SDN's relationship with SB and SFJ

[ILikeDeathNote]

If you're worried about 4chan denizens coming and trolling with kiddie porn, you sic the federales on them, and also start banning whole IP ranges if they proxy. I'd think there would be less of a response time problem on SDN than it is here, since we only have one staff member (me) who averages less than two posts per day. Granted, SDN also goes out of its way to generate a lot more ill-will than SFJ does, which provides motivation for people to come vandalize the board, and SDN is also very tightly controlled with lots of rules, which also motivates trolls and vandals.

You're forgetting the simple (if not sad) fact that SDN is simply a larger board than us. At least we can afford the advantage of anonymity, which is a pretty good shield against, well, "anonymous." SDN's a big enough site to attract anons from the chan sites, not to mention has a large population of anons within its own user base.

As for here, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only anime fan here.

The wiki may be mockery, but I don't find it terribly amusing (not many decent jokes, and I never found the irony of a badly written article claiming someone else is stupid to be that funny after the first twenty times), and the SDN community seems to take it too seriously as well. If I'm looking for a laugh, I'll go read something funny, like a webcomic.

The ImperialWiki is obviously an attempt to mimic the chan wiki Encyclopaedia Dramatica (which pretty much derives all of its humor from shock value, and if I'm not mistaken isn't even endorsed by Moot) just with a strict Vs. Debate twist to it, while at the same time closely following the formula for SDN's own hate mail page.

and this contrast is quite possibly because of the adverse reactions anti-Traviss Saxtonites provoked from various LucasWhatever employees.

I'd like to know what these LucasLicensing LLC (if you want to get technical) employees have to do with it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I'm sure that's all been done. The board was only disrupted for perhaps an hour thanks to the use of the report button and members turning off images in posts.

Not surprised. Incidentally, I'm sort of curious now - could someone give me a total number of staff on SDN?

I think it's more that (in my case anyways) that her reaction to the criticism was over the top.

It was pretty clear she hadn't been adequately prepared for dealing with a vigorous fanbase. In the land of "Greedo shot first!" and "He killed Chewie off!!! Nooo!!!" you really need to anticipate that some pretty vociferous folks will come out of the woodwork at the oddest times, passionate about the oddest details.

Really, Traviss was best served by ignoring them and letting third parties (e.g., SW.com moderation staff) dealing with them - which she eventually did. Perhaps if she were more experienced in the field, she wouldn't have taken so long to figure it out. City of Pearl (her debut novel) came out in 2004, and her first Star Wars book also came out in 2004.

Saxtonite hostility towards her positive reception among other fans - i.e., Fandalorians - was nearly immediate, and the "Talifan" saga started in 2005 at the very latest. Maybe even 2004 with private correspondence that hasn't been published by either side, to gauge from the tone of the opening. I've watched the "Talifan" video. I've discussed the whole affair with Mr. Poe (mostly on, of all places, ST.com).

My impression remains - after reviewing all of Mr. Poe's story published on his website - that Traviss got a hostile reaction from Saxtonites early on, made the mistake of actually responding to them, and then lost her temper a couple times before wising up (probably on advice from others at LL).

Poe seemed not to realize how [in]appropriate anything he said or did was. Judged by the standards of SDN, after all, it was all appropriate. To Poe, her fuming frustratedly on her own livejournal about "certain fans" and wanting to rip their throats out was equivalent to producing a violent-fantasy CGI video that barely even paid lip service to anonymizing its object.

Never mind the one requires just a few minutes of angry posting on a site only a few fans would ever stir themselves to look at (an author's LJ), which of course she later regretted and removed from public view, while the other required hours of work and was promoted as widely as possible.

Now imagine, for a minute, that instead of Poe leading a charge of vitriolic angry fans saying misogynistic things (since that's what they do when it's a woman they disagree with) and getting themselves in deep crap with the moderators, that it had been just people like me disagreeing with Karen Traviss. Polite, reasonable, willing to discuss and exchange information without belittling or insulting her.

Worst case scenario? If she's the person Poe claims she is, she loses her temper anyway. I keep mine. End result? She looks bad, I look good - relatively speaking, at least - and the whole of LucasCorp wouldn't feel the need to circle the wagons around her in response to crazed fans attacking her.

And IIRC Saxton had recieved a research offer or other employment in his actual field of study and took them up on it.

Probably better for him. It's never a good sign when an academic is more famous for a hobby than their "real" work.

