ASVS/SDN Fanfiction

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:13 pm

consequences wrote:You mean ST:FC, where he gives his men blatantly suicidal orders, and ends up killing the Borg Queen with his bare hands? The only development explicitly shown there was that with sufficient bludgeoning to his skull, he was willing to not deliberately throw away the lives of his men for absolutely nothing (after ignoring the fact of their helplessness rubbed in his face, and that his normally highly aggressive and thoroughly trusted tactical commander was calling for a retreat).
I guess that's one way of putting it. Another (and more accurate) way would be to say that Picard was blinded by his hate when it came to the Borg at first, but then Lily talked to him, which made him realize just how crazy he was acting, and as a result he let go of that hate. He grew as a character and finally left behind the burden the Borg had put on him.

That's character development in motion, and quite frankly one of the best scenes is Star Trek.
If anything, the means he chose to end the Queen still speak of a deep and abiding hatred, that can only be satisfied by the primal need to rend and tear. Naturally, he would repress that and act like he was better than the sort of primitives who would undertake such actions immediately afterward.
Or. Picard killing the Borg queen by snapping her neck could've been because... he had no other way of killing her?

Look, I realize that people on SDN are rather obsessive when it comes to trying to paint the Federation and everyone in it as crazy people who do nothing but thirst for blood and who're basically little better then rabid animals. Hell, one of the current running threads seems to be seriously debating whether the Federation is mind controlling its populace or whether they're all just gangsters in disguise. But at some point you have to realize that you're just being a damn idiot and everyone outside your little circle would treat you as such for saying the things you do. This is not some case where Picard 'rends and tears' at the Queen. He picks her head and spine up, and severs it with one quick move. It's a pretty bloody logical move by him.

If he'd started using the head/spine as a club, smashing it into the walls repeatedly while screaming and grunting, you'd have a point. But he doesn't. A quick swift kill is what he gives her.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:43 am

Consequences, I have to agree with l33telboi on this, and I have to wonder if you have really even watched the movie in question, or watched it recently.

As for Worf resisting the Stone of Gol, it's been known since "Heart of Glory" and "Redemption" among other episodes that Worf actually fairly controlled compared to many of his fellow Klingons. It's to his credit as well here that he is able to clear his mind of dangerous thoughts and emotions, which is more than Narik and Vekor were able to do against it.
-Mike

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Post by Mith » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:29 pm

consequences wrote:He may have been trying to resist before being recovered, but he wasn't accomplishing anything. And that's pretty much the point, he can throw off effects afterward(which is no small thing to be able to rebuild yourself after that kind of event), but while being directly hit with an outside mental influence, he has no special resistance.

And since this was a blatantly EU based fic, there's incidents where a single Dark Jedi could hold an entire bridge crew of a star destroyer simultaneously in thrall. If it were movies only, you'd have a point, with the addition of novels and other materials(even just what was published before Conquest was written), appealing to the baser emotions of even a strong-willed individual is extremely tame.


You mean ST:FC, where he gives his men blatantly suicidal orders, and ends up killing the Borg Queen with his bare hands? The only development explicitly shown there was that with sufficient bludgeoning to his skull, he was willing to not deliberately throw away the lives of his men for absolutely nothing(after ignoring the fact of their helplessness rubbed in his face, and that his normally highly aggressive and thoroughly trusted tactical commander was calling for a retreat). If anything, the means he chose to end the Queen still speak of a deep and abiding hatred, that can only be satisfied by the primal need to rend and tear. Naturally, he would repress that and act like he was better than the sort of primitives who would undertake such actions immediately afterward.
It's a really bad fanfic. He turned this from being his pet universe beating another into raping of what Star Trek and its characters are all about. Picard doesn't comprimise his morals and he sure as hell wouldn't rape someone. Nor is he stupid enough to not even realize that somebody was fucking with him. And no, saying that this sorry sack of shit that the author pulled out of his ass is nothing but a slap to the face of literature itself. Fuck, I'd rather read Twilight.

