Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Thinking that this situation calls for the UFP or Dominion blowing up planets (or erasing the people on them at any rate) is, well, insane!

All of your arguments are fine and make sense.

What the "nuke em" and "M.A.D makes sense" proponents fail to see is how immature their ideas are. What gives the right for anybody even a government EVEN with a 100% support from their population to deny the existance of the future generations of humanity?.

Only a self important arrogant idiot would consider ending the human race because they may be or even are losing a fight, so you may end up in a occupied country for a generation or even 10 generations or more and maybe even a slave. To support or think that M.A.D is a preferable solution to a few generations of slavery and then a struggle for and eventual freedom is the behaviour of a fool with no foresight.

For a person or even group of ppl/generation to think that they have the right to make a decision like that when they cannot consult every future generation and get their consent is a act of supreme arrogance.

EXINCTION means you lost even if you took the enemy down with you, staying alive even while suffering means that in the grand scheme of things there is hope that things can improve.

For Serafina to be a proponent of such a thing shows her to be a idiotic arrogant fool with the maturity of a petulant child and no understanding about what she thinks is a "real scenario".

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You are obviously not educated - no educated person would confuse temperature and heat with each other.

Considering i did not do so my education or lack of it it a non issue.

Furthermore - what about AotC? These Asteroids had no such visual effects (since they never collided) and yet were easily pulverized by both the blasters and the bomb from Jango Fetts ship.

Im not sure why you think that 20ish gigajoules (assming and overestimating that the roids are ALL nikel-iron and not made from more comon materials) is particularly impressive especially from a ship much larger than a fighter and owned by a rather wealthy bounty hunter.

Why can't you give me a reasony why they do not use them?

I have explained and a mature minded adult would understand, you are incapable of doing so.

However, that still makes no sense - when you make it younger, it goes to a stage where it already WAS. But if it does go supernova at that stage - then why is there still a star?

The effect did not stabilise and the core continued to get hotter until the sun exploded.

Yes, i DO want an answer.

The answer has been given but it only makes sense if you are a mature minded adult.

Since there was a planetary shield, the visual effects are already explained

Shield or no shield the effect continues long after the beam has hit the planet this is in direct contradiction to a DET weapon, i am not ignoring G canon, their is more "sci-fi magic" or "technobabble" required for the DET effect than a chain reaction effect.

You still do not understand that this is fun for me.

I have found that ppl only swear and make insults when something hurts, annoys or upsets them..but what ever you need to tell yurself.

No, the part where temperature and heat were exchanged was your doing. Prooving, as i said, that you have no scientific education whatsoever.

Wrong.

I explained why it was not.
You choose to ignore that, raveling in your filthy stupidity.

Considering you do not know what i was shown you cannot make that determination, but when has that stopped you leaping to the wrong conclusion........"filthy stupidity"...your anger is getting very transparant.

There is a significant number of fanwhores in every fandom. Referring to them negatively hardly shows any bias.

And yet he does not refer to SW fanwhores in derogatory terms.

No suprise, since his site never adresses SWvsST at all. Merely mentioning Star Trek in one sentence is hardly proof of this, especially if this is "backed up" only by a dead link.

The referance was made while discussing material for the site, and yes the link went dead AFTER the material was exposed, fortunatly it was cached and copied.

No limits fallacy? Where?
Red Herring? Pointing out that a source has no crediblity and is known for lies and distortion is hardly a red herring.

You introduced a irellavant bit of material that took the argumet away from the original subject being discussed hence a "red herring", then you tried to use that bit of material to show that ALL darkstars ideas were wrong hence a no limit fallacy maybe a Hasty Generalization or Leap in Logic?.

You choose.

Either way a single error or disproved point does not disprove everything a person has ever said and doing so shows your type of mentality.

"science, formal logic."

You use those words a lot but your science is flawed because of your bias making deliberatly you ignore obvious canon facts and material

While your formal logic is mearly your excuse to ignore canon material when it also does not suit your bias.

You actually disgrace the words logic and science considering the way you abuse them to serve you own personal needs while preaching about them like you are a honest individual instead of a liar.