At any rate, after seeing the crap that was shoveled out for The Force Unleashed I really want nothing else to do with SW. It's a cool set of movies but there's other sci-fi out there.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Computer games sometimes have pretty bad stories behind them. I expect good things to come out under the Star Wars label from time to time in the future, and I will cheerfully appreciate them as they come my way.

I will spend much more time on other science fiction than Star Wars and Star Trek put together, of course, as I always have.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'm not sure what would qualify as sci-fi anymore besides the old classics, WH40K is basically Tolkien in space, SW certainly has fantasy elements, and Trek has its far share of magicky stuff as well. Personally I'm not to picky, heck WH40K has demons in it. As long as the story is interesting I'll give it a go. It just seems lately that the more popular sci-fi (regardless of how we personally class it) is suffering from burnout.

Very little out there is what would be considered "hard sci-fi". The movie and novel "2001: A Space Odyssey" would be hard sci-fi (you might argue otherwise), if you took out the element of the all-powerful god-like aliens, and left in the rest of the story.

Star Trek has been closer to the space opera genere than to hard sci-fi, dumping the hard science in favor of characterization and storytelling.

"Planetes", both the manga and anime are very distinctly hard sci-fi, though the anime goes into the technical details better.

"Firefly" and nBSG are in their own little realm: naturalistic sci-fi. Elements of space opera combined with some from hard sci-fi.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

As for here, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only anime fan here.

No, you're not the only anime or manga fan here. ;-)
-Mike

[l33telboi]

What? The Force Unleashed is tons better then the average novel out there. Granted The Force Unleashed novelization reads way too much like a game, but the story in the game is good. It also features some of the best characters and locations I've seen in a long while.

But I suppose that could also be because I generally consider SW better suited for the visual medium. It doesn't translate well to text. I've at least yet to read anything managing to capture the Star Wars feel when it comes to novels.

[The Corporal]

What? The Force Unleashed is tons better then the average novel out there. Granted The Force Unleashed novelization reads way too much like a game, but the story in the game is good. It also features some of the best characters and locations I've seen in a long while.

But I suppose that could also be because I generally consider SW better suited for the visual medium. It doesn't translate well to text. I've at least yet to read anything managing to capture the Star Wars feel when it comes to novels.

I mean the actual gameplay and appearance itself. It just seems like God of War in space.

Not surprised. Incidentally, I'm sort of curious now - could someone give me a total number of staff on SDN?

Including senators?

It was pretty clear she hadn't been adequately prepared for dealing with a vigorous fanbase. In the land of "Greedo shot first!" and "He killed Chewie off!!! Nooo!!!" you really need to anticipate that some pretty vociferous folks will come out of the woodwork at the oddest times, passionate about the oddest details.

Really, Traviss was best served by ignoring them and letting third parties (e.g., SW.com moderation staff) dealing with them - which she eventually did. Perhaps if she were more experienced in the field, she wouldn't have taken so long to figure it out. City of Pearl (her debut novel) came out in 2004, and her first Star Wars book also came out in 2004.

Saxtonite hostility towards her positive reception among other fans - i.e., Fandalorians - was nearly immediate, and the "Talifan" saga started in 2005 at the very latest. Maybe even 2004 with private correspondence that hasn't been published by either side, to gauge from the tone of the opening. I've watched the "Talifan" video. I've discussed the whole affair with Mr. Poe (mostly on, of all places, ST.com).

My impression remains - after reviewing all of Mr. Poe's story published on his website - that Traviss got a hostile reaction from Saxtonites early on, made the mistake of actually responding to them, and then lost her temper a couple times before wising up (probably on advice from others at LL).

Poe seemed not to realize how [in]appropriate anything he said or did was. Judged by the standards of SDN, after all, it was all appropriate. To Poe, her fuming frustratedly on her own livejournal about "certain fans" and wanting to rip their throats out was equivalent to producing a violent-fantasy CGI video that barely even paid lip service to anonymizing its object.

Never mind the one requires just a few minutes of angry posting on a site only a few fans would ever stir themselves to look at (an author's LJ), which of course she later regretted and removed from public view, while the other required hours of work and was promoted as widely as possible.

Now imagine, for a minute, that instead of Poe leading a charge of vitriolic angry fans saying misogynistic things (since that's what they do when it's a woman they disagree with) and getting themselves in deep crap with the moderators, that it had been just people like me disagreeing with Karen Traviss. Polite, reasonable, willing to discuss and exchange information without belittling or insulting her.