When you so horribly defile the source material that you've used to make your fanfic, you are horribly off track and an even worse writer. What Wong did was disgusting, in both writing style and simple principal.
As for the Stone of Gol, if Worf could repress his violent emotions so as not to be killed by it, it wasn't that difficult. Worf has always been extremely emotional and easy to provoke when faced with a threat, insult, or challenge.
Yes, which explains that whole character point in DS9 about how Worf has a great deal of self control, which originated from the fact that when he was a wild child, he accidently killed another human kid while playing soccer. Worf only grows angery when his honor or that of his friends have been challenged, as well as perhaps people he knows being in danger. This of course, compared to a dark sith lord whose practically drooling at the mouth to kill Picard. From what I understood, Wong didn't even have the sith clear his mind...he simply survived it, mocking Picard at how such a old relic couldn't kill him.

But that doesn't really surprise me given the fact that he's already defiled everything else he's touched. It's really gotten past the point of no return, hasn't it? He claims the UFP to be evil, incompetent, and pretty much anything else he can get away with. But, I suppose that's what comes from having your own site where your closest buddies stroke your ego for coming up with two bit arguments that have been turned into nothing but a puff of smoke with the Clone Wars, hasn't it?

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:55 pm

Mith wrote: It's a really bad fanfic. He turned this from being his pet universe beating another into raping of what Star Trek and its characters are all about. Picard doesn't comprimise his morals and he sure as hell wouldn't rape someone. Nor is he stupid enough to not even realize that somebody was fucking with him. And no, saying that this sorry sack of shit that the author pulled out of his ass is nothing but a slap to the face of literature itself. Fuck, I'd rather read Twilight.

When you so horribly defile the source material that you've used to make your fanfic, you are horribly off track and an even worse writer. What Wong did was disgusting, in both writing style and simple principal.
Well, the real flaw with the whole story and the characterizations is that it is more than obvious that Wong has never really watched TNG, much less DS9 and Voyager. But he tries to write it as though he knows everything about the shows and the characters, likely getting his information from his cronies, and some internet sources, and then mixing it all together into his version of what he thinks it is, or what he wants others to think about TNG-era Trek.

I think one thing in your review you forgot to really touch on is the bad attempts at placing himself into the story through at least two different characters. Can anyone spot the Gary Stu avatars of Wong in there?
-Mike

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Post by Mith » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:24 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mith wrote: It's a really bad fanfic. He turned this from being his pet universe beating another into raping of what Star Trek and its characters are all about. Picard doesn't comprimise his morals and he sure as hell wouldn't rape someone. Nor is he stupid enough to not even realize that somebody was fucking with him. And no, saying that this sorry sack of shit that the author pulled out of his ass is nothing but a slap to the face of literature itself. Fuck, I'd rather read Twilight.

When you so horribly defile the source material that you've used to make your fanfic, you are horribly off track and an even worse writer. What Wong did was disgusting, in both writing style and simple principal.
Well, the real flaw with the whole story and the characterizations is that it is more than obvious that Wong has never really watched TNG, much less DS9 and Voyager. But he tries to write it as though he knows everything about the shows and the characters, likely getting his information from his cronies, and some internet sources, and then mixing it all together into his version of what he thinks it is, or what he wants others to think about TNG-era Trek.

I think one thing in your review you forgot to really touch on is the bad attempts at placing himself into the story through at least two different characters. Can anyone spot the Gary Stu avatars of Wong in there?
-Mike
I'm not familiar with any of the characters, but if I had to guess, probably the Jedi leader who pwned Commander Bitch and the admiral that was in charge of the fleet that invaded the Alpha-Beta Quadrant.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:58 am

Admiral Kanos is most certainly one of them; a projection of Wong as Admiral Thrawn. Chang appears to not be Wong per se, but rather is Wong's idea of another Versus participant named Peter Chung, and none too flattering as Peter was one of the early pro-Trek debaters. Ruk is definitely a Wong puppet, including his very un-Jedi like reactions. There are a few others, but they play somewhat minor roles as simple mouth-pieces for Wong.
-Mike

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Post by Enosh » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:51 am

Mith wrote: But that doesn't really surprise me given the fact that he's already defiled everything else he's touched. It's really gotten past the point of no return, hasn't it? He claims the UFP to be evil, incompetent, and pretty much anything else he can get away with.
I usualy have no problems with SDN and wong, but this one is realy kinda stupid, I realy can't understand why he needed to spin the whole point of the federation to "zomg they are all mind controlling the population and putting funny stuff into the watter" that's realy some of the bigest bullshit I have read in quite a while and I just "facepalmed" when i was reading it.