You seem to think you are clever but you are actually very obvious and lack the maturity to undestand by just how much.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Stop watching Treknobabble and learn something about real life. Such has been the realtiy for decades now - you are obviously too young for you (and possibly your parents!) to remember the cold war.

im older than a child like you.

Given that even the threath of such weapons is enough and you do not have to use them .

SO YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWER THEN, THEY ARE NOT USED BECAUSE THE THREAT OF DOING SO IS ENOUGH.

What i and others have been saying all along.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

So, why is it then that we do it in real life?

Im sorry when did the human race become extinct?, i must have missed it.....

You answered your own argument and now look like a fool....time to ban me i suppose...oh no you cannot can you lol..

[The Dude]

Dude, it's concession.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Dude, it's concession.

I have not looked on SDN yet but im sure their will be some weord and wonderful explanation to justify the comment while not making it a concession but rather the opposite.

[The Dude]

Actually I was pointing out that you miss-spelled it.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You think that education is a non issue?
Gee, what a surpise

Considering i was referancing anothers comments my education is unimportant.

Oh, and it's also an issue for this argument - since it casts a shadow of doubt on your claim that these asteroids are not standard nickel-iron asteroids.

It is not a claim it is a fact that nickel-iron asteroids do not react by exploding in a flash of light because of such low impact velocities.

But thanks for accepting that figure - if such a small ship can put out 20+ gigajoules with a single bomb, think about what a Star Destroyer can do!

Actually i was refering to Slave I's blaster weaponry not the bomb.

You claimed that the device rejuvinated the star somehow. But that would mean that earlier in it's original lifecycle, it would have already been that young and therefore hot (according to your "explanation") - and therefore went nova (according to your "explanation").

What part of "the effect did not stabilise and the sun continued to heat up until it exploded" do you not understand?. The sun was supposed to stabilise and stop getting hotter at a certain point but it did not stop, in fact it got hotter and hotter until it exploded.

So to the question "can the federation cause a sun to over heat to the point it explodes with a few modified photon torpedoes" is quite simply YES.

No. The beam hit's the shield, which can hold it back for a split-second.

During that time, the energy is spread all over the shield (which is usefull for damage dissipation). When the shield breaks that split-second later, the planet goes boom.

The beam is almost finished hitting alderaan and already we can see darker planetary material ejecta near the centre so either their is NO shield or it is collapsed (i say no shield tbh but it is hardly important as the darker ejecta shows the planet is being hit).



The next images show the beam hitting and then that the beam has expended its energy into the planet and we see more and more planetary ejecta as the chain reaction effect continue AND grow, LONG after a DET beam would have expended its energy.




The last 2 images are later and even longer after the beam is expended, it shows the chain reaction reaching the point that the planet explodes and we see vast quantities of planetary ejecta thrown clear, then more planetary ejecta leading to a eventual kablammo.





Your theory fails on many levels but mostly because we can clearly see that the laser hits the planet long before the planet explodes.

Really?
Gosh, you must live in quite a sheltered enviorment.

Not really i just spend to spend my time with mature adults.

I will say that when i was young and a bit imature and spent time with those like that i agree swearing and casual insults were quite regular, but i grew out of it as i got older and i hope you do also.

Hihihi...anger. Pfff...why should i get angry about some kid saying stupid stuff about something i do not care about?

You care enough to comment and make insults.

Because SW fanwhores do not make such outlandish claims in SWvsST debates, mostly because they do not have to.

You mean like your pets comment regarding heisenberg compensators some how helping SW tech?....

No proof, no gain.

The proof is there your choice to not believe it is the issue here not its accuracy or existance.

It WOULD be a hasty generalization if i did so based on a single claim.
However, EVERY piece of DarkStar is a hillarious attempt at obfuscation, packed with lies and distortion.

Oh so its confirmed it was a red herring and a no limit fallacy.

Consession accepted.

If the THREAT would have been ENOUGH, then the Dominion would not have attacked them in the first place, or stopped after the threat was revealed.

