ASVS/SDN Fanfiction

[Who is like God arbour]

"THERE... ARE... FOUR... LIGHTS!"

Bad example:

• • PICARD:
    • • One thing I didn't put in my report ... at the very end, he offered me a choice ... between a life of comfort ... or more torture ... all I had to do was say there were five lights.
    • • • Troi regards him for a brief moment.
    TROI:
    • • You didn't say it ...
    PICARD:
    • • No ... but I was going to. I was ready to tell him anything he wanted ... anything at all. But more than that, I was beginning to believe there were five lights.

[Who is like God arbour]

[...] the same man who resisted the Borg's assimilation into their collective enough that he was able to get a piece of critical information on how to defeat them to Data. [...]

That is a better example.

[Mike DiCenso]

In the EU, Jacen does turn to the Dark Side, but I suppose this was just a lucky guess on Wong's part. Anakin and Jacia actually perish as a result of Jacen's betrayal, which in turn leads up to the "Legacy" era (120+ years after the Battle of Endor).

Hey, just remember, even a broken clock is right twice a day. ;-)

As for Picard raping a woman...I just don't have anything to say other than what's already been said.

In addtion to that, Mith missed out on another important character mishandling in the story; Ben Sisko actually wanting to side with the Galactic Empire against the Rebellion and every other power in the galaxy.... This is supposed to be the same Ben Sisko who absolutely refused to accept the Jack Pack and Dr. Bashir's analysis on the Dominion War's outcome? Oh come on!
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

"THERE... ARE... FOUR... LIGHTS!"

Bad example:

• • PICARD:
    • • One thing I didn't put in my report ... at the very end, he offered me a choice ... between a life of comfort ... or more torture ... all I had to do was say there were five lights.
    • • • Troi regards him for a brief moment.
    TROI:
    • • You didn't say it ...
    PICARD:
    • • No ... but I was going to. I was ready to tell him anything he wanted ... anything at all. But more than that, I was beginning to believe there were five lights.

It's not such a bad example when you realize that Picard had been tortured for many days on end. Most people would have given in within minutes or hours under that kind of torture.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

WILGA, as Mike said, my example of Picard's willpower is valid, since he was tortured for days before even thinking of giving up, so that does shows he is not weak-willed...

[Who is like God arbour]

"THERE... ARE... FOUR... LIGHTS!"

Bad example:

• • PICARD:
    • • One thing I didn't put in my report ... at the very end, he offered me a choice ... between a life of comfort ... or more torture ... all I had to do was say there were five lights.
    • • • Troi regards him for a brief moment.
    TROI:
    • • You didn't say it ...
    PICARD:
    • • No ... but I was going to. I was ready to tell him anything he wanted ... anything at all. But more than that, I was beginning to believe there were five lights.

It's not such a bad example when you realize that Picard had been tortured for many days on end. Most people would have given in within minutes or hours under that kind of torture.
-Mike

Yes, but that was not said. Praeothmin has only quoted that one sentence as proof for Picard's strong mind. But this sentence is not the proof. He was, as he has said it, already broken.

The fact, that he has lasted so long before he was broken, is proof for his willpower. But that was not said.

[consequences]

Even given that, it still is a perversion of the character or Jean Luc Picard by saying that he is weak-minded enough to fall prey to Force manipulation powers so readily. This is the guy who was tortured for days, possibly weeks on end before he started to give in, and the same man who resisted the Borg's assimilation into their collective enough that he was able to get a piece of critical information on how to defeat them to Data.

This wasn't an all-out blatant attack on his will, or a brute force crushing of his soul under the onslaught of a hive-mind. This was an insidious use of his own feelings against him, so that his own will did most of the work of tearing down his defenses. If Picard was more accepting of his hatred of the Borg, it wouldn't have worked nearly as easily.

Of course, what everyone here is conveniently forgetting is that he was perfectly willing to direct the obliteration of the Federation Fleet at WOlf 359, and actively fight off a rescue attempt. It was only after he'd been recovered and a fair amount of effort to get throught to him that he was able to turn on the Collective.

I also find it funny Consequences that you were affected enough by what's being said here on this forum that you still feel it necessary to jump in and defend a mediocre piece of fankwank fiction. ;-)
-Mike

Consider it the straw that resulted in spinal repair surgery for a dromedary. Generally, I can predict the path of discussion here well enough that I don't feel the need to set the dance in motion. In this case, I knew that Chain of Command and BoBW would be brought up, and felt that the situation was significantly different enough to still warrant typing.

Besides, merely being a mediocre piece of fanwank fiction would still put it in the top 10-20% of literary efforts online. Don't make me post the link to Star Destroyers Rampant to prove my point. :P

Darn, now I feel dirty just typing that. :(

[ILikeDeathNote]

What's Star Destroyers Rampant?

If it was posted at SDN or ASVS I feel that it's fair game for this thread.

[consequences]

What's Star Destroyers Rampant?

If it was posted at SDN or ASVS I feel that it's fair game for this thread.

Garbage, written by vermin. It should be somewhere on the asvs fanfic archive.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Garbage, written by vermin. It should be somewhere on the asvs fanfic archive.

...I would take it it's not worth discussing then, needless to say.

