SDN's relationship with SB and SFJ

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Estrecca
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Post by Estrecca » Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:37 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:What percentage of the board's posting activity comes from mod/admins (i.e., those 14 people, including Wong/Admiral Kanos), and what from Senators?

I've been wondering if that might actually be a good size-neutral metric for how closely watched a board is.
-Administrators

Darth Wong: 2.3% / Admiral Kanos: 0.09%
Capsaicin: >0.01% (less than 250 posts total)
Ozymandias: >0.01% (325)
Son of the Suns: 0.06% / David: 0.14%
The Wookiee: 0.06% / Dalton: 0.63%

Total: ~3.28%

-Supermods

Pablo Sanchez: 0.24%
Alyeska: 0.53%
Colonel Olrik: 0.22%
Durandal: 0.66%
Edi: 0.29%
fgalkin: 0.44%
Frank Hipper: 0.45%
Ghost Rider: 0.94%
Grand Admiral Thrawn: 0.21%
LadyTevar: 0.49%
Lagmonster: 0.18%
Master of Ossus: 0.62%
Mr Bean: 0.57%
Necronlord: 0.83%
RedImperator: 0.54%
SirNitram: 0.98%
Stravo: 0.46%
Vympel: 0.89%
Zaia: 0.52%

Total: ~10.06% (if I haven't screwed up a simple addition).

-Forum Mods:

Admiral Valdemar: 1.10%
Beowulf: 0.31%
Keevan_Colton: 0.37%

Total: ~1.78%

There are also a bunch of minimods that keep order within their respective private forums/usergroups.

As for the Senators, most of their "staff" activity is contained within the Imperial Senate forum that has 343 threads and 8356 replies, with 51 threads and 1846 replies coming from the plebeian "Hall of Commons" subforum.

In a board with well over two and a half million posts, the Senate is not terribly significant from the perspective of pure posting volume.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:39 pm

So mods/admins total ~15% (give or take a little rounding error) of posting activity on SDN. Thank you, Estrecca. Now we just need data for a bunch of other boards, and then we might be able to guess whether or not it's a good metric for how closely moderated a board is.

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:19 pm

If I am not mistaken, RedImperator is associated with the website "Atomic Rockets of the Space Patrol" (which actually seems to be a very good and well-balanced site, though it's a realism site rather than a vs. site) and has a related blog too. I recall the blog mentioning that he is either working on or has published a sci-fi novel of his own (though this may have been "published" on the SDN forums - a huge mistake if he wants to actually publish it professionally as he has just destroyed any "first rights" desirability - and from what I can tell it's a very original and well-written novel, so it's a double-shame there too).

The main author of "Atomics Rockets of the Space Patrol" has made statements throughout said site that he's a member of SDN too, though to what extent I have not discovered.

And, well, I have to admit that I've been digging through the archives of alt.startrek.vs.starwars thanks to Google Groups, though I haven't bothered to post there (not yet anyway, though the group seems to be very dead at this point so it seems pretty pointless anyway). Many of the admininstrators, other personnel and prominent posters seem to have originated there too, as previous stated, such as this Pablo Sanchez person and this Colin "The Yosemite Bear" person. At least Colin seems to be a very reasonable, laid-back person without too much of a vested interest in the debate, and is strictly in it for entertainment value. Unfortunately there are frequent references to some sort of vague but debilitating health problem.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:24 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote: Hmmm. You're almost making it sound as if Lucas is doing this intentionally just to spite the Vs. community, particularly the Wars side.

I'm much more willing to believe that it's just a result of apathy for strict firepower figures in favor of what seems more "neat" for storytelling purposes at the time, whether that apathy comes from Lucas himself or the actual show runners.
Like I said, it almost seems that way at times where Lucas is concerned. I didn't say he was actually going around doing that for real. On the other hand, we do have direct instances of Pablo Hidalgo and Gary M. Sarli actively attempting to retcon Saxtonite ICS material.
-Mike

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:33 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote: On the other hand, we do have direct instances of Pablo Hidalgo and Gary M. Sarli actively attempting to retcon Saxtonite ICS material.
-Mike
I am somewhat self-lead to believe two things, that the instances of Pablo Hidalgo and Gary M. Sarli attempting to recton Saxton will probably have minimal, if any, effect on the "main" media, including any video media. Though it may be a guideline for written and other EU material, the most significant canon sources will still probably be guided only by their main showrunners, whether that be Lucas or not; and that Hidalgo and Sarli may actually have an intention to either limit or outright kill the Vs. debate or community in any fashion and to any degree they can.

