Wong's education and career

[Jedi Master Spock]

And, what? How is what he engineers relevant to this discussion? He still completed his engineering education, meaning he's got the same mechanical engineering knowledge as an engineer working for any other company with an equivilant education.

I have to disagree. To the degree that you care to differentiate between different schools and different sub-programs, almost no two randomly selected mechanical engineering degrees will be precisely equivalent.

What he engineers, and what he specialized in while at school, is relevant to the same (limited) degree that the fact that it's mechanical engineering as opposed to some other field.

In a general sense, his education is pretty much equivalent to Graham Kennedy's - he has a bachelor's degree, Graham Kennedy has a bachelor's degree. Both emphasize a certain amount of physics, which is then applicable to VS debate.

It only becomes more or less relevant when we go into something that MW as a mechanical engineer has covered or works with regularly that GK as a physics teacher does not, or vice versa. And then we should be concerned with specifics.

[The Corporal]

I have to disagree. To the degree that you care to differentiate between different schools and different sub-programs, almost no two randomly selected mechanical engineering degrees will be precisely equivalent.

What he engineers, and what he specialized in while at school, is relevant to the same (limited) degree that the fact that it's mechanical engineering as opposed to some other field.

In a general sense, his education is pretty much equivalent to Graham Kennedy's - he has a bachelor's degree, Graham Kennedy has a bachelor's degree. Both emphasize a certain amount of physics, which is then applicable to VS debate.

It only becomes more or less relevant when we go into something that MW as a mechanical engineer has covered or works with regularly that GK as a physics teacher does not, or vice versa.

Edit: You know what? Never mind, this is what? The third/fourth time that you and I have been over this.

[Who is like God arbour]

Better how? You both work in totally unrelated fields, your a lawyer correct? That is comparing apples to oranges, even if you have a PhD in law, it is a totally different field.

I'll try to explain it using the following example:

• If someone with a degree like Mr. Wrongs degree, would come to the German Federal Forces (Bundeswehr), he or she could start as a Lieutenant.
• If someone with a degree like my own degree, would come to the German Federal Forces (Bundeswehr), he or she could start as a Mayor.

Furthermore, there is an article on Wikipedia about the German Staatsexamen:

• The first Staatsexamen examination is at a level equivalent to a M.Sc. or M.A., while the second Staatsexamen is roughly comparable to passing the bar exam or finishing ones' residency.
  Staatsexamen students can proceed to a doctorate.

I have the second Staatsexamen, while already the first Staatsexamen is at a level equivalent to a M.Sc. or M.A.

And yes, the fields are unrelated. But nevertheless, you can compare the amount of work, one has to put into ones education or the difference of knowledge and abilities, one has after the finishing of ones education.

Jurists have to be able to decide, if an engineer has made errors and is liable for the death of people or other damages. That's why we have to be able to understand scientifical expertises - as ludicrous some of SDN may find it [1]. An engineer on the other side has not to understand the work of jurists.

Which story is that from?

Reign of Terror, written by Mr. Wrong.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Try and stay with me here JMS, what I have been trying to say is that it does not matter what he does for living. His education is the same as the guy working at Boeing with the exact same degree and specialty. That he designs toliet seats is nothing more than a humerous anecdote.

It all depends on what question we're answering. Someone with a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering working for Boeing is much more likely to be an expert in aerodynamics, for example.

It does matter a bit what someone does for a living. Someone with a degree in electrical engineering who has been working for ten years as a chemist (believe it or not, field jumps like that can happen without additional formal education) may have let their electrical skills rust - and is likely to know a lot about chemistry.

If MW designs toilet seats, he probably knows an awful lot about the physical (in particular structural) properties of certain types of plastic, which your typical mechanical engineer does not. Now, all of this has a very limited bearing on the VS debate, IMO; most of the discussion about education in the VS debate has been a red herring.

Edit: You know what? Never mind, this is what? The third/fourth time that you and I have been over this.

It's always quite possible one of us will find something new to say.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Better how? You both work in totally unrelated fields, your a lawyer correct? That is comparing apples to oranges, even if you have a PhD in law, it is a totally different field.

I know we're side-tracking here, but it would appear as though at his second Staatsexamen, he does have an education roughly equivalent to the American or Canadian Juris Doctor, which is generally a three year program following a bachelor's degree. I'm not going to say that's precisely equivalent to a Ph. D. in law, but it is a professional degree.

If someone with a degree like my own degree, would come to the German Federal Forces (Bundeswehr), he or she could start as a Mayor.

For future reference, it's "Major" in English, as well - the spelling stays the same, although the pronunciation changes.

Jurists have to be able to decide, if an engineer has made errors and is liable for the death of people or other damages. That's why we have to be able to understand scientifical expertises - as ludicrous some of SDN may find it [1]. An engineer on the other side has not to understand the work of jurists.

In general, I believe this is dependent some on specialty and location. A lawyer or medical doctor in the appropriate specialty might start with a bachelor's degree in physics. In some specialties within law, and within the United States or Canada, I can readily imagine encountering a lawyer who does not have the slightest grasp of engineering (e.g., a medical malpractice specialist).

