Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

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Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:22 pm

I am offloading some work I won't be using on another project. As you may recall, I had a project involving thorough documentation and analysis of assorted works. I had started working on Disney Canon stuff initially, but won't be bothering now … hence the "Disney Dump" in the title.

This one was pretty short as there wasn't much tech-relevant info, and is incomplete, besides.

Standby for follow-up.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:32 pm

As before, conversion to BBCode is screwy, lacking nested levels of info and such, but here we go …

Insider - One Thousand Levels Down

Code: Select all

Much to learn, we still have.
One Thousand Levels Down (Star Wars Insider #151)

Distressingly, character and other names are spelled in numerous ways throughout this short work, most notably Santiago/Santigo, Pau'an/Upau'an/Utpau'an (all of which seem to refer to Utapauan, as in someone from Utapau).The notes below are named based on taking what is available and making a best-guess of which extant spelling was the most intended.

Chronological Notes


This story occurs shortly after the destruction of Alderaan.It seems to cover many days, though curiously there is no reference to the destruction of the Death Star in that time.

Galactography



World - Coruscant
Region - Level 3204

p. 53:"First- and second-generation" Alderaanian immigrants had built a community on Level 3204, with businesses of their own and even imports from Alderaan.

Other Technology

Communications

Comm and Data Tools

Holographic Snapshot

p. 53:Along with children's toys and "handwritten letters", these were brought as relics of Alderaan into the Coruscanti streets for the vigils after the planet's destruction.

There is no medium referred to in reference to the snapshots or letters.For the latter we could imagine "flimsi" paper or handwriting on a digital tablet.

Interstellar Communications

HoloNet

p. 53:In the aftermath of Alderaan, "official statements and pirate newsfeeds" discussed it, and eventually, over the course of "days", both "converged" on the truth that the planet was destroyed by the Empire.

p. 53:Coruscantis "watched the news".


Materials


Other Notes


p. 53:A restaurant on Level 2142 serves wrapped "greasy packets of meat and cheese" . . . a tantalizingly close description of a cheeseburger, though there's no reference to bread.


Political Notes


p. 53:Level 3204 had a number of Alderaanian immigrants, noted as first or second generation.Vigils began but as the days passed and the information came out that Alderaan was destroyed by the Empire, these became riots.The Empire responded in the expected fashion, with arrests and murders and "relocation".This was apparently a common practice, as one person speaks of their appropriation of a speeder after its owner's species was relocated years before.



p. 53:There is reference to Alderaanian immigrants living on Coruscant in the subsurface underworld, specified as being "first- and second-generation".This brings up several points.

1.All indications are that Alderaan is a peaceful paradise, and what little we've seen suggests a beautiful world.It is not apparent why large numbers would choose to move to another planet's subterranean areas.

The American immigration experience, for instance, featured people clustering in city areas called Little Italy and Chinatown for a variety of reasons including language and cultural barriers, mutual defense against governmental or labor corruption, and ease of trade of the mother country's goods.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:55 pm

So in a moment of weakness, you did start to accumulate facts from a Disney-published source? :P

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:26 pm

Weakness? No. Early confusion? Yes.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:17 pm

Almost a sinner.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:11 pm

Subscribing to the Disney Canon is no more a sin than subscribing to the Expanded Universe back in the day. Indeed, one could argue it is the same thing. The problem back then was when certain people tried to claim their preference of treating the EU as Lucas canon equivalent facts as an objective fact. I demonstrably and unequivocably won that fight at CanonWars.

Now the issue is that, just as the EU didn't resemble the Star Wars of George Lucas, so too does the new EU-filled Disney Canon not resemble it. Thus, one's options are to follow it as the next best thing to real Star Wars or to consider the matter closed. Per Disney, the Lucas canon is immovable, so obviously efforts to modify it with new convoluted stories of intentional design flaws and contradictions with ANH are . . . well, suffice it to say that there are still two universes, in my opinion.

Those who wish to enjoy the new Star-Wars-brand stories are welcome to them. I am going to keep doing what I have been doing for years and analyze the Star Wars story as told by George Lucas.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:35 pm

2046 wrote:Subscribing to the Disney Canon is no more a sin than subscribing to the Expanded Universe back in the day. Indeed, one could argue it is the same thing. The problem back then was when certain people tried to claim their preference of treating the EU as Lucas canon equivalent facts as an objective fact. I demonstrably and unequivocably won that fight at CanonWars.

Now the issue is that, just as the EU didn't resemble the Star Wars of George Lucas, so too does the new EU-filled Disney Canon not resemble it. Thus, one's options are to follow it as the next best thing to real Star Wars or to consider the matter closed. Per Disney, the Lucas canon is immovable, so obviously efforts to modify it with new convoluted stories of intentional design flaws and contradictions with ANH are . . . well, suffice it to say that there are still two universes, in my opinion.