The conflict was fought with conventional weapons just like the conventional weapon conflicts during the cold war. Your consession is valid and applies, and it is a rather large embarresment considering you screwed yourself doing it.


When both sides have the ability to totally destroy the other with WMD's they find other ways to fight rather than M.A.D, this is supported by actual historical fact as the cold war shows and it is undeniable.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Actually I was pointing out that you miss-spelled it.

Oh lol, i was right about the excuse anyway.

[Mike DiCenso]

*Sits back with popcorn and watches the fight rage on.* ;-)
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

It is plainly obvious that these people are shoulders deep up their own asses.

TRANSLATION:

I need to grow up and learn to communicate like a adult instead of a child.

Serafina, despite your logical and largely irrefutable argument.

TRANSLATION:

I am yet another rabid warsie who uses logic to ignore canon and science, science to ignore logic and canon, and canon to ignore both......depending on what serves my bias best.

SPLODING ASTEROIDS AT LOW SPEEDS!!!!. MY argument about the composition of the asteroids has no basis whatsoever.

Correct.

Even better, since the blasters were obviously weaker, and still could pulverize asteroids with ease.

Well at least we agree on summat, 20 gigajoules it is although i overestimated as you seemed to need it.

Soo...how does it have anything to do with stabilizing?

They were to increase the temperature to the point it was when it was younger, they did increase the temperature to that point but the method they used failed to stabilise and the sun over heated.

For somebody who claims i should provide numbers on the "sploding asteroids!!" (although the burden of proof is actually yours as you are claiming to know the composition) you really should oh WATCH THIS EPISODE before you decide to make claims about it and what they used to achieve things as well as what is said.

To do so, you have to ignore G-canon planetary shields

A lie, shields are irelavant to the fact a DET weapon is totally disproved....and they are not G canon only theatre shields have that level of canon because of hoth.

There are NO ejecta while the blue illumination effect still occurs. You can clearly see that on your OWN pictures.

The dark spot near the centre of the planet just refuted your entire argument.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Spec ... last-5.jpg

The next 6 images shown in order refute your argument even more as the dark area of planetary ejecta grows as the reaction continues and more material is thrown out long after the beam has hit.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Spec ... Aband2.jpg

Your silly pointless argument is refuted, shield or no shield and i say no shield not that it matters due to your theory being refuted either way.

Your consession is noted even if you refuse to accept the truth of it.

blah blah insults blah blah

Yea, whatever.

from all i gather he said "why do you object that it is so bad and unscientific, if Trek has Heisenberg compensators"?

You gather wrong......AGAIN....dpo you ever argue from a point of actual personal experiance and knowledge?.

Did the Dominion threaten to directly attack the Federations territory?
Yes, absolutely. So - why did they not even mention their supposedly existing superweapons?

Your premise is faulty because you cannot accept you are wrong, YOUR OPINION of how they should have fought does not over ride canon. And part from that rather gigantic hole in your reasoning there is the fact that superweapons were mentioned easily identified from a simple scan done by the least scientific ship in starfleet.

Concession accepted.....YET AGAIN.

You claimed that the asteroid collisions in TESB were too bright to be mere nickel-iron asteroids. Instead, you claim that they are made out of volatile materials.

The fact the asteroids were nickel-iron is part of your theory and as such it is up to you to prove the inconsistancies.

Proof in your next post regarding asteroid composition including figures explaining the SPLOSIONZ!!! or a consession are both acceptable.

-You claimed that Curtis Saxton was biased and unreliable. As i said, that does not change the canonicity of his works.

Several examples of such bias was documented and given, one was deleted but fortunatly was cached.

You claimed that Star Trek has a large stockpile of anti-stellar and anti-planetar WMDs. You provided no evidence, merely extrapolating their existance from single appearances, where said weapons were subsequently lost

CANON proof they were lost or il accept a consession, and CANON proof not your worthless opinion on trek politics.

You claimed that if a nuclear power would loose a war on their own territory, they would not attempt to use their nuclear weapons.

A lie i made no such claim although losing a small amount of terratory would not mean instant M.A.D in my opinion...but like your my opinion is unimportant to trek canon.

You claim that the sun that was forced to undergo supernova essentially aged backwards. You presented ZERO proof for this

It is directly quoted in the episode and figures are given while the process is underway....your argument is a DISGRACE considering you have not even watched the episode you are trying to argue about...but then look at your other argument and it does fit with a pattern of personal opinion and bias over riding canon, rationality, science and logic when ever it serves you.

Furthermore, you claimed that it was a simple "modified photon torpedoe", ignoring that the whole weapon system had to be replaced.

The fact that it was a modified torpedo is a direct canon comment, i made no claims on the extent of the modification....i suggest you watch the episode before you make a even bigger fool of your self.

Propably some kind of mental blockade - can wanking cause that?

I did not think the maturity level of your posts could drop any lower but here we have FINALLY proving me wrong on something.......do not expect any congratulations considering the circumstances.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Oh, and i followed my own advice: Proof that impacts release light: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dryvDlB1hWA

LOLOLOL....so pitiful from somebody who raves and "science" and "logic" guiding her theories.

You just made my point about how you ignore it when it serves your intentions.....so thanks for the proof yet agai and concession accepted once again.


Il tell you what you go away and come back showing that at least ONE the impacts we see in the links i gave you had a inpact velocity of 10.3km per second (37,000 km/h or 23,000 mph) or even close to it.

Yet again you disgrace the very things you claim to believe in, science and logic.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

What, you can't do it? It's a simple calculation of kinetic energy...you should be able to do that in highschool!

The burden of proof is yours.

Eh - still vastly better than Fed-ships.

Wrong again the drilling scene shows a NDF effect from the phasers that would take a DET weapon a minimum of 10-19 gigaTONS per second.

Why should i? Can't you paraphrase the important parts? You know, give us some evidence?

Why should you?....so you think your arguments regarding canon material are valid without having personal knowledge of what it is you are discussing?.

Actually that is consistant with your idea of a argument tactic...

Now, THIS is an example of a LIE.

The Endor-shield (which i specifically mentioned), but you also ignore that the presence of the shield explains all the effects that you attribute to your chain reaction.

Nice of you to admit it and with a fine example put underneath.

The shield from endor covered a small area around the generator as it was projected around the DS.

A glow from a shield would not progressivly darken in places as the beam hits and most certainly not after the beam had finished, the only explanation is that the beam had hhit the surface and the darker areas that grew were from planetary material.

Now the beam being blocked by your imaginary shield or not those facts disprove the DET theory as a DET beam would not continue to dump or create energy into a target after its had finished.

Two words: Time scale

The planet is still intact and the efect continues to increase seconds after the beam hits it, this is direct oposition to a DET theory...suck it up and move on.

Conceed or not but your theory is dead because of the very science you claim to use but actually abuse.

Say, if you have such great knowledge - would you kindly explain Heisensbergs Uncertainity principle and why it is vital to quantum mechanics?

That is a burden you required of your pet because it is his theory.

Present evidence that such weapons exist in the first place.

The existance of the technology within the trek verse and the federation is canon......concession accepted yet again.

Actually, no - they look like nickel-iron asteroids, so that's the null hyptothesis you have to refute.

Your firepower calculations along with all the other overly inflated junk is based in this highly dubious bit of material and the composition of the asteroids as such the burden of proof for you is undeniable and VAST because of the ghouse of cards you piled on top of it.

Confirm the composition and explain the explosions and flashes from such low speed impacts or conceed.

Which, again, does not change their canonicity, even if true.

Concession accepted, oh and G and now T canon refute his rubbish.

You can't proof a negative, junior. Elementary logic.
You have to show that something exists. Do it.

They have full canon status in the trek verse...consession accepted yet again.

Au contrare, my dear Dr. WatsonShithead.

Oh yea the SDN child hits out at the inconvienient truths...

Your opinion is just as irrelevant as mine.

That is what i said learn to read.

Fortunatly my opinion on ST WMD' tech is supported by canon yours is not no matter how you try to spin your political opinion.

Yeah, that's what i would like to call obfuscation.

Call it what you like, i said the torps were modified and your reply was nothing more than "but they were modified a lot"...so what?, i never sais all they gave em was a bit of a paint job now did i?.

-a pyhsics textbook and a calculator.
-an actual quote from Curtis Saxton
-A quote speaking of WMD-stockpiles in Trek - most likely to be found in DS9.
-A white paper showing that if only parts of the USA were invaded (say, Hawaii or Alaska) that no nuclear retaliation would be considered, or that any nation would consider such an invasion in the first place.
-A quote providing us with proof for backwards-ageing suns. If such a quote exists, it would necessiate further proof for such suns in the SW-galaxy - lacking that, your weapon simply only works on rare stars which do not exist there.

1. The burden is yours.
2. We have those you ingnored them.
3. Not required, the tech exists as canon.
4. Irellavant as the tech under debate exsists and is canon, ST is under no obligation to follow the dictates of what fron trek perspective would be a outdated and rather paranoid and foolish military policy (at the time), and doing so does not and never will refute canon material.
5. The material is available during the episode if you wish to continue to discuss it i suggest you at least watch it.

Here is a brief description.

TNG: Half a life.

The U.S.S. Enterprise takes aboard Dr. Timicin of Kaelon II. Timicin has been brought aboard to conduct an experiment which he hopes will save his threatened home planet. The lives of the people of Kaelon II are in jeopardy as the sun their planet orbits is in a state of near-collapse. The Federation has enlisted the Enterprise to take Timicin to a sun in a similar state of decay to conduct experiments which may yield a method for saving the Kaelon system from destruction, a peril which will certainly occur if its sun fails.

Upon arrival at their destination, the crew assists Timicin in modifying a photon torpedo to be fired into the proxy sun in the hopes that it will repair the damaged star and prove that the technique can be safely applied to the Kaelon sun. The torpedo is fired and, although the experiment seems initially to rectify the damage, the effect is short-lived and the sun explodes.

If you require more info i suggest you watch the episode.

[Praeothmin]

Yup, it has been proven without a doubt that the Federation doesn't have these superweapons because they never used them.

Just like it has been proven without a doubt that nobody today has Nuclear weapons, because no one has threatened to bomb Korea into submission even though it keeps threatening everyone and keeps defying the US and the world policies...
No one has Nuclear weapons, since no one fears Iran because of its Nuclear program...
Oh wait...

I seem to recall that when only the US had Nuclear weapons (like the Empire and the DS), they did indeed use them (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) to end a war and force surrender of an enemy.
I also seem to recall that today, no one actually used Nuclear weapons against enemies in a war because they would fear retaliation, and MAD, and that even countries that have Nuclear capabilities continue building up standard forces because they know no one will use their Nukes...
The treat of MAD is pretty strong, and respected even by the mighiest countries, just like the Federation respects its enemies WMD capabilities, and vice versa...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

This clearly refuted your claim that kinetic impacts do not look the way we see it in TESB.

I made no such overly dimplistic claim, my ssertion was for you to proove that roids at the speed we see in tesb would behave the way we see....with SPLOSIONS!!!.

Oh and thanks for the reminder as you also need to explain FLAMINGASTEROIDS!!! after a light collision.

YOU have yet to do so....i suggest you do or you conceed.

Oh and i suggest you use the slowest and smallets in your calcs to save time.

You see, burden of proof means that you have to provide PROOF for a CLAIM.

YOU claim that roids composed of nickel-iron would EXPLODE and catch fore/combust the way we see in tesb, you entire house of cards is built on the fact those roids are composed of nickel-iron. So show a roid moving at the speeds we see in tesb would explode and catch fire combust the way they do or conceed.

Only if we take your obviously wrong numbers, which have already been refuted.

You cannot refute canon materil with personal opinion.....how many times do you need to be told?.

It covered the whole moon. This is made clear in the G-canon novelization, and also in the movie where they have to steal codes so that an opening in the shield is made. If the shield did not cover the whole moon, they could have slipped in on the other side of the moon,

The shield (shown in red in the G canon movie that over rides any other material and especially personal opinions) covered the DS and a small section of the planet, THAT is the part of the shield they needed to get through.

