Clone Wars CGI Series

[2046]

While I'm sure the SDN excuse that only some retarded clones who had their helmets off in a virus-laden area got sick will be their popular myth, the truth is that they all did.

The helmets are obviously hermetically sealed since we saw the clones operate in vacuum in the second episode. Thus either these particular suits were damaged/faulty or they removed their helmets.

Except that doesn't follow in this episode. We would thus have to presume non-obvious armor variants (e.g. assume two sets of armor) or combine the two incidents, drawing the conclusion that they are not completely sealed (e.g. insisting on consistent behavior of one armor type).

Given that the suits did not provide complete protection from vacuum nor did they provide complete protection from viruses, the simplest and most consistent answer is to assume a single armor type that can be well-sealed but not completely sealed.

However, because the series continues, it would behoove us to hold on final conclusions until later.

[Kane Starkiller]

No the Jedi stated that he will be able to withstand the pressure for a brief time since he didn't have a helmet. Nothing was said about the clonetroopers.
It is possible that not all variants are hermetically sealed although there seemed to be nothing special about these suits. It was just a couple of clones that managed to make it to the escape pods, no one expected to go on a space walk at the beginning of the mission.

[Kane Starkiller]

By the way in the last episode when one of the clones first checks the computer and realizes that the room is contaminated two of the clones already had their helmets off. Thus it is perfectly possible that all of them were careless enough to take the helmets off before making sure.

[l33telboi]

By the way in the last episode when one of the clones first checks the computer and realizes that the room is contaminated two of the clones already had their helmets off. Thus it is perfectly possible that all of them were careless enough to take the helmets off before making sure.

There's nothing to suggest as much and no evidence for it. Rex had his helmet on when they jumped through the door and he had it on afterwards as well. The whole thing would make the clones rather inept. Who in their right mind goes and removes their protective gear before making sure they're in no risk of getting killed by something like that?

As for the clones in the second episode, it was rather clear that clone trooper armor isn't capable of operating in space for a long time. The medical droid checking on the men afterwards said that the pressure suits offer some protection. This is further demonstrated by the fact that the clones who had been in space were indeed in need of a medical frigate in order to recover.

[Kane Starkiller]

There's nothing to suggest as much and no evidence for it. Rex had his helmet on when they jumped through the door and he had it on afterwards as well. The whole thing would make the clones rather inept. Who in their right mind goes and removes their protective gear before making sure they're in no risk of getting killed by something like that?

But they did do it. Watch the episode again. In the scene where one of the clonetroopers realizes some of the virus got in the room two of them already have their helmets off. Is it a big leap to assume that the other two also had their helmets off off screen?

As for the clones in the second episode, it was rather clear that clone trooper armor isn't capable of operating in space for a long time. The medical droid checking on the men afterwards said that the pressure suits offer some protection. This is further demonstrated by the fact that the clones who had been in space were indeed in need of a medical frigate in order to recover.

The point is that the armor is hermetically sealed. I never made any claims as to how much air they have. It can't be that much judging from that small bump on the back of the armor.

[l33telboi]

But they did do it.

I only saw a few of the Clones remove their helmets. Rex and some of the others were never seen to do so. Ergo, your claim that Rex and the others did so gets no support from the episode. It's a theory without evidence designed to reach a preferred conclusion. It's much like I said in the other thread, your methodology when it comes to versus debating is lacking, to say the least. You feel quite alright in speculating without evidence when talking about SW. But immedietly dismiss it when talking about ST.

And you might also realize that if their suits aren't NBC shielded, then there's not much of a point in keeping on the helmets either. Basically, if their suits were able to hold out the virus, then they were acting extremely stupid. If the suits weren't, then they didn't do anything wrong.

Couple that with you having no evidence for your position and the conclusion becomes pretty obvious.

[Kane Starkiller]

But I have provided evidence. Episode 2 proves that suits are hermetically sealed and that they can operate in vacuum for some time thus they have an internal reserve of air.
We also saw that two of the four clones removed their helmets before they checked for air and the commander did not order them not to remove the helmet. Thus the commander also didn't consider them to be in danger.
The only question is whether the other two also removed their helmets off screen.
Since we know that suits are hermetically sealed and we know neither the clones nor the commander thought they were in danger, otherwise he would have ordered them not to remove the helmet then the most likely scenario is that they removed their helmets as well.
In any case since we know that suits are hermetically sealed it's up to you to prove that they left the helmets on at all times.

[l33telboi]

But I have provided evidence. Episode 2 proves that suits are hermetically sealed and that they can operate in vacuum for some time thus they have an internal reserve of air.

This is evidence of them having sealed suits and an internal air supply, yes. Apparently a very limited air-supply, meaning you can't rely on internal air in a situation which the clones were in. That means they had to switch to processing the outside air, and apparently whatever filters the suits have just aren't good enough to filter out this virus.

We also saw that two of the four clones removed their helmets before they checked for air and the commander did not order them not to remove the helmet.

True so far.

Thus the commander also didn't consider them to be in danger.

Not necessarily. It's also possible he realized that the suits would not provide protection against the virus. So removing the headgear or not wouldn't have made a difference. All in all, your suggestion posits that the clones are extremely dumb, which I consider evidence against your theory.

The only question is whether the other two also removed their helmets off screen.

Nothing suggests it. Other things suggests the opposite.

In any case since we know that suits are hermetically sealed it's up to you to prove that they left the helmets on at all times.

Could you be any more obvious about trying to shift the burden of proof?

Debating 101: You make claim, you carry the burden of proof. You claimed the clones removed their helmets at some point, you now have to prove this. There is nothing to suggest as much, but there is evidence to suggest the opposite. Ergo, your theory is forfeit until you can find some support for it.

[Kane Starkiller]

Since you admitted that their suits are sealed we are otherwise in agreement as to what are potential reasons for their infection.

[l33telboi]

Since you admitted that their suits are sealed we are otherwise in agreement as to what are potential reasons for their infection.

The potential reason most likely being that their suits don't take well to coming under chemical attack.

[ILikeDeathNote]

By the way in the last episode when one of the clones first checks the computer and realizes that the room is contaminated two of the clones already had their helmets off. Thus it is perfectly possible that all of them were careless enough to take the helmets off before making sure.

There's nothing to suggest as much and no evidence for it. Rex had his helmet on when they jumped through the door and he had it on afterwards as well. The whole thing would make the clones rather inept. Who in their right mind goes and removes their protective gear before making sure they're in no risk of getting killed by something like that?

Actually I would have to go with Kane Starkiller on this one. The room was described as a "safe room" so that the Clonetroopers and Asoka were expecting to be safe, thus there was a reasonable expectation on being safe with a helmet off. We never saw any Clonetroopers take their helmets off after it was deemed no longer safe, nor were we able to confirm the status of Clonetroopers who still had their helmets on.


However, this only brings up a whole 'nuther issue. When the Clonetroopers raced to close the door and seal the room from the virus, we could clearly visibly see some of the virus escape into the room, as what I believe Mr. Orugahn described as "having a finger pinched off" or something to that effect. It was clearly visible, and unless the clones were either not paying any attention whatsoever or are just completely ignorant as to how airborne pathogens work, there was no way they would have been ignorant of the contamination until having to be told by sensors.

This raises a rather troubling competence issue of the Clonetroopers and Asoka (who admittedly doesn't come off as very bright anyway).

[2046]

By the way in the last episode when one of the clones first checks the computer and realizes that the room is contaminated two of the clones already had their helmets off. Thus it is perfectly possible that all of them were careless enough to take the helmets off before making sure.

Illogical. Why would the suited trooper say the suited ones were dead, too? Why would the clonetrooper stay behind in the safety chamber when Galactic Senate Representative Binks and Galactic Senator Amidala were going off to face a lab complex full of battle droids?

The theory makes no sense in the context of the episode, but again I applaud the creativity.

[2046]

Episode 2 proves that suits are hermetically sealed and that they can operate in vacuum for some time thus they have an internal reserve of air.

The suits are said to be merely a "pressure suit", but that is all. While that implies a seal, it does not necessarily imply that external air cannot get in.

And really, the argument can be made that the incident you describe did not happen in a vacuum.


This one works better in full motion, but you can see the smoke trails. You're also seeing an engine headed in the general direction of the camera with a billowing plume of smoke blowing toward behind it, as if it is flaming debris shooting through air.


Note that the headlights are not only producing light scatter, but that near the light source the scatter against atmosphere is strong enough to white out the area.


The uniformed clones scream exiting the pod, and at least one even takes a breath to scream some more when roughly alongside the round base of the pod-hunter. They stop screaming at the location given above.


Headlights don't do that in vacuum.

Now, the whole thing is likely merely a stylistic choice, a la Voyager coming out of the sun in the Voyager credits. However, it makes sense in the light of the virus infection.

[Kane Starkiller]

The suits are said to be merely a "pressure suit", but that is all. While that implies a seal, it does not necessarily imply that external air cannot get in.

If the air cannot get out (and it can't otherwise they would suffocate) then external air won't be getting in where there is no large pressure differential.

As for whether they are in vacuum just what do you think was the source of the atmosphere? Zero gravity was observed within the debris field so what would provide counterforce for the air pressure? The air would simply disperse into surrounding space until pressure was equalized. Isn't it more likely that there were some sort of reflective particles within the debris field. Frozen coolant or water particles from the destroyed ships that reflected and scattered light?

[2046]

The suits are said to be merely a "pressure suit", but that is all. While that implies a seal, it does not necessarily imply that external air cannot get in.

If the air cannot get out (and it can't otherwise they would suffocate) then external air won't be getting in where there is no large pressure differential.

It's called a valve. A simple mechanical valve that gets blown shut when interior pressure is higher than exterior would be of value.

In any case, though, my main point is simply that you cannot declare trooper armor to be vacuum-worthy based on the podhunter episode.

Further, given that you have contradictory indications regarding trooper armor (not airtight one minute, a pressure suit in the next), then you can either assume variants of the trooper armor (an extra entity where only one is obvious) or something minor like a valve or pressure-related (doesn't even have to be electronic) inflation (also an extra entity).

A third option would simply be that they used the SW equivalent of duct tape in the pod to seal up the gaps in the armor before going outside. Frankly that idea seems pretty damn good to me, but as we did not see any evidence of that I thus lean away from it.

Hence my statement that we ought not draw final conclusions until more evidence is forthcoming, because no answer is perfect and, most importantly, the series continues.

As for whether they are in vacuum just what do you think was the source of the atmosphere?

Why should I care?

Frozen coolant or water particles from the destroyed ships that reflected and scattered light?

That would be an absurd concentration. Further, how do you get a guy to inhale such things for the additional screaming we heard?