and for what porpuse? realy I don't know, whats the point of painting the federation as some sick opressive regime that is mindcotrolling the population?

and looks like I realy need to read "conquest" I asume that's the fanfic everyone is talking about^^

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Post by Mith » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:33 pm

Mike DiCenso
Admiral Kanos is most certainly one of them; a projection of Wong as Admiral Thrawn. Chang appears to not be Wong per se, but rather is Wong's idea of another Versus participant named Peter Chung, and none too flattering as Peter was one of the early pro-Trek debaters. Ruk is definitely a Wong puppet, including his very un-Jedi like reactions. There are a few others, but they play somewhat minor roles as simple mouth-pieces for Wong.
-Mike
Admiral Kanos was pretty apparent I think, but he's the thing that sort of tipped off Ruk being too (even though I have zero knowledge of the EU). The reason is due to the way they act; they both treat the Federation officers are immoral scum in their own way, they just have a different method of going about it. Didn't know Chang was a cheap shot through.
Enosh wrote:
I usualy have no problems with SDN and wong, but this one is realy kinda stupid, I realy can't understand why he needed to spin the whole point of the federation to "zomg they are all mind controlling the population and putting funny stuff into the watter" that's realy some of the bigest bullshit I have read in quite a while and I just "facepalmed" when i was reading it.

and for what porpuse? realy I don't know, whats the point of painting the federation as some sick opressive regime that is mindcotrolling the population?

and looks like I realy need to read "conquest" I asume that's the fanfic everyone is talking about^^
Well, it's probably for the reason that his pet franchise needs to have complete and utter superiority. Yes, in his mind he's won the debate on what woudl happen if we compared their military technology, but that's not enough for him. He wants scientific superiority in every aspect. But even that fails at some point. But then it comes down to the fact that when you compare both, Star Trek is simply better in the area of value. Star Wars is great and revolutionized the movie industry, but his stories and characters are shallow and taken from another source, even if placed in a great setting. It's pretty much just all show and no substance. Trek in this respect, has until recently, been the polar opposite. They've worked with much smaller budgets and worse special effects for a great deal of the time, but the substance of the show is excellent. You have episodes like Inner Light, City on the Edge of Forever, All Good Things, The Void, Sacrifice of Angels, In the Pale Moon Light, Homefront-Paradise Lost, Deja Q, Q Who, and so much more. True, some of their movies like ST I, Search for Spock, Final Frontier, Generations, and Insurrection weren't all that great (although only STI was truly unwatchable in my opinion...just too damn long), but there have been fantastic movies such as Wrath of Khan, Voyage Home, Undiscovered Country, and First Contact were all great movies. Hell, despite the horrible glaring flaws in ST X, I'm willing to at least agree with Confused Matthew that it did have strong points, and those strong points were fucking amazing. The only thing that truly ruined it was the ending and the rape scene (not to studios; we don't want to see Troi raped again. 1) she's married. 2) she's too old. 3) that's just disgusting...no really).

And look at Star Wars.

It has...A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. That's the high point of the movie series. Return of the Jedi was alright, but the Ewoks would ruin it for any hardcore fan, especially a warsie. Phantom Menace was just a slap in the face, followed by Lucas putting his wang on their shoulder with Attack of the Clones, and finally finishing it off with something that didn't totally want to make you vomit...but still sucked, Revenge of the Sith. Aside from that, all you have is the new cartoon series, which is something they probably hate even more.

1) Quality

The Quality of CW is not as great as anyone probably would have wanted given that it's Lucas Arts and this should be an epic war. The CGI is just passible, but it probably isn't the wors.

2) Low Firepower and Instances

Possibly the most aggrivating ones for them thus far, the firepower of the series is not what their collective delusion invented for themselves. The firepower is so low in some cases, that I'm starting to think that Lucas really does see them as just giant space navy ships that fight.

3) It's a kid's show

This I honestly believe pisses them off more than anything. Although George has clearly put forth that Star Wars is for kids (at least now), they can't really let that work for them. Star Wars is after all, serious business...and I do mean that. Every Warsie treats the Empire like it's some sort of super advanced, hardcore series, but in reality, it's just a space opera for kids...and at least half of it sucked.

