Clone Wars CGI Series

[Kane Starkiller]

It's called a valve. A simple mechanical valve that gets blown shut when interior pressure is higher than exterior would be of value.

So after going through trouble of designing a sealed suit they itenitonally put in a contrived valve that can't be manually sealed?

In any case, though, my main point is simply that you cannot declare trooper armor to be vacuum-worthy based on the podhunter episode.

Further, given that you have contradictory indications regarding trooper armor (not airtight one minute, a pressure suit in the next), then you can either assume variants of the trooper armor (an extra entity where only one is obvious) or something minor like a valve or pressure-related (doesn't even have to be electronic) inflation (also an extra entity).

A third option would simply be that they used the SW equivalent of duct tape in the pod to seal up the gaps in the armor before going outside. Frankly that idea seems pretty damn good to me, but as we did not see any evidence of that I thus lean away from it.

Hence my statement that we ought not draw final conclusions until more evidence is forthcoming, because no answer is perfect and, most importantly, the series continues.

I can in fact claim they are vacuum worthy since we saw them operate in vacuum.
The episode is contradictory only if you refuse to ackonwledge various explanations already given in the thread: carelessness by the troopers, damaged suits, lack of air filtration system etc.
Also why would someone design a suit that is duct tape away from being space worthy and then stop there? Not that it matters since the clones obviously had an air supply which means the suits are designed to operate in vacuum.
Finally no matter how many more episode there are they won't change what we saw in the second episode.

Why should I care?

I'm not saying you should care but you are required to provide reasoning as to how it's physically possible otherwise your theory is void.

That would be an absurd concentration. Further, how do you get a guy to inhale such things for the additional screaming we heard?

You need to provide some reasoning and numbers behind your absurd concentration claim. Also how do you know there were additional screams by a single clone rather than single screams by several clones.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I vote carelessness. Suits can be sealed, but troopers don't always do it. This is a good enough argument for the OT and the numerous cases of necks we see between the collar and helmet of stormtroopers.

[2046]

It's called a valve. A simple mechanical valve that gets blown shut when interior pressure is higher than exterior would be of value.

So after going through trouble of designing a sealed suit they itenitonally put in a contrived valve that can't be manually sealed?

Do not mix up unrelated statements into absurd combinations.

I can in fact claim they are vacuum worthy since we saw them operate in vacuum.

Do not lie. I have shown the pictures.

The episode is contradictory only if you refuse to ackonwledge various explanations already given in the thread: carelessness by the troopers, damaged suits, lack of air filtration system etc.

All suits damaged? All troopers careless, even when helmeted? Air filtration? You mean for a suit you claim to be sealed and which has no valve per your argument?

I thought you wanted Star Wars to win, buddy.

Why should I care?

I'm not saying you should care but you are required to provide reasoning as to how it's physically possible otherwise your theory is void.

No, it most certainly is not. I do not have to know why the sky is blue to claim that it is.

That would be an absurd concentration. Further, how do you get a guy to inhale such things for the additional screaming we heard?

You need to provide some reasoning and numbers behind your absurd concentration claim.

I do not. Your claim is a bald-faced absurdity yet you want me to provide calculations while you do not?

I'm sorry, that just isn't how it works.

You're claiming a sufficient concentration of minute frozen particles of coolant and/or water that can appear like thick air (even in high-def) spread across the debris field.

You do not even recognize the inherent absurdity in that claim.

1. How would such uniform distribution of fine particles be formed without larger particles existing?
2. How would such uniform distribution of fine particles be made to linger?
3. How could such a cloud of material form before the ships had become the debris field you claim as origin of said material?
4. How could a person breathe a concentration of fine frozen particles and thereby gain sufficient breath to scream?

Also how do you know there were additional screams by a single clone rather than single screams by several clones.

I watched the episode. For starters, several clones were not present. And, I listened.

Here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/videos/CGI102-po ... uccess.avi

Anyway, the simple fact is, we don't know right now the precise details of suit mechanics, but you can't claim that the suits are vacuum-worthy because we clearly have not seen them in a vacuum. You also cannot claim that they safeguard against biological threats, since they certainly are not contagion-worthy.

