Club ASVS is up

[Tyralak]

The web based version of the Usenet group which spawned a thousand web boards is finally online. It's not completely finished, as I still have the arduous task of moving all the old ASVS fanfiction over. I'm also still playing with various modifications and theme enhancements. http://www.clubasvs.net

[Mr. Oragahn]

Wow, that's almost a hijacking. I don't see this going too well.
ASVS may have spawned numerous websites, but it completely failed to adapt. ASVS is almost a decade late.
I'm not even sure there's enough people with a passing interest in ST vs SW to split between SBC, SDN, SFJN and now again ASVS.
On the three first boards, SFJN is pretty much the last one that has really been active in the big versus, followed by SBC and tailed by SDN, where the debate is considered beyond done since years.

However, the main advantage of that ASVS board, I must admit, notably in comparison to this place here, is that the interface is much kinder to the eyes. The background is less clashing with the typo (less darker), it's much more spacious, it's sober, buttons are clear and there's not an overabundance of white outlines. Globally, the colours are far less contrasted and it feels like the text can breathe. There's likely some efforts to do on the SFJN interface imho.

May I ask what you've been doing all that time, and where were you posting?

[Tyralak]

Wow, that's almost a hijacking. I don't see this going too well.

Hijacking? Hardly, considering I'm the one who started ASVS.

ASVS may have spawned numerous websites, but it completely failed to adapt. ASVS is almost a decade late.
I'm not even sure there's enough people with a passing interest in ST vs SW to split between SBC, SDN, SFJN and now again ASVS.
On the three first boards, SFJN is pretty much the last one that has really been active in the big versus, followed by SBC and tailed by SDN, where the debate is considered beyond done since years.

I don't expect the VS section to be the most popular part of the site. It
would be great if it were, but the site has so many other areas and features. ASVS had it's own unique culture which deserves to be preserved. It's not so much that it failed to adapt, it's that it was confined to a medium which was rapidly declining in usage. A good cross section of ASVS alumni supports me in this endeavor. Dalton has given me access to his fanfic archive to be ported over, and many others are signing up. Also, Club ASVS isn't meant to be a competitor to this site. It's a very different kind of place, and is meant to have a different atmosphere. This site is based on calm, well reasoned debate. Club ASVS is much like the Usenet version. Bare knuckled and pugnacious.

However, the main advantage of that ASVS board, I must admit, notably in comparison to this place here, is that the interface is much kinder to the eyes. The background is less clashing with the typo (less darker), it's much more spacious, it's sober, buttons are clear and there's not an overabundance of white outlines. Globally, the colours are far less contrasted and it feels like the text can breathe. There's likely some efforts to do on the SFJN interface imho.

Thank you. I spent a long time looking for the best theme. I use Simple Machines Forum software, and I found a theme called Enterprise that I customized for the site. There are some glitches, but I hope I can work them out over time. I'm still learning the software. I really wanted to use VirtualBB software, but I didn't have $180 to plunk down for it.

May I ask what you've been doing all that time, and where were you posting?

Mostly Satelliteguys.us, DBStalk.com, Crazyamerica.org and Trollkingdom.net Also, dealing with a lot of complicated real life issues that consumed a considerable amount of my time.

[The Dude]

Well I certainly like the appearance, were did you get the Warbird photo from? It looks like a pic you would see in an intel briefing or something, you know "we think this is the new Soviet XYZ".

[Tyralak]

Well I certainly like the appearance, were did you get the Warbird photo from? It looks like a pic you would see in an intel briefing or something, you know "we think this is the new Soviet XYZ".

Ali Sama found it for me. Not sure where he got it from, but I thought it looked more "vicious" than a normal Warbird.

[2046]

I'll just skip straight to Usenet's own Godwin's Law without even signing up at this Club ASVS and say:

"Ohhh, ASVS again. Wow, that's like remaking Nazi Germany for the sole point of having original Nazis reminisce there."

Or the DS9 remix:

"ASVS vets are to be called Founders, you say? How appropriate, in most cases."

All joking aside, though, I find the whole idea of an ASVS web forum perplexing. Wasn't that called SDN?

More specifically, it seems you're seeking to build a community (founded around ASVS vets) rather than cultivate the actual topic, given some of what you said in response to Oragahn. This community is meant as a sort of preservation of the culture of ASVS.

Now, it seems to me that there's already a Vs.-themed web forum (founded around ASVS vets) that has nothing much to do with the Vs. Debate but retains the obnoxious culture, and has a founder who's intent on building it into a community.

It's a unique idea, but only if you're trying to replace Wong and SDN. Otherwise, this Club ASVS has no point and can serve no purpose.

Sure, you can get disgruntled SDN'ers like Dalton (does he even post at SDN anymore?) or Wayne Poe, and maybe a few others here and there. But it seems to me that your entire game plan is built around folks leaving Mike Wong, because that's the only real difference between the two sites. And even if all the ASVS vets leave him, what of it? A sufficient number of SDN's toolbags have no interest in ASVS, and even if some of them also want to leave Wong you're going to have to cultivate the same level of service, give or take . . . that means giving them their private porno/Christian/gay/pro-PETA/anti-PETA/girls-only/military/wannabeagirlingaypornwithmilitaryChristiansandwelltreatedanimalswhodiedofnaturalcauses usergroups and forums.

Are you prepared for that? And also, Wong runs SDN off of servers and a corporate internet connection going to his house, all to the tune of like 1200 CDN per year, if memory serves, because free hosts couldn't cut the load. Surely your little HostGator.com account doesn't match that?

So if you can't replace SDN and instead wish to co-exist, what is it that makes your forum a unique niche spot and not just another time vampire for people to take or leave? What can SDN folks get at Club ASVS that they can't get anywhere else? "Founder" status? Who cares? And why would new people want to come if it's a forum populated by a bunch of grizzled old internet geeks with poor manners and less sense in the first place? (After all, the only person who really cares about Strowbridge is Strowbridge.)

See, what makes SFJ unique is that instead of merely being a Vs.-themed forum, it's actually a Vs. Forum. SB sort of is, but it's (a) more multi-topical and (b) is run just like SDN insofar as pro-Wars moderation is concerned, so in that sense it is both (a) annoying and (b) not unique. Then there's TFC, which is unique insofar as it has the furry ... whatever. I still don't get that.

By analogy, what you're doing is opening up a second TFC forum which inexplicably tries to relive the J. Marcus Xavier glory days even though all the same folks are still there except him, and he's not at yours either. Can you explain why that would work?

Just askin'.

[l33telboi]

Love the layout. I'm registering, though obviously I'm no ASVSer.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Seeing the warbird and the star destroyer up there, it reminds me that if I had to pick the most emblematic and perhaps powerful ship in Stargate, I don't know which one I'd pick. Perhaps a 304 although they're not my fave, since they have been wanked out so much, and you see them most and have been featured in both shows intensively.

[Tyralak]

Love the layout. I'm registering, though obviously I'm no ASVSer.

Thanks. I hope you'll like it. It's still a work in progress. I'm trying to get SMF modifications to work right on there. I'm working on adding a chat room now.

[Tyralak]

OK, 2046. I had to think about how to reply to this one. I was frankly taken aback at your response. First of all, let's get something straight. This has NOTHING to do with Wong or SDN. Nowhere is Wong MENTIONED on my site. He's free to come there if he wants, as is anyone. Do you honestly think I would go to all this trouble because of some butthurt that happened 12 years ago? Of course I would like some of his traffic, but I'm not trying to "replace" SDN. SDN is a very different kind of board, and not a place I want mine to emulate. SDN, IMHO took the worst parts of ASVS and magnified them. That isn't what I plan to do. Club ASVS is a true free-speech sci-fi board. Moderation is kept to a bare minimum, and you really have to work at getting banned. There will be NO bias. There are only a handful of things you can get banned for.
ASVS was ALWAYS about more than the VS debate. There were all kinds of discussions. It's a different site than here. SFJ is a more gentlemanly place playing by Marcus of Queesbury rules. That's fine. That's good. It has it's place. Mine is very different. I'd like to think they could co-exist. You wanted to know my "purpose" or what I want to accomplish? It's not hard. Fun. Amusement. The same reason most of us frequent these boards. If it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out. ASVS was a fun part of my life. I'd like to preserve and expound on some of it.
If you're who I think you are, then I understand your butthurt about the place. But you're taking this out on the wrong person. I stuck up for you numerous times there and took a LOT of shit for it. However, this I don't get:

And also, Wong runs SDN off of servers and a corporate internet connection going to his house, all to the tune of like 1200 CDN per year, if memory serves, because free hosts couldn't cut the load. Surely your little HostGator.com account doesn't match that?

So, you're comparing a site that's been open for 3 days to a site that's been up for 7 years? That's hardly fair. Second I don't get your little snipe about my hosting service. First of all, Hostgator isn't free. It's not expensive, but it's not free. Second, why in blazes would you think I would start out with the kind of system Wong has? That would be a unbelievable waste of money at this point. Third, Wong doesn't HAVE to do that. He does it because he wants to. There are other sites that are every bit as big as SDN that use remote hosting services. DBSTalk and TrollKingdom spring immediately to mind. If you would like to join, I'd love to have you there. If you don't then that's fine too.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

Think I'm going to join, if you don't mind a relative noob on your site...

[Tyralak]

Think I'm going to join, if you don't mind a relative noob on your site...

I would love it! Everyone is welcome!

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'll wait at least six months I think and see if it evolved in a good fashion. Then I may register.

[2046]

OK, 2046. I had to think about how to reply to this one. I was frankly taken aback at your response.