In other words, Wong treats ST the way he did because it made him feel better about his sad, pathetic little sci-fi series that just isn't what he wants it to be.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:42 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: Admiral Kanos is most certainly one of them; a projection of Wong as Admiral Thrawn. Chang appears to not be Wong per se, but rather is Wong's idea of another Versus participant named Peter Chung, and none too flattering as Peter was one of the early pro-Trek debaters. Ruk is definitely a Wong puppet, including his very un-Jedi like reactions. There are a few others, but they play somewhat minor roles as simple mouth-pieces for Wong.
-Mike
Mith wrote: Admiral Kanos was pretty apparent I think, but he's the thing that sort of tipped off Ruk being too (even though I have zero knowledge of the EU). The reason is due to the way they act; they both treat the Federation officers are immoral scum in their own way, they just have a different method of going about it. Didn't know Chang was a cheap shot through.
There is a Kanos in the EU, but he's not necessarily the same person as Admiral Kanos who is ment to more be a replacement for Admiral Thrawn and to represent Wong's idealization of himself as an imperial officer in his fanfic story.

As far as I can research, there is no character by the name of Ruk in the SW EU.
-Mike

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:37 pm

Ruk was a Noghri, a race enslaved by the Empire, and who were Vader's personnal commandos.

Ruk was also Thrawn's personnal bodyguard, and he betrayed Thrawn after learning that the Empire had been poisoning their planet for years so they could keep them under Imperial control.

All part of the Timothy Zahn books.

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Post by GStone » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:17 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:There is a Kanos in the EU, but he's not necessarily the same person as Admiral Kanos who is ment to more be a replacement for Admiral Thrawn and to represent Wong's idealization of himself as an imperial officer in his fanfic story.
"Kir Kanos was an Emperor's Royal Guard and the final loyal member of the guard after their ultimate betrayal at Yinchorr by their fellow guardsman Carnor Jax. After swearing an oath to hunt down the traitor and bring him to justice, Kanos became the most wanted man in the galaxy, after a massive bounty was put on his head by the Imperial Remnant. However, his skills helped him stay alive, and he eventually caught up with Jax and engaged him in a final duel. Kanos slew the would-be Emperor, avenging his brothers."

I can totally see him think of himself this way. But, you'd think that if he feels Kanos is the idealized version of himself, why doesn't he at least try to get more fit? The photo of him on his site doesn't look anything like Kanos. My brother works to support 3 kids and a wife that has a part-time photography job at the local mall where she does family portraits and kids and he's just finished his masters in the hard sciences (I think it was physics) recently and it looking to start his PhD soon and he keeps himself in better shape than Wong. And he currently works as a computer programmer. The only thing Wong has on him is more hair.
2) Low Firepower and Instances

Possibly the most aggrivating ones for them thus far, the firepower of the series is not what their collective delusion invented for themselves. The firepower is so low in some cases, that I'm starting to think that Lucas really does see them as just giant space navy ships that fight.
I've seen better security tech in real life government buildings and military stations. What happened to security cameras and passive motion detectors?

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:29 am

Praeothmin wrote:Ruk was a Noghri, a race enslaved by the Empire, and who were Vader's personnal commandos.

Ruk was also Thrawn's personnal bodyguard, and he betrayed Thrawn after learning that the Empire had been poisoning their planet for years so they could keep them under Imperial control.

All part of the Timothy Zahn books.

No, that is "Rukh", not "Ruk". Other than they are both reptilianoids, they are not the same character, and whatever else he is, Ruk is not a Noghri.
-Mike

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:36 am

GStone wrote: I can totally see him think of himself this way. But, you'd think that if he feels Kanos is the idealized version of himself, why doesn't he at least try to get more fit? The photo of him on his site doesn't look anything like Kanos. My brother works to support 3 kids and a wife that has a part-time photography job at the local mall where she does family portraits and kids and he's just finished his masters in the hard sciences (I think it was physics) recently and it looking to start his PhD soon and he keeps himself in better shape than Wong. And he currently works as a computer programmer. The only thing Wong has on him is more hair.