While some may be fooled by your boldness in declaring the contrary with utter confidence, your lack of evidence for your wild claims fails to fool me. So, barring improvement on that front, I see no further point debating the matter.

[Kane Starkiller]

Do not mix up unrelated statements into absurd combinations.

Then you admit the valve (if it exists) would obviously be designed for manual closure if it was automatic in addition?

Do not lie. I have shown the pictures.

You have shown pictures of what you claim is smoke rather than some kind of dense particulate without providing any evidence. You have also shown pictures of what you claim is light scattering that cannot be caused by anything other than air. Of course you utterly failed to explain how it's remotely possible for there to exist a dense air blob in the middle of space in zero g environment.

All suits damaged? All troopers careless, even when helmeted? Air filtration? You mean for a suit you claim to be sealed and which has no valve per your argument?

I thought you wanted Star Wars to win, buddy.

There were 4 infected clones I believe. It's not really unbelievable that their suits were damaged. We also know that two of the four removed their helmets before they checked the air so it's not unbelievable that all were careless. And sealed suit with an air supply has nothing to do with the air filtration system. Once the air supply runs out they need to get air from somewhere and all they had was the room infected with virus.
Neither of these explanations is remotely as far fetched as yours "atmosphere blob in space" claim.

No, it most certainly is not. I do not have to know why the sky is blue to claim that it is.

The analogy is flawed since you have not provided direct evidence for the existence of atmosphere but inferred it from what you claim is smoke and atmospheric scattering.

I do not. Your claim is a bald-faced absurdity yet you want me to provide calculations while you do not?

I'm sorry, that just isn't how it works.

You're claiming a sufficient concentration of minute frozen particles of coolant and/or water that can appear like thick air (even in high-def) spread across the debris field.

You do not even recognize the inherent absurdity in that claim.

1. How would such uniform distribution of fine particles be formed without larger particles existing?
2. How would such uniform distribution of fine particles be made to linger?
3. How could such a cloud of material form before the ships had become the debris field you claim as origin of said material?
4. How could a person breathe a concentration of fine frozen particles and thereby gain sufficient breath to scream?

You do need to provide calculations since you claim that light scattering proves the existence of atmosphere thus implicitly claiming that it's impossible that various particulates like ice could cause it.

1. Who says there are no larger particles? They were in a ship debris field, some chunks were hundreds of meters long.
2. Where would those particles go?
3. Where did I say it would?
4. You still haven't provided evidence any of the clones screamed more than once.

I would also mention that neither of these problems is nearly as serious as the existence of an atmospheric pocket in space yet you simply gloss over it.

I watched the episode. For starters, several clones were not present. And, I listened.

Here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/videos/CGI102-po ... uccess.avi

Anyway, the simple fact is, we don't know right now the precise details of suit mechanics, but you can't claim that the suits are vacuum-worthy because we clearly have not seen them in a vacuum. You also cannot claim that they safeguard against biological threats, since they certainly are not contagion-worthy.

While some may be fooled by your boldness in declaring the contrary with utter confidence, your lack of evidence for your wild claims fails to fool me. So, barring improvement on that front, I see no further point debating the matter.

How do you know how many clones were there? Are you assuming that all were blown out of the pod? Again they were clearly in vacuum since they were in zero g environment in space. No atmosphere could exist. That you can claim there is some kind of pocket of atmosphere in space and accuse me of wild claims in the same breath is amusing to say the least.

[2046]

Do not mix up unrelated statements into absurd combinations.

Then you admit the valve (if it exists) would obviously be designed for manual closure if it was automatic in addition?

Do not mix up unrelated statements into absurd combinations then, when corrected on doing so, leap to yet another baseless conclusion.

Do not lie. I have shown the pictures.

You have shown pictures of what you claim is smoke

Do not lie. I made no such claim.

You can't even decide if it is smoke or air:

Of course you utterly failed to explain how it's remotely possible for there to exist a dense air blob in the middle of space in zero g environment.

Do not lie. I made no such claim. You inserted the concept of it being a blob all by yourself. I did not localize it. All we know is that there is some sort of gas around the star.

All suits damaged? All troopers careless, even when helmeted? Air filtration? You mean for a suit you claim to be sealed and which has no valve per your argument?

I thought you wanted Star Wars to win, buddy.

There were 4 infected clones I believe. It's not really unbelievable that their suits were damaged.

I'm okay with you up to this point, except for the unlikely claim of a 100% damaged suit count. If that were true then there would be no point arguing for a seal anyway, because if anyone so much as farted the seal might be damaged and unusable.

We also know that two of the four removed their helmets before they checked the air

That is a lie.

And sealed suit with an air supply has nothing to do with the air filtration system. Once the air supply runs out they need to get air from somewhere and all they had was the room infected with virus.

Illogical. If they were in a sealed suit, then they had free run of the entire lab complex and could locate more supplies. Surely you do not think the lab complex was without lab supplies, do you?

To claim that they were stuck in the room is to confess that their suits were not sealed. To claim that they had to have air is to argue that they would rather die of a wicked virus then pass out quietly.

And again, you seem to forget that a helmeted clonetrooper clearly did not go with and defend a Galactic Senator and a Galactic Senate Representative.

Any other time you'd be arguing that clone troopers are super-professional uber-accurate and trained beyond question. But now that such would expose a weakness, these are the weakest, most retarded, and most cowardly clones ever created by the hands of Kaminoa.

I find your arguments completely laughable.

Now, earlier, I said:

1. How would such uniform distribution of fine particles be formed without larger particles existing?
2. How would such uniform distribution of fine particles be made to linger?
3. How could such a cloud of material form before the ships had become the debris field you claim as origin of said material?
4. How could a person breathe a concentration of fine frozen particles and thereby gain sufficient breath to scream?

You reply:

1. Who says there are no larger particles? They were in a ship debris field, some chunks were hundreds of meters long.

Failure to answer the question. Why, in a magic place full of a fog of individually-invisible particles, would all of these particles be of such a small size as to be individually invisible? Where are the bigger (i.e. centimeter-wide) pieces in this frozen fog of yours?

Surely you realize that it makes no sense to believe that there is a debris field and also invisibly-small frozen water drops with no in-between.

2. Where would those particles go?

If some massive storehouse of water were frozen, how is it that such a frozen body would be disassembled into a fog of invisibly-tiny frozen particles that remained on-site? How would they have been placed so perfectly as to provide an immobile and uniform distribution?

You really don't understand that your idea is absurd?

3. Where did I say it would?

That is before the debris field.

4. You still haven't provided evidence any of the clones screamed more than once.

Let me link it again: http://www.st-v-sw.net/videos/CGI102-po ... uccess.avi

Again, that's two clones getting blown out of a pod. You can hear one scream, breathe, and then scream again. Really they both sound like they do that.

How do you know how many clones were there?

I watched the damned episode, which is something you clearly have not done.



And with that ignorant question, we are done, because you are through. I'm used to you trying to lie about source material, but if you can't even trouble yourself to watch it before doing so . . .

Wow, man. Just wow.

[Kane Starkiller]

Do not mix up unrelated statements into absurd combinations then, when corrected on doing so, leap to yet another baseless conclusion.

Well then clarify it for me. What was your point with an automatic seal?

Do not lie. I made no such claim.

You can't even decide if it is smoke or air:

I meant the black stuff coming out of the ships that are hit.

Do not lie. I made no such claim. You inserted the concept of it being a blob all by yourself. I did not localize it. All we know is that there is some sort of gas around the star.

Which doesn't change the observed gravity nor the distance from the object which looks more like a gas giant than a star. Therefore the gas, if it exists, would be only a tiny fraction above the pressure of the surrounding space. Again the suits needed to be pressurized and have a supply of air.

We also know that two of the four removed their helmets before they checked the air

That is a lie.

No it isn't. Watch the episode. We see a clone saying that virus got in, camera pans to Asoka talking with Amidala, and then more to the left showing two clones without helmets.

Illogical. If they were in a sealed suit, then they had free run of the entire lab complex and could locate more supplies. Surely you do not think the lab complex was without lab supplies, do you?

