually somewhat reasonable given what we've seen warp fields do. Red matter weapons are more warp-field weapons than anything else; all you really need is that red matter is some degenerate form of matter that binds/generates/stabilizes inverse warp fields in the appropriate proportions. Not even necessarily permanently.

The fact that stray inverse warp fields would also have a serious effect on anything trying to get away using their own warp field is icing on the cake and clobbers the last part of the complaints about the black hole weapons. You have to have a Treknological explanation, but if you can come up with a good one, it'll extend to tell you what will happen if you put the Narada in other circumstances.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:20 pm

Can we use the Schwarzschild radius on a singularity, a black hole, that can't be "shut down"? The smaller the more powerful one is I think, but this would also mean it would evaporate pretty quickly if not given matter. So how is it that a black hole is eternal??

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:59 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Can we use the Schwarzschild radius on a singularity, a black hole, that can't be "shut down"? The smaller the more powerful one is I think, but this would also mean it would evaporate pretty quickly if not given matter. So how is it that a black hole is eternal??
"Can't be shut down" isn't the same thing as "eternal." Destabilizing a black hole by fiddling with warp fields could have several plausible results under science fiction physics.

I would prefer that a singularity remain a singularity under deformation by warp fields. So then the black hole - well, its event horizon - simply shrinks or expands to the appropriate size for its mass and the local values of G (and possibly c, if your warp field varies that, too), while its temperature (and hence output) varies accordingly based on your manipulations. This doesn't mean it stops radiating, and if you turn off all the warp fields, it simply behaves normally for a black hole of its mass.

If it's small - thousands of tons or so - it'll detonate dramatically fairly soon due to Hawking radiation if you turn off the surrounding warp field controls and matter feeds. If it's larger, it'll last for a longer time. So here are your choices if you want to truly shut down a Romulan reactor. Turn off the regulating fields, and the black hole will keep putting out juice on its own through Hawking radiation. So how could you have a cold core?

One, you manipulate warp fields to force the black hole to evaporate all the way, emitting all its energy at once - this is like having a really big warp core breach. Two, you manipulate warp fields to stabilize it and feed lots of matter into its artificially expanded event horizon - in which case you have a large but stable black hole lying around. Neither option is really practical to do while keeping the singularity aboard a ship (as in "Timescape") so Geordi saying that they can't be shut down makes a lot of sense.

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Re: SDN in a Nutshell

Post by Mith » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:28 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote: I've looked at that thread, and I'm noticing a couple things. Yes, the documentarian approach is absurd. I've said that time and time again. VFX are dramatized at least as much as dialogue. Here's what stuck out to me:

1.) Complete absence of any attempt to quantify anything. Almost no actual arguments are being offered - the main argument I see in all five pages for the Executor is that it's a warship instead of a converted mining ship. Which, on the scale of arguments, is pretty primitive.
But it’s a warship! It doesn’t matter if it’s got the technology of a wooden sail boat in comparison, because it’s a warship!

Ugh.
2.) Complete absence of creative interpretation of Treknology. I would feel frustrated, too, in your shields, but with my knowledge of physics and how severely Treknology violates it, I would be addressing the argument directly and materially. See below for an example of an explanation.

3.) Argumentum ad ignorantiam en masse. The response to arguments in favor of the Narada is exactly this.

It's established canonically in TNG that Romulan ships are powered by quantum singularities, aka black holes. Do you know how Romulans play with black holes? I had a pretty good idea well before the new Star Trek movie came out, and it's an idea that fits surprisingly well with the completely absurd "red matter" weapon. Yes, the physics of red matter is absurd, but the fact that something violates physics absurdly does not render you unable to use in a VS debate. You simply need to quantify it.

"Deja Q": Warp fields operate by varying G, the gravitational constant of attraction, for a local region. Warp fields also mess with the "effective" speed of light, since we can see - visually - ships travelling at warp. Provided the viewer is also at warp. So under normal circumstances, a warp field would decrease the local value of G (definite) and we can speculate that it would also increase the local value of c.

"Timescape" and "Face of the Enemy" tell us that Romulans force quantum singularities into existence, but once forced into existence, they can't be shut down. Now, the Schwarzschild radius is given by 2Gm/c^2. Put the warp field in reverse. Increase G locally by a factor of 1000, and you create a 1000x larger black hole. If you also decrease the local value of c by a factor of ... oh... 10, you're looking at the Schwarzschild radius of the Earth increasing to 90 kilometers. (Fiddling around with these constants also messes with Hawking radiation.)

Weaponizing black holes ala red matter simply requires violating physics sideways with warp fields in ways that are actually somewhat reasonable given what we've seen warp fields do. Red matter weapons are more warp-field weapons than anything else; all you really need is that red matter is some degenerate form of matter that binds/generates/stabilizes inverse warp fields in the appropriate proportions. Not even necessarily permanently.

The fact that stray inverse warp fields would also have a serious effect on anything trying to get away using their own warp field is icing on the cake and clobbers the last part of the complaints about the black hole weapons. You have to have a Treknological explanation, but if you can come up with a good one, it'll extend to tell you what will happen if you put the Narada in other circumstances.
That is actually really fascinating. But I’ve also been looking at the other examples of Trek black holes—and I think I’ve found something interesting. In Visonary, it was mentioned by Jadzia that a black hole could be located deep within subspace. In other words, these black holes may not just be breaking apart and vanishing via magic; they could be in fact, designed to sink into subspace via a technobabble reason. As stated in Visionary, the gravitational effects of the black hole hidden under the cloak wasn’t being detected and O’Brien even pointed that out, hence where Jadzia’s response of the black hole being deep in subspace.

In other words, it’s possible that red matter creates a temporary black hole, which then sort of ‘sinks’ into the lower subspace layers, thus no longer presenting a threat to any nearby ship or such due to the lack of gravitational effect, although it could still pose a temporal problem, but the range for that may not be high enough to pose a problem.

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