No doubt this is at least partially inspired by the Traviss incident. They may even see the Vs. community as a bit of a parasite on the fandom, or their ability to merchandise the franchise, particularly as trying to treat a high-fantasy space opera as hard science does tend to get in the way of that; the fanbase whines and moans if a storytelling direction or attempt to make the franchise more toy-friendly drives that franchise away from the "hard" side of sci-fi, so I wouldn't be surprised if these two have a vested interest in outright killing that part of the fandom.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:58 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:So mods/admins total ~15% (give or take a little rounding error) of posting activity on SDN. Thank you, Estrecca. Now we just need data for a bunch of other boards, and then we might be able to guess whether or not it's a good metric for how closely moderated a board is.
I'am curious, how much of that 15% activity is the mods/admins acting in their respective roles, or simply them participating outside that in the various threads and forums.
-Mike

Estrecca
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Post by Estrecca » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:44 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:I'am curious, how much of that 15% activity is the mods/admins acting in their respective roles, or simply them participating outside that in the various threads and forums.
-Mike
I'd say that this is pretty much impossible to quantify without going through the entire posting history of the members of the staff, but certainly only a small fraction (no more than 1-2% at the most, I reckon).

Outside of the Hall of Shame, staff action is a relative rarity these days, except when thread necromancy is involved and experienced board denizens already know better than to reawaken old threads. They are somewhat more proactive in N&P (violations of the Israel-Palestine moratorium result in the beatstick coming out real quick) and the other non-fiction boards, but since I don't browse through those all that often...

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Post by l33telboi » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:57 am

ILikeDeathNote wrote:I am somewhat self-lead to believe two things, that the instances of Pablo Hidalgo and Gary M. Sarli attempting to recton Saxton will probably have minimal, if any, effect on the "main" media, including any video media. Though it may be a guideline for written and other EU material, the most significant canon sources will still probably be guided only by their main showrunners, whether that be Lucas or not; and that Hidalgo and Sarli may actually have an intention to either limit or outright kill the Vs. debate or community in any fashion and to any degree they can.

No doubt this is at least partially inspired by the Traviss incident. They may even see the Vs. community as a bit of a parasite on the fandom, or their ability to merchandise the franchise, particularly as trying to treat a high-fantasy space opera as hard science does tend to get in the way of that; the fanbase whines and moans if a storytelling direction or attempt to make the franchise more toy-friendly drives that franchise away from the "hard" side of sci-fi, so I wouldn't be surprised if these two have a vested interest in outright killing that part of the fandom.
Hidalgo's name does pop up every now and then in relation to the new Clone Wars series.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:24 am

l33telboi wrote: Hidalgo's name does pop up every now and then in relation to the new Clone Wars series.
Yup:
Moreover, StarWars.com will offer an exclusive, entirely new online graphic novel, with new insights into the CLONE WARS galaxy. Written by Star Wars expert Pablo Hidalgo, its weekly installments will feature four different artists, each of whom illustrates a new chapter. Each of the 23 chapters will serve as an introduction to that week's episode of STAR WARS: THE CLONE WARS.
Where I copied the stuff from

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The Corporal
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Post by The Corporal » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:57 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote:If I am not mistaken, RedImperator is associated with the website "Atomic Rockets of the Space Patrol" (which actually seems to be a very good and well-balanced site, though it's a realism site rather than a vs. site) and has a related blog too. I recall the blog mentioning that he is either working on or has published a sci-fi novel of his own (though this may have been "published" on the SDN forums - a huge mistake if he wants to actually publish it professionally as he has just destroyed any "first rights" desirability - and from what I can tell it's a very original and well-written novel, so it's a double-shame there too).

The main author of "Atomics Rockets of the Space Patrol" has made statements throughout said site that he's a member of SDN too, though to what extent I have not discovered.

And, well, I have to admit that I've been digging through the archives of alt.startrek.vs.starwars thanks to Google Groups, though I haven't bothered to post there (not yet anyway, though the group seems to be very dead at this point so it seems pretty pointless anyway). Many of the admininstrators, other personnel and prominent posters seem to have originated there too, as previous stated, such as this Pablo Sanchez person and this Colin "The Yosemite Bear" person. At least Colin seems to be a very reasonable, laid-back person without too much of a vested interest in the debate, and is strictly in it for entertainment value. Unfortunately there are frequent references to some sort of vague but debilitating health problem.
IIRC Red took down his fic on SDN so he could get it published, not 100% on that though.

Bear, well he slips further away from whatever frip he had on reality every year. I believe he no longer takes his meds, so who knows what is going on there. I feel for the guy though, half his posts make absolutely no sense to me.
I'd say that this is pretty much impossible to quantify without going through the entire posting history of the members of the staff, but certainly only a small fraction (no more than 1-2% at the most, I reckon).

Outside of the Hall of Shame, staff action is a relative rarity these days, except when thread necromancy is involved and experienced board denizens already know better than to reawaken old threads. They are somewhat more proactive in N&P (violations of the Israel-Palestine moratorium result in the beatstick coming out real quick) and the other non-fiction boards, but since I don't browse through those all that often...
The board appears to police itself for the most part now, I've been a member since 2004 and most of the long time members know what they can and cannot get away with, for the rest; dogpiling and mockery seems to take care of problems and the hardcore trolls or those simply unable to learn are swiftly dealt with.