Since when have Gary Stu/Marty Stu/Mary Sues ever necessarily looked anything like the person which they are representing? I mean, look at Stephen Ratliff's Mary Sue of Mary Sues... Marissa Picard. It's not even a male character! Gender and physical appearances modified to suit the whim of the bad fanfic author's desire!
-Mike

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:57 am

Mith wrote:
Well, it's probably for the reason that his pet franchise needs to have complete and utter superiority. Yes, in his mind he's won the debate on what woudl happen if we compared their military technology, but that's not enough for him. He wants scientific superiority in every aspect. But even that fails at some point. But then it comes down to the fact that when you compare both, Star Trek is simply better in the area of value. Star Wars is great and revolutionized the movie industry, but his stories and characters are shallow and taken from another source, even if placed in a great setting. It's pretty much just all show and no substance. Trek in this respect, has until recently, been the polar opposite. They've worked with much smaller budgets and worse special effects for a great deal of the time, but the substance of the show is excellent. You have episodes like Inner Light, City on the Edge of Forever, All Good Things, The Void, Sacrifice of Angels, In the Pale Moon Light, Homefront-Paradise Lost, Deja Q, Q Who, and so much more. True, some of their movies like ST I, Search for Spock, Final Frontier, Generations, and Insurrection weren't all that great (although only STI was truly unwatchable in my opinion...just too damn long), but there have been fantastic movies such as Wrath of Khan, Voyage Home, Undiscovered Country, and First Contact were all great movies. Hell, despite the horrible glaring flaws in ST X, I'm willing to at least agree with Confused Matthew that it did have strong points, and those strong points were fucking amazing. The only thing that truly ruined it was the ending and the rape scene (not to studios; we don't want to see Troi raped again. 1) she's married. 2) she's too old. 3) that's just disgusting...no really).

And look at Star Wars.

It has...A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. That's the high point of the movie series. Return of the Jedi was alright, but the Ewoks would ruin it for any hardcore fan, especially a warsie. Phantom Menace was just a slap in the face, followed by Lucas putting his wang on their shoulder with Attack of the Clones, and finally finishing it off with something that didn't totally want to make you vomit...but still sucked, Revenge of the Sith. Aside from that, all you have is the new cartoon series, which is something they probably hate even more.

1) Quality

The Quality of CW is not as great as anyone probably would have wanted given that it's Lucas Arts and this should be an epic war. The CGI is just passible, but it probably isn't the wors.

2) Low Firepower and Instances

Possibly the most aggrivating ones for them thus far, the firepower of the series is not what their collective delusion invented for themselves. The firepower is so low in some cases, that I'm starting to think that Lucas really does see them as just giant space navy ships that fight.

3) It's a kid's show

This I honestly believe pisses them off more than anything. Although George has clearly put forth that Star Wars is for kids (at least now), they can't really let that work for them. Star Wars is after all, serious business...and I do mean that. Every Warsie treats the Empire like it's some sort of super advanced, hardcore series, but in reality, it's just a space opera for kids...and at least half of it sucked.

In other words, Wong treats ST the way he did because it made him feel better about his sad, pathetic little sci-fi series that just isn't what he wants it to be.
What I really don't understand is why Wong has adopted someone else's franchise as "his" pet franchise, even going so far as to adopt Mary Sue personas in the Star Wars universe.

Now I've talked about this subject before in my "Are Warsies trying to hijack Star Wars?" topics. But if they're not that satisfied with how the franchise is going, why don't they try to create their own sci-fi universe?

I suppose it's easier said than done, though.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:35 am

ILikeDeathNote wrote: What I really don't understand is why Wong has adopted someone else's franchise as "his" pet franchise, even going so far as to adopt Mary Sue personas in the Star Wars universe.

Now I've talked about this subject before in my "Are Warsies trying to hijack Star Wars?" topics. But if they're not that satisfied with how the franchise is going, why don't they try to create their own sci-fi universe?

I suppose it's easier said than done, though.
For all the effort the Rabid Warsies have put into making up power levels and details of their wanked out version of the SW verse, they may just as well have gone on and created their own original story. I mean, other than names and basic settings, there is nothing really in common between their SW and George Lucas'.
-Mike

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