Worst case scenario? If she's the person Poe claims she is, she loses her temper anyway. I keep mine. End result? She looks bad, I look good - relatively speaking, at least - and the whole of LucasCorp wouldn't feel the need to circle the wagons around her in response to crazed fans attacking her.

Is LucasArts circling the wagons? I haven't been paying attention to this for a while now but I do recall the fellow's reaction that killed of Chewie, which was basically a shrug and a "I appreciate your devotion but he was the only one I was allowed to kill".

Probably better for him. It's never a good sign when an academic is more famous for a hobby than their "real" work.

Honestly, I couldn't name more than three "famous" scientists anyway. It's not like a lot of their work attracts public interest.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Computer games sometimes have pretty bad stories behind them. I expect good things to come out under the Star Wars label from time to time in the future, and I will cheerfully appreciate them as they come my way.

I will spend much more time on other science fiction than Star Wars and Star Trek put together, of course, as I always have.

Oh it isn't the story, that's no more silly than the other games. It was the actual gameplay and appearance of it. That might be because it's a PS2 though.

I'm still going to give the coming TV show a try though, just because there is so much potential for interesting things.

[Mr. Oragahn]

But I suppose that could also be because I generally consider SW better suited for the visual medium. It doesn't translate well to text. I've at least yet to read anything managing to capture the Star Wars feel when it comes to novels.

SW really relies on visuals. When you read a good SW novel, you imagine things the way you've been used to see them in the film.
But this will apply to the vast majority of fictional universes I think.

As for the whole satire on vs debate thing, SDN is way too implicated to be the smart and objective party that would know how to convey a sense of well founded critic. No one should buy it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Including senators?

How complicated is this going to get? If there are a lot of different offices, you might have to explain some of them to me for the counts to make sense.

Is LucasArts circling the wagons? I haven't been paying attention to this for a while now but I do recall the fellow's reaction that killed of Chewie, which was basically a shrug and a "I appreciate your devotion but he was the only one I was allowed to kill".

I would say that SW.com (& cetera) did (past tense) "circle the wagons," so to speak, in defense of Traviss when she was under attack by Poe et al. Even to those on staff who might have disagreed with her, defending a productive author against personal attack by a bunch of whackjob fans egging each other on is more important than the actual material at hand.

Honestly, I couldn't name more than three "famous" scientists anyway. It's not like a lot of their work attracts public interest.

It's relative.

Do some Google searches and you'll see what I mean. One of the top ten "Curtis Saxton" hits is for what appears to be a different Curtis Saxton, a graphic designer; three even remotely relate to his being an academic, one being his homepage (which, strangely, talks more about his SW books than his research), while the rest are SW related. The next couple pages show only 1-2 astrophysics related hits per page, talking a lot more about Star Wars books.

I did a quick Google on Lisa Randall (theoretical physicist, Harvard) to compare. It's full of bios on her as a physicist, books she's written on her topic, and people interviewing her. She's famous for being an academic, and you actually get a very good idea of what her specialty is just from reading the first two pages of Google search blurbs.

Oh it isn't the story, that's no more silly than the other games. It was the actual gameplay and appearance of it. That might be because it's a PS2 though.

I'm still going to give the coming TV show a try though, just because there is so much potential for interesting things.

I haven't played it, but a friend gave me different reviews for it on different consoles. I think he had the Wii and Xbox versions.

[The Corporal]

How complicated is this going to get? If there are a lot of different offices, you might have to explain some of them to me for the counts to make sense.

There are 13 moderators listed, plus Darth Wong. Six of those are listed as global. There's a bunch of senators but they really only advise on board policy.

I would say that SW.com (& cetera) did (past tense) "circle the wagons," so to speak, in defense of Traviss when she was under attack by Poe et al. Even to those on staff who might have disagreed with her, defending a productive author against personal attack by a bunch of whackjob fans egging each other on is more important than the actual material at hand.

Well, I would expect that the companys staff would defend their fellow employee. Is that not what your supposed to do?

It's relative.

Do some Google searches and you'll see what I mean. One of the top ten "Curtis Saxton" hits is for what appears to be a different Curtis Saxton, a graphic designer; three even remotely relate to his being an academic, one being his homepage (which, strangely, talks more about his SW books than his research), while the rest are SW related. The next couple pages show only 1-2 astrophysics related hits per page, talking a lot more about Star Wars books.

Well I'm not sure what he does in regards to his professional work but I do know that he's never made a secret of his interest in SW. So I don't find that really surprising.