To claim that they were stuck in the room is to confess that their suits were not sealed. To claim that they had to have air is to argue that they would rather die of a wicked virus then pass out quietly.

And again, you seem to forget that a helmeted clonetrooper clearly did not go with and defend a Galactic Senator and a Galactic Senate Representative.

Any other time you'd be arguing that clone troopers are super-professional uber-accurate and trained beyond question. But now that such would expose a weakness, these are the weakest, most retarded, and most cowardly clones ever created by the hands of Kaminoa.

I find your arguments completely laughable.

First of all they probably didn't want to leave Asoka who didn't have any protection. Secondly they could always hope that cure will be found thus deciding to open their helmets anyway.

Failure to answer the question. Why, in a magic place full of a fog of individually-invisible particles, would all of these particles be of such a small size as to be individually invisible? Where are the bigger (i.e. centimeter-wide) pieces in this frozen fog of yours?

Surely you realize that it makes no sense to believe that there is a debris field and also invisibly-small frozen water drops with no in-between.

Who said there aren't any? We saw only a fraction of the debris field in any detail.

If some massive storehouse of water were frozen, how is it that such a frozen body would be disassembled into a fog of invisibly-tiny frozen particles that remained on-site? How would they have been placed so perfectly as to provide an immobile and uniform distribution?

You really don't understand that your idea is absurd?

So perfectly as to appear to provide uniform and immobile distribution you mean? Our eyes are not microscopes. Again, we never saw the entirety of the field merely certain parts.

That is before the debris field.

And you still failed to provide evidence that that is smoke rather than some kind of dense particulate.

Let me link it again: http://www.st-v-sw.net/videos/CGI102-po ... uccess.avi

Again, that's two clones getting blown out of a pod. You can hear one scream, breathe, and then scream again. Really they both sound like they do that.

Actually we don't hear anyone breathe in. There are several screams however people are perfectly capable of producing several screams without breathing in between. Not to mention that the very scene disproves your theory. They were violently blown out thus proving the large pressure differential and then simply floated away thus proving zero g environment proving yet again no significant pressure is possible.

And with that ignorant question, we are done, because you are through. I'm used to you trying to lie about source material, but if you can't even trouble yourself to watch it before doing so . . .

Wow, man. Just wow.

I asked you how do you know how many clones were there. So how did I lie if I asked you a question? Strictly speaking there could still be an additional clone behind the guy on the left but it is really irrelevant since it's not necessary to breathe in order to produce several disconnected screams.

[2046]

I'm only responding for humor's sake, because there's some awesomely funny stuff here. Honestly, Kane, your irrational behavior seems geared at annoying me and getting under my skin as irrational claims usually do, but in this case it's just so incredibly bad that I am laughing too hard to care.

We also know that two of the four removed their helmets before they checked the air

That is a lie.

No it isn't. Watch the episode. We see a clone saying that virus got in, camera pans to Asoka talking with Amidala, and then more to the left showing two clones without helmets.

So by your own statement, they had checked the air before we saw the helmets gone. And yet you claim that we "know" they removed their helmets before this air check.

You don't see the problem with that? Seriously?

That is before the debris field.

And you still failed to provide evidence that that is smoke

You're the only one who's ever talked about smoke. Why should I have to prove your beliefs for you?

There are several screams however people are perfectly capable of producing several screams without breathing in between.

So wait, your argument is that at the moments of death, these guys decided to scream in staccato patterns? What, were they screaming in Morse Code, being careful not to lose any extra breath while closing their throats from the vacuum?

That's absurd and you know it. It's retarded to think they would, and I'm not even certain they could.

Not to mention that the very scene disproves your theory. They were violently blown out thus proving the large pressure differential and then simply floated away thus proving zero g environment proving yet again no significant pressure is possible.

1. Yet they could inhale at a time when the pod's rapidly expanding air volume in the surrounding space would've left a pressure of no more than 25%. See, you just don't get it.

2. The guys getting blown out does not prove vacuum. Aircraft can have people and sections of framing sucked out at 23,000 feet. That's a 60% drop in pressure from sea level, but 28,000 was normal altitude for unpressurized (open-sided) B-17s in WW2.

So let's see . . .

1. There is no evidence for vacuum, merely lower-than-normal pressure. Enough to cause a blow-out, but not enough (for instance) to make Plo Koon boil.
2. The temperature was possibly not bad given the nearby star.
3. But something killed the clone officers.

Seems to me that the gas surrounding the star was not incredibly dense, but most importantly simply not oxygen.

Strictly speaking there could still be an additional clone behind the guy on the left

Occam, anyone?

[l33telboi]

No it isn't. Watch the episode. We see a clone saying that virus got in, camera pans to Asoka talking with Amidala, and then more to the left showing two clones without helmets.

...Which means we saw them without helmets after the other clones said it was dangerous.

[Kane Starkiller]

So by your own statement, they had checked the air before we saw the helmets gone. And yet you claim that we "know" they removed their helmets before this air check.

You don't see the problem with that? Seriously?

They realize the air is contaminated at 4:06 and the clones without helmet are shown at 4:30 without any scene cuts. So, yes, I guess it's possible they took their helmets down in 24 seconds after they heard the air is contaminated.

You're the only one who's ever talked about smoke. Why should I have to prove your beliefs for you?

Then what was your point in showing that picture of a Venator getting blown up?
EDIT: I just read this from one of your previous posts:

This one works better in full motion, but you can see the smoke trails. You're also seeing an engine headed in the general direction of the camera with a billowing plume of smoke blowing toward behind it, as if it is flaming debris shooting through air.

Why are you now claiming you never talked about smoke?

So wait, your argument is that at the moments of death, these guys decided to scream in staccato patterns? What, were they screaming in Morse Code, being careful not to lose any extra breath while closing their throats from the vacuum?

That's absurd and you know it. It's retarded to think they would, and I'm not even certain they could.

Theatrical distortions of my argument will not obscure the fact your theory of an atmosphere half to one diameter away from what looks like a gas giant is ridiculous. No one said the cuts in the screams were intentional and the result of careful planning by the clonetroopers. They were dying in agony, you can't exactly expect predictable behaviour.

1. Yet they could inhale at a time when the pod's rapidly expanding air volume in the surrounding space would've left a pressure of no more than 25%. See, you just don't get it.

2. The guys getting blown out does not prove vacuum. Aircraft can have people and sections of framing sucked out at 23,000 feet. That's a 60% drop in pressure from sea level, but 28,000 was normal altitude for unpressurized (open-sided) B-17s in WW2.

So let's see . . .

1. There is no evidence for vacuum, merely lower-than-normal pressure. Enough to cause a blow-out, but not enough (for instance) to make Plo Koon boil.
2. The temperature was possibly not bad given the nearby star.
3. But something killed the clone officers.

Seems to me that the gas surrounding the star was not incredibly dense, but most importantly simply not oxygen.

1.You showed no evidence they inhaled after the pod was breached.
2. No the troopers getting blown out by itself doesn't prove vacuum, zero g does however. You ignored that part of my argument. In fact you again bury yourself with your own statements which show that pressure drops significantly even a few km from the surface let alone planetary diameter away.
3. Why do you keep claiming it's a star? I don't remember anyone identifying it as such and the object looks like a gas giant similar to Yavin at least in color. You can clearly see the cloud patterns in the atmosphere.

Strictly speaking there could still be an additional clone behind the guy on the left

Occam, anyone?

Yes but Occam's Razor should be applied to the entire theory. An unseen guy is a far simpler explanation than atmosphere so far away from the planet. Again I must notice that you haven't even begun to justify or explain your far fetched theory while at the same time making an issue out of simple things like interrupted screams or ice particles causing light scattering.

[l33telboi]

Oh lord. That latest episode was amazing. We get an episode dedicated entirely to a spacebattle - and it's a great one.

Now then, there is tons of info here. First off, fighters are effective against fully shielded warships. This is demonstrated on three separate occasions, when fighters (and only fighters) engage capships and beat them to a pulp. Secondly, we see a Venator ramming a Lucrehulk. We see velocity and everything needed to quantify the incident. And speaking of velocity, we hear Anakin order to boost the engines in order to ram the enemy ship, but what happens? The engines flare brightly and then the ship begins to accelerate... only not at anything near the kilogee area.

And next episode seems to be dedicated to ground warfare, which should give us more interesting info - including (I think) a direct demonstration that Acclamators don't have any weapons.

[Estrecca]

3. Why do you keep claiming it's a star? I don't remember anyone identifying it as such and the object looks like a gas giant similar to Yavin at least in color. You can clearly see the cloud patterns in the atmosphere.

The episode guide in the website supports the claim that that thing is supposed to be an old red supergiant star, unless my memory fails me.

Still, shouldn't there be some atmospheric refraction in this hypothetical atmospheric pocket even with a considerable drop in pressure? I do not claim to understand very well at all the orbital mechanics that might make possible the existence of such a thing for a short while, but shouldn't we see some refraction so close to a star if there is really a large concentration of gas particles in the debris field?

[2046]

Caught the last episode of the Ryloth trilogy. Quick reactions in no particular order:

1. The walkers (like the open-cockpit AT-ST type from RotS) can run pretty damn fast.

2. The Separatists had sufficient bomber craft and support materials on the ground at Ryloth to enable them to begin a firebombing campaign against Ryloth villages. There were so many bombers that Skywalker's fighters were unable to stop them all, despite Skywalker having had sufficient forces to maintain space superiority against an unknown number of Separatist "cruisers".

The bombs were very sub-kiloton, as one would expect from watching Star Wars.

3. Planet Ryloth appears rather less developed than 22nd Century Vulcan . . . their capital city was little more than a large cave system in a big hill.

4. The capital city had a big pit around it (a la a moat) and a "plasma bridge" that would act as a solid for walking or for antigrav transports. You can basically think of it as a cool-to-the-touch blunt lightsaber (e.g. no cutting or burning). When the bridge was deactivated the antigrav transports started dropping right away, implying that the big antigrav vehicles somehow push against the ground instead of just floating in place against a nullified gravity.

5. Several Separatist tank direct hits failed to destroy a Republic tank. Only when the leg was broken by enemy fire was the tank disabled. However, we later saw significant small arms fire destroy a Separatist tank. This appears to suggest that Seppie tanks are weaker than Republic tanks, though this concept would need cross-checking with other examples (e.g. the climbing battle from the movie).

More to come . . .

[l33telboi]

After watching the commentary on the episode - Is it just me or is Filoni visibly squirming after having brought up the french accent thing? He seems really (and I do mean really, considering this is probably a scripted interview) uncomfortable with it.

[2046]

1. The walkers (like the open-cockpit AT-ST type from RotS) can run pretty damn fast.

Looking again I'd ballpark it in the 30-40mph range, with good acceleration and maneuverability.

3. Planet Ryloth appears rather less developed than 22nd Century Vulcan . . . their capital city was little more than a large cave system in a big hill.

There actually was a little bit more to it than that . . . the "big hill" was very tall and some structures (including the city walls) were built up on its sides, though there is no structure visible any larger than what we might build today.

4. The capital city had a big pit around it (a la a moat) and a "plasma bridge" that would act as a solid for walking or for antigrav transports. You can basically think of it as a cool-to-the-touch blunt lightsaber (e.g. no cutting or burning). When the bridge was deactivated the antigrav transports started dropping right away, implying that the big antigrav vehicles somehow push against the ground instead of just floating in place against a nullified gravity.

Most importantly, there was "no way" across the moat without the plasma bridge.

5. Several Separatist tank direct hits failed to destroy a Republic tank. Only when the leg was broken by enemy fire was the tank disabled. However, we later saw significant small arms fire destroy a Separatist tank.

We also saw a single small grenade disable a Seppie tank.

Last but least, we got to see some of the badass droids from 'Rookies' scrapping hand-to-hand with clones.

[PunkMaister]

To be honest I like the CG show a lot the stories are pretty darn good and solid. The warsies are probably going bunkers over the firepower figures which so far show less power than Trek, Stargate and B5 each! Oh well... :D