Did you miss the part where i explain the obvious:
At the part were your "dark places" are visible, the shield is already broken.

Bull, even if their was a shield it does not work like a bunch of planes of glass where you break one and the rest are intact and even if it did the material was being spewed out all over the planet long after the beam had hit and well before it exploded.

The DET theory is refuted.

By my canonic shield, you mean. Stop ignoring canon.

Theatre shields are G canon no planetary shield is mentioned in any of the movies.....but shield or no shield the DET theory is refuted.

Seconds? Did you even watch the movie?
The whole explosion did not even LAST a second. Seriously - can't you think of a better lie?

Oh right you mean the first explosion caused by the chain raction not the second?, now i understand your issue you think that the first explosion was the one i was refering too?.

No no i was refering to the second explosion, you know the one that also disproves a DET effect due to the fact that a DET weapon would not cause 2 explosions, the one that was well after the beam had hit?

Did you just click stop after the first part of the chain reaction and think it was over?, you really should watch the entire scene as their is a later explosion that you obviously missed.

In other words, you do not know even the most basic principles of quantum mechanics.
Which is fine - but that also means that you have no idea how ridiculous a "heisenberg compensator" is.
Which is fine - but again, your lack of education is telling.

1. Actually i do.
2. A "heisenberg compensator" is canon your OPINION of it again is not...dear god how many canon issues do you just decide to ignore because of your personal bias, you know that most of your argument do that right?....YOU CANONT DISREGARD CANON MATERIAL BECAUSE YOU DO NOT LIKE IT.

Are we clear?, i know it means you will have very little to post if you follow the above comment but then lets face it your arrogance will never accept that you are wrong and cannot over ride canon but i can at least say i told you.

The existance of a specific technology does not result in it's widespread application.

You mean like the worlds nuclear arsenal?, that is true and just like trek we have never used our nukes in a widespread application even during times of conflict.

Still at last you admit the tech exists so consession accepted.

They are not my calculations, and i never claimed so.

Consession accepted.

Here is a video of the whole chase szene. The asteroid fields appears at ~ 2 minutes

the first roids are seen at 1:53 and the falcon is moving while either the roids are not or they are moving in total uniformity in the oposite direction of the falcon lol.

the collisions at ~2:20.

The first collision is at 2:04 and is absurdly slow.

The next is at 2:25 and is again pitifully slow but it does give a large explosion and the small roid and large roid are both destroyed.

2:33 is a classic, 2 small roids at again slow speeds collide, one is destroyed and one partly survives ACTUALLY CATCHES FIRE AND CONTINUES TO BURN as it passes below the falcon, we see another BURNING ASTEROID at 2:36 passing down the side pf the falcon.

Very nice of you to post that vid and make my pint and remind me of the burning asteroids as well as the SPLODINGASTEROIDS.........Consession accepted.

So you readily admit that that technology only worked on already unstable stars.

I am pretty sure i say no such thing.

Hence, it will not work on stable stars.

That is a leap that requires your first comment is accurate and as it is not as i nor anybody else limits the effect to dying stars, try again.

"The system's star heats up according to plan. However, the heating process fails to stop, and the star explodes".

What part of that comment makes it seem exclusive to one particular star?.

-estaminate speed and size of the asteroids. Easily done by a frame-to-frame examination.
-calculate kinetic energy from the impact. Basic phyiscs, no higher math required.
-look at what that energy would do. Basic physics, no higher math required.
-check if it is consistent with the visuals

Get on with it then, good luck and il enjoy you FLAMINGASTERROIDS explanation as well....or il accept your concession now.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

That would be a BIG strike for the Star Trek side of the debate. It would not topple every calculation, but it would be an excellent starting point. You would be famous for prooving that several people made a huge mistake - and with further work, you could potentially reduce the power of SW-guns by orders of magnitude.

Calculations are not required by me it is you who require them.

However you can save time by forstly explaining how these 2 very small and very slow roids explode when they collide destroying one and causing the other one to catch fire and continue burning....



Good luck and happy calculating.