[consequences]

Garbage, written by vermin. It should be somewhere on the asvs fanfic archive.

...I would take it it's not worth discussing then, needless to say.

Well, I'm personally refusing to post a link to it. But essentially, it's everything that people here complain about Conquest being, except without any of the trifling story elements to get in the way of pointless poorly written stomping. The author would periodically be given a hard time for it years later, right up to the point he was banned from SDN(for something entirely unrelated, hence 'vermin').

[Praeothmin]

Yes, but that was not said. Praeothmin has only quoted that one sentence as proof for Picard's strong mind. But this sentence is not the proof. He was, as he has said it, already broken.

The fact, that he has lasted so long before he was broken, is proof for his willpower. But that was not said.

That fact that you knew exactly what I was talking about, citing Picard's own words after the event, proves that you understood what I meant and you knew to which event I was referring to with those words...

Or hadn't you understood I was referring to the whole incident?

[Who is like God arbour]

Yes, but I'm not the measure of all things.

[Mike DiCenso]

Even given that, it still is a perversion of the character or Jean Luc Picard by saying that he is weak-minded enough to fall prey to Force manipulation powers so readily. This is the guy who was tortured for days, possibly weeks on end before he started to give in, and the same man who resisted the Borg's assimilation into their collective enough that he was able to get a piece of critical information on how to defeat them to Data.

This wasn't an all-out blatant attack on his will, or a brute force crushing of his soul under the onslaught of a hive-mind. This was an insidious use of his own feelings against him, so that his own will did most of the work of tearing down his defenses. If Picard was more accepting of his hatred of the Borg, it wouldn't have worked nearly as easily.

Of course, what everyone here is conveniently forgetting is that he was perfectly willing to direct the obliteration of the Federation Fleet at WOlf 359, and actively fight off a rescue attempt. It was only after he'd been recovered and a fair amount of effort to get throught to him that he was able to turn on the Collective.

Even if we were to accept what you say, the fact is it is at best a highly out of date version of Picard, who one might argue in ST:FC expunged or gained control over the demons of his Borg assimilation past at the end of the movie. In other words, for this easily manipulated Picard to exist at all the way he does in Wong's story, he could not have gone through any sort of character growth whatsoever. The story would have had to set itself before the Dominion War and before the events of ST:FC to have the slightest credibility.

As for your statement of willingness to lead the Borg. He did not. That is an outright lie of the events of BoBW that goes against everything in the story, including his sufficently successful resistance against them at the story's end which allowed Data and the E-D crew to defeat them. He was turned into Locutus unwillingly. A point made solidly in ST:FC. He never gave in. Was he scarred by the abduction and assimilation? Yes. Did he learn over time to get over it? Yes.

I also find it funny Consequences that you were affected enough by what's being said here on this forum that you still feel it necessary to jump in and defend a mediocre piece of fankwank fiction. ;-)
-Mike

Consider it the straw that resulted in spinal repair surgery for a dromedary. Generally, I can predict the path of discussion here well enough that I don't feel the need to set the dance in motion. In this case, I knew that Chain of Command and BoBW would be brought up, and felt that the situation was significantly different enough to still warrant typing.

Besides, merely being a mediocre piece of fanwank fiction would still put it in the top 10-20% of literary efforts online. Don't make me post the link to Star Destroyers Rampant to prove my point. :P

Darn, now I feel dirty just typing that. :(

Did also consider other possible points being brought up, Dr. Manhattan? Do much for your ability to prognosticate. Did you ever consider Picard's character arc in ST:FC, or Picard controlling his darker emotions in "The Gambit, Part II", which allowed him to defeat the power of the Stone of Gol? No? It shows that neither you nor Wong understand the character.

As for posting a link to the other story. Do your worst! I've suffered through readings of Marissa Picard and held onto my sanity! I double dare you to do it! DO IT! ;-)
-Mike

[consequences]

He may have been trying to resist before being recovered, but he wasn't accomplishing anything. And that's pretty much the point, he can throw off effects afterward(which is no small thing to be able to rebuild yourself after that kind of event), but while being directly hit with an outside mental influence, he has no special resistance.

And since this was a blatantly EU based fic, there's incidents where a single Dark Jedi could hold an entire bridge crew of a star destroyer simultaneously in thrall. If it were movies only, you'd have a point, with the addition of novels and other materials(even just what was published before Conquest was written), appealing to the baser emotions of even a strong-willed individual is extremely tame.


You mean ST:FC, where he gives his men blatantly suicidal orders, and ends up killing the Borg Queen with his bare hands? The only development explicitly shown there was that with sufficient bludgeoning to his skull, he was willing to not deliberately throw away the lives of his men for absolutely nothing(after ignoring the fact of their helplessness rubbed in his face, and that his normally highly aggressive and thoroughly trusted tactical commander was calling for a retreat). If anything, the means he chose to end the Queen still speak of a deep and abiding hatred, that can only be satisfied by the primal need to rend and tear. Naturally, he would repress that and act like he was better than the sort of primitives who would undertake such actions immediately afterward.

As for the Stone of Gol, if Worf could repress his violent emotions so as not to be killed by it, it wasn't that difficult. Worf has always been extremely emotional and easy to provoke when faced with a threat, insult, or challenge.