[ILikeDeathNote]

I feel that I should add a detail that may clarify things:

I recall, a very long time ago (several years already) when Wong's site was still regularly updated and I bothered to read it, that Wong said he had to have a change in occupations due to having an allergy to a substance he regularly worked with.

So, he probably worked with something in the past, I would guess some kind of plastic.

EDIT: I found the article in question, to my surprise, all the way back to the very first post of the decade (or merely the year 2000, for the pedantic), the one where he gloats about Y2K being a fizzle :p

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/WhatsNew-2000.html

I recently discovered (the hard way) that I have a severe allergic reaction to beryllium-copper alloy. This means that if I am exposed to Be-Cu alloy in a regular basis, I'm in a high-risk group for developing a degenerative lung condition known as beryliosis later in life. Since Be-Cu alloys are ubiquitous in the plastics processing industry, I may have to seriously consider a career change. Oh well, change is good for the soul (and in my case, the lungs), so if anyone knows about any opportunities for an engineer with experience in plastic injection and blow moulding, plastic part design, 3D modelling, mechanical design, CAD/CAM, and UNIX/NT network administration (and who can't go anywhere near Be-Cu alloys), then let me know :)

Although his allergic reaction is specific to beryllium-copper alloys, he has made it clear that his former occupation was in the plastics industry. However, we simply don't know anything more specific without, well, specific information. It could very well be toilets (though I recall most toilets being either still porcelain or fiberglass, though I do recall that Be-Cu alloys being present in fiberglass forming machinery and tools) or it could have been children's toys, plastic models, furniture, or plastic furnishing or furniture for cars, planes, or hell, weapons of mass destruction for all I know.

[Feldercarb]

It's easy enough to verify whether he's full of it or not.

Go here and search his name, find the guy who went to Waterloo and his license number and whatnot should be there.

http://www.peo.on.ca/cgi-bin/EPIM_Searc ... _Search.do

[Praeothmin]

it's easy enough to verify whether he's full of it or not.

Go here and search his name, find the guy who went to Waterloo and his license number and whatnot should be there.

Nobody's saying he's "full of it" when he says he has an Engineering Degree.
I believe him, and I'm pretty sure everyone here believes him too.

We are saying "he's full of it" when he acts as if his degree makes him totally impervious to making mistakes, or when he automatically assumes that because someone disagrees with him, that person cannot be educated and have a degree...

[Jedi Master Spock]

We are saying "he's full of it" when he acts as if his degree makes him totally impervious to making mistakes,

Or, for that matter, that a bachelor's degree in engineering qualifies him as an expert on most of the things he's talking about.

or when he automatically assumes that because someone disagrees with him, that person cannot be educated and have a degree...

This, I think, is worth emphasizing. It's either a dishonest position he has adopted in order to try to make his pitch, or a flat denial of reality.

If you're Wong (B.Sc. Mechanical Engineering, Waterloo, fan fiction author), and you devote a section of your website to how you disagree with David Brin (B.S. Astrophysics, Caltech, M.A. Electrical Engineering, UCSD, Ph. D., Space Physics, UCSD, multiple award-winning science fiction novels, many dozens of published articles, various appointments), claiming only uneducated people disagree with you is not precisely a sound claim.

It wasn't even a sound claim when he was disagreeing with Graham Kennedy, who has about the same level of education as he does (physics education rather than mechanical engineering).

[Feldercarb]

I see Dr. Brin has a Ph.D in Space Science Philosophy, what is that exactly?

Edit: Could someone point me to the portion of his site dedicated to Brin? I don't recall nor can I find it.

[ILikeDeathNote]

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Brin.html

Oddly enough, in his "hate mail" section, as you can plainly see according to the URL.

[Feldercarb]

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Brin.html

Oddly enough, in his "hate mail" section, as you can plainly see according to the URL.

Thanks, oh and next time try not to respond to a request for info by being unpleasant.

Edit: Disregard the above, after re-reading that a few times I realized you where making a comment about the location of the article itself rather then my inability to find it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I see Dr. Brin has a Ph.D in Space Science Philosophy, what is that exactly?

Edit: Could someone point me to the portion of his site dedicated to Brin? I don't recall nor can I find it.

The degree is in Space Science - "Doctor of Philosophy" is the long way of saying Ph. D. What "space science" means can vary a little from place to place - it's somewhere in the physics/astronomy/engineering spectrum - although we might take a clue from the fact that he worked as a physics professor for a few years after getting that degree.

Oddly enough, in his "hate mail" section, as you can plainly see according to the URL.

Not very odd. The "Hate Mail" section is where you go to find Wong actually arguing with other people, and he wanted to get an argument with David Brin.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Edit: Disregard the above, after re-reading that a few times I realized you where making a comment about the location of the article itself rather then my inability to find it.

Correct.

[Feldercarb]

Reading the linked page, I really don't see anything in there that would pertain to either engineering or space science, it's not much more then the deconstruction of plays and novels we all did in high school English.

Keep in mind that I'm neither an engineer, English major or hold a Ph.D but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. ;)