Sorry. It wasn't an attack, I didn't think, or an attack on you specifically . . . I just didn't understand the purpose of the new board. I couldn't see what it was that would make it different and special.

Suffice it to say, you've taken as hostility what is, in fact, mere confusion on my part, based on the following:

1. ASVS, at least in its later years, was not a worthwhile place to spend time and was not populated by the best internet denizens.
2. The Vs. Debate has evolved and though there are many details yet to work out, the years have not been kind to the pro-Wars majority camp's position. Thus resurrecting ASVS seems almost an attempt to go back to the pro-Wars heyday.
3. I couldn't figure out what unique thing your board had to offer besides a more ASVS-specific Vs. theme.

The latter is just sort of a marketing concept, I suppose.

SDN is a very different kind of board, and not a place I want mine to emulate. SDN, IMHO took the worst parts of ASVS and magnified them. That isn't what I plan to do.

But by giving elevated status to the same old folks, I don't know how you'd avoid it. That's one of the places where I get confused. I mean, most ASVS regulars were basic closed-minded loser flaming trolls even before I arrived there, and those who followed the crowd to SDN have received even more socialization toward the idea that such behavior is normal, to the point that they eat their own.

The mention of Wong was merely because it seems to me his absence is the main thing which sets Club ASVS apart from the SDN board, given the presence of the same ill-mannered people.

Club ASVS is a true free-speech sci-fi board. Moderation is kept to a bare minimum, and you really have to work at getting banned. There will be NO bias.

But this means it's merely a numbers game, like ASVS was, and thus . . . as before . . . those with the higher numbers will be chums who shout down and try to intimidate foes, validity of arguments be damned. That's the exact opposite of the direction the Vs. Debate needs to take.

At least, that would be the case in regards to the actual Vs. Debate stuff. I realize you put low import on that side of it, though. Hence my mention of it being mostly a "Vs.-themed" forum, as opposed to an actual Vs. forum.

ASVS was ALWAYS about more than the VS debate. There were all kinds of discussions. {...} You wanted to know my "purpose" or what I want to accomplish? It's not hard. Fun. Amusement. The same reason most of us frequent these boards.

So it's a community board, then . . . meaning a place for people to get together and to continue the ASVS off-topic discussions moreso than the Vs. stuff.

But my point was, how would you draw people there from SDN, considering that the same folks have the same service there that your board would provide?

Then again, you make specific mention of easy moderation and free speech . . . is that the crux of the thing, what makes yours unique? Do you have information that ASVS regulars don't feel like they can have free and open discussions on off-topic matters at SDN?

I've never paid too much attention to off-topic stuff there, so I don't know. I spend my off-topic internet time elsewhere.

If you're who I think you are, then I understand your butthurt about the place.

Butthurt??

By their own rules they were defeated on the facts, and I have moral victory, besides.

My explorations on canon and the superlaser and such have been borne out by further comments by Lucas and now even in their own precious EU, the latter in spite of their best efforts to remake it in their own image by way of Saxton.

And of course, let's not forget that they are regarded as weirdo "Talifans" by the mainstream Star Wars fandom and certain LFL personnel who've dealt with them.

Finally, add to that that I still live and live well despite their best psychotic efforts (another thing that they've evolved over time at SDN to include foe's-area mapping projects, visitation discussions, called threats, and so on . . . though I note with pleasure your explicit rejection in the Club ASVS rules of such things as posting the personal info of others), and . . . well, to put it plainly, I have the veritable trifecta.

And also, Wong runs SDN off of servers and a corporate internet connection going to his house, all to the tune of like 1200 CDN per year, if memory serves, because free hosts couldn't cut the load. Surely your little HostGator.com account doesn't match that?

So, you're comparing a site that's been open for 3 days to a site that's been up for 7 years? That's hardly fair. Second I don't get your little snipe about my hosting service.

It wasn't a snipe. Hell, you probably have better hosting than I do. The point of that was that if you were gunning for Wong's market (which you say you aren't, so it isn't relevant), you'd need to be prepared for the server load (which you say isn't as bad as he claims, so that point is also moot).

I just know my pitiful hosting couldn't hang back in '04 or whenever it was. While I suppose I could get something that would now, though, the sort of board I would run would be a profound time vampire for me.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Very good move, I'd say. I definitely didn't have the time to port ASVS in through a section here, and I think your theme definitely looks a lot better than mine. Recoloring Black Pearl to a more SFJ-type color set just hasn't worked out too well. (If anybody has any theme suggestions, by the way, please pass them on in the TD thread.) I also really like the Warbird shot.

I think Tyralak is very right in that the sort of venue he describes - genuinely unmoderated discussion - simply does not exist within the VS community. SFJ was the only place where a moderator would not ban you simply for disagreeing with some perceived consensus - and our standards of polite conduct are much higher than SDN or SBC, which seems to have kept away most of the Saxtonite crowd.

It's quite possible that Tyralak's site could even prove a more active debate venue, and that would be a good thing.