Edit: Red did indeed take the fic down in Mar 07.
Last edited by The Corporal on Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Corporal
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Post by The Corporal » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:23 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Sure, but I think the point that JMS is trying to make is that the intensive defense effort would not likely have occurred if the Saxtonite/SDN talifan attacks not occurred with the unnecessary vitriol that they did. Not only is the EU being retconned now for lower firepower and power generation, but it almost seems like Lucas himself is making a concerted effort to show SW tech in the TCW CGI TV series as being very low-power, too.
-Mike
I seriously doubt that, Lucas seems more interested in telling a story and what looks cool than anything overly technical, I'd be surprised if he is more than vaguely aware that a VS debate even exists (or cares for that matter). Lets be honest, the VS debate is a small part of the fan base.

As far as Traviss is concerned, well she brought it on herself. IIRC the debate over her numbers and writing was quite civil until she pulled out the "garrotting" line and then it turned into a back and forth exchange of insults.

I may be misremembering though, it's been a while since I looked at the events.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:17 am

The Corporal wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:
Sure, but I think the point that JMS is trying to make is that the intensive defense effort would not likely have occurred if the Saxtonite/SDN talifan attacks not occurred with the unnecessary vitriol that they did. Not only is the EU being retconned now for lower firepower and power generation, but it almost seems like Lucas himself is making a concerted effort to show SW tech in the TCW CGI TV series as being very low-power, too.
-Mike
I seriously doubt that, Lucas seems more interested in telling a story and what looks cool than anything overly technical, I'd be surprised if he is more than vaguely aware that a VS debate even exists (or cares for that matter). Lets be honest, the VS debate is a small part of the fan base.

As far as Traviss is concerned, well she brought it on herself. IIRC the debate over her numbers and writing was quite civil until she pulled out the "garrotting" line and then it turned into a back and forth exchange of insults.

I may be misremembering though, it's been a while since I looked at the events.
That is why I said "it almost seems like" Lucas is doing that, not that he actually is. I doubt he does know about the Versus debates, though I really would not be suprised either, if he did know.

As for Traviss, even if your recounting is correct, it still ultimately fell into her favor. If some of the Saxtonite/SDN folks had not allowed their tempers to get the better of them, it would not have given Traviss the excuse to cry foul and make the LFL folks circle the wagons about her. Either way, she came out the winner, and she can claim that she was just acting on Lucas' direction, regardless of how she feels about how many Clonetroopers there should be.
-Mike

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Post by The Corporal » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:50 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
That is why I said "it almost seems like" Lucas is doing that, not that he actually is. I doubt he does know about the Versus debates, though I really would not be suprised either, if he did know.

As for Traviss, even if your recounting is correct, it still ultimately fell into her favor. If some of the Saxtonite/SDN folks had not allowed their tempers to get the better of them, it would not have given Traviss the excuse to cry foul and make the LFL folks circle the wagons about her. Either way, she came out the winner, and she can claim that she was just acting on Lucas' direction, regardless of how she feels about how many Clonetroopers there should be.
-Mike
I find myself wondering what the actual affect on the casual fan was, does anyone but the small numbers of VS fans even know about this? It's not like there was a headline on the CBC about it.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:22 am

I've not seen what the "mainstream" opinion is in either fandom about the Versus debate. I have seen a more fun side of it bantered about at San Diego ComicCon called "Starship Smackdown". But getting back to the topic about Saxonites and SDN, I think that the reaction that is important here is how the LFL folks eventually came to react here. I doubt that such a thing would have little effect over all, except to turn the casual fan off to the whole Versus thing.
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:51 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:I've not seen what the "mainstream" opinion is in either fandom about the Versus debate. I have seen a more fun side of it bantered about at San Diego ComicCon called "Starship Smackdown". But getting back to the topic about Saxonites and SDN, I think that the reaction that is important here is how the LFL folks eventually came to react here. I doubt that such a thing would have little effect over all, except to turn the casual fan off to the whole Versus thing.
-Mike
There are occasionally brief references to VS debates elsewhere. The Trek/Wars rivalry gets mentioned a lot. Actually, they (someone at LFL) might have been thinking of the VS debate the other week when they sent out the official fan newsletter:
Star Wars Homing Beacon wrote:This week is truly a moment in history. No, not the US Presidential inauguration; we're talking about the collision of two major sci-fi universes. A Star Trek legend is guest-starring in this week's The Clone Wars episode, "Defenders of Peace." George Takei of Hikaru Sulu fame is voicing a Neimoidian officer, General Lok Durd. Though some fans like to imagine a competition between both venerable franchises, Star Wars and Star Trek have on occasion pulled from the same pool of acting talent.

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