I did a quick Google on Lisa Randall (theoretical physicist, Harvard) to compare. It's full of bios on her as a physicist, books she's written on her topic, and people interviewing her. She's famous for being an academic, and you actually get a very good idea of what her specialty is just from reading the first two pages of Google search blurbs.

Ahh, thank you.

I haven't played it, but a friend gave me different reviews for it on different consoles. I think he had the Wii and Xbox versions.

My son got it for xmas. I may rent it for xbox/ps3 later on and see if it's any better.

[ILikeDeathNote]

As for here, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only anime fan here.

No, you're not the only anime or manga fan here. ;-)
-Mike

My point being is that there appears to be a much more vocal and "hardcore" anime fanbase at SDN, and chances are a hardcore anime fan who's very vocal on the 'net will be an anon as well. Chances are, someone either linked to the chans from SDN, or blabbed about SDN on the chans (you do NOT blab about other message boards on the chan sites and you do NOT link to a chan site from another message board, as the words after the following parenthesis will show, and this is why I go so far as to simply refer to such sites only in the collective sense, as "chans") which in turn invited a whole bunch of anons to SDN for an impromptu invasion, for the lulz.

Because Starfleet Jedi lacks such a vocal fanbase, we have yet to attrach such an anon invasion (not yet at least). And no blabbing about it on the chan sites and not linking to the chan sites in posts will help keep it that way :)

[Mike DiCenso]

As for here, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only anime fan here.

No, you're not the only anime or manga fan here. ;-)
-Mike

My point being is that there appears to be a much more vocal and "hardcore" anime fanbase at SDN, and chances are a hardcore anime fan who's very vocal on the 'net will be an anon as well. .

That's because they are more numerous there, regardless. As for being vocal, because there aren't many discussions concerning anime or manga on this site, I have little reason to bother. I was toying with the idea of starting a "EVA-01 versus Imperial AT-AT" thread, but I wasn't sure anyone would know enough about Neon Genesis Evangelion to participate.

Because Starfleet Jedi lacks such a vocal fanbase, we have yet to attrach such an anon invasion (not yet at least). And no blabbing about it on the chan sites and not linking to the chan sites in posts will help keep it that way :)

Probably not likely to as we're not actively out to provoke others. Only SDN seems to get it's collective panties in a twist over us, even though they try (poorly) to pretend otherwise.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I would say that SW.com (& cetera) did (past tense) "circle the wagons," so to speak, in defense of Traviss when she was under attack by Poe et al. Even to those on staff who might have disagreed with her, defending a productive author against personal attack by a bunch of whackjob fans egging each other on is more important than the actual material at hand.

Well, I would expect that the company's staff would defend their fellow employee. Is that not what your supposed to do?

Sure, but I think the point that JMS is trying to make is that the intensive defense effort would not likely have occurred if the Saxtonite/SDN talifan attacks not occurred with the unnecessary vitriol that they did. Not only is the EU being retconned now for lower firepower and power generation, but it almost seems like Lucas himself is making a concerted effort to show SW tech in the TCW CGI TV series as being very low-power, too.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only anime fan here.

Clearly there are more of us here than I had thought. ^__^

[Jedi Master Spock]

There are 13 moderators listed, plus Darth Wong. Six of those are listed as global. There's a bunch of senators but they really only advise on board policy.

OK, so this might sound like a really odd question, and you don't need to feel obliged to make the calculations (anyone with SDN membership can access the data to answer this, so if someone else feels like doing the work for this, feel free):

What percentage of the board's posting activity comes from mod/admins (i.e., those 14 people, including Wong/Admiral Kanos), and what from Senators?

I've been wondering if that might actually be a good size-neutral metric for how closely watched a board is.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Sure, but I think the point that JMS is trying to make is that the intensive defense effort would not likely have occurred if the Saxtonite/SDN talifan attacks not occurred with the unnecessary vitriol that they did. Not only is the EU being retconned now for lower firepower and power generation, but it almost seems like Lucas himself is making a concerted effort to show SW tech in the TCW CGI TV series as being very low-power, too.
-Mike

Hmmm. You're almost making it sound as if Lucas is doing this intentionally just to spite the Vs. community, particularly the Wars side.


I'm much more willing to believe that it's just a result of apathy for strict firepower figures in favor of what seems more "neat" for storytelling purposes at the time, whether that apathy comes from Lucas himself or the actual show runners.