Those who wish to enjoy the new Star-Wars-brand stories are welcome to them. I am going to keep doing what I have been doing for years and analyze the Star Wars story as told by George Lucas.
Lucas' canon essentially is the Old Testament which remains now both valid, acknowledged and amaneded. After the Council of the Castle, the authority was transfered to the Walt Disney Company, also known as Disney, so they would now establish the New Testament as part of a progressive work for the several decades to come.
As a reminder, the New Testament has been a continuous work of updated and amended texts of the centuries.
At the present time, the current ecclesiastical power in the name of Disney has absolute powers to define what is canon and what is not and has decided to set in stone the older canon, Lucas' canon, thought as immovable.
The EU-management branch at LucasFilm Ltd. seemed to have a similar power although it was vague enough to be relegated to something akin to a technical device, a mere continuity management tool trying to do its best between two bodies of content. In the end, the EU never was anointed. Lucas remained the sole Pope and never attributed any meaningful value to the EU aside a financial one, much to the regret of the later that kept behaving both like an abused spouse and a Son in search desperate validation from his uninterested Holy Father.
The Son later got sacrificed for the ushering of a new age of merchandising.
The Disney canon is a reborn EU with the effective power it always craved.
I would also point out that the Lucas canon also had its own bloat of internal disconnections.

All in all, I don't care. Analyzing both canons separately is fine. We also perfectly know that the Disney canon answers to no genuine artistic motive at all and only bothers to "be true" as a matter of acceptance from both old and young crowds.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:11 am

"Amended" and "immovable" contradict.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:04 pm

2046 wrote:"Amended" and "immovable" contradict.
It's the Disney canon that is and will be constantly updated with newer materials. Lucas canon won't, it's fixed.
Also, if we were to rely on a legal perspective, amendments to the Constitution are additionnal texts; the same principle was used by the Catholic Church to add material to the OT, regrouped within the NT. For example, the NT identifies and officially declares the son and man who was prophetized in the OT.
Nevertheless, the Disney canon is establishing its own interpretations regarding the Lucas canon and expands upon it. That's all it does, fundamentally.
And if any grave contradiction is spotted by the fans, Disney is just going to pretend it does not exist or say that it does not matter, nothing is perfect and pull a hundred examples from many other packs of movies and shows that were far from being totally consistent.
In fact, stating that the Lucas canon is immovable is simply stating the fact: this part cannot evolve anymore because G. Lucas has no input unto it anymore.
Obviously, since Disney were buying Star Wars and weren't trying to remake or reboot the licence, they just froze the former canonical material in a slab of carbonite and put it on display.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:28 am

So basically, I'm a Jew. I can live with that. The alt-reich already disapproves of me so why not add that to the list. ;-)

The crux of your argument is that the new ownership confers amendment rights to old work. I do not disagree . . . nothing is stopping Disney from making an Extra-Special Edition with Special Sauce and a Special Cherry On Top (with special guest appearances by Aladdin, Mickey Mouse, et cetera), for instance. I simply don't see how that impedes my point.

Also, the implication that Disney is the only one making a new canon and that this act is sufficient to confer validity over Jewish alternatives is . . . odd.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:07 pm

2046 wrote:So basically, I'm a Jew. I can live with that. The alt-reich already disapproves of me so why not add that to the list. ;-)
But a bad Jew, for how can Disney make shekels if youssa not gonna approve of the new toy lines???????
The crux of your argument is that the new ownership confers amendment rights to old work. I do not disagree . . . nothing is stopping Disney from making an Extra-Special Edition with Special Sauce and a Special Cherry On Top (with special guest appearances by Aladdin, Mickey Mouse, et cetera), for instance. I simply don't see how that impedes my point.

Also, the implication that Disney is the only one making a new canon and that this act is sufficient to confer validity over Jewish alternatives is . . . odd.
Well, this is serious business mixed to sweet money and, above all, intellectual property, a thing that doesn't exist in most religions.
I personnally don't really care who goes with what, but if one is to acknowledge and use the new Disney movies, for the sake of consistency between sets of evidence, it would seem logical to stick to their canon. You stuck to Lucas' own words, now people are going to stick to Disney's official announcements.
But you can walk another path, remain a purist, things have never changed there.
I'm neither pro or against Disney's canon. The licence is theirs now, even if I think it's nothing more than glorified rewashed EU.
There is however a bit of irony with you basing a significant part of your argument on a statement made by Disney. This more than implies that you recognize their authority on canonical matters. Amirite?

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:28 pm

I don't use the new movies, so I'm good by the standard in your second paragraph.

As for the last bit, you aren't 'rite'. Any canon policy statement is necessarily extracanonical. Thus, whether Lucas had said "only my work is canon" before the sale or if Disney declares his immovable and their own new canon afterward, it is the same issue and same result.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:21 am

2046 wrote:As for the last bit, you aren't 'rite'. Any canon policy statement is necessarily extracanonical.
Just a pause here. I think it's an obvious statement, of which I'm not sure seeing the point, but perhaps you were thinking of something more elusive?
Thus, whether Lucas had said "only my work is canon" before the sale or if Disney declares his immovable and their own new canon afterward, it is the same issue and same result.
Lucas' statement had its own temporal validity by the time he was the owner and final definer of what is canon. This is not the case anymore. Sad or not, I think Disney's statements carry the same value now than Lucas' words back then.
Lucas signing the deal himself carries a lot of weight here. He definitely relinquished all authority on the complete modern Star Wars.
That said, nothing prevents anyone like you to remain a faithful Lucasite, but it's going to be an isolated position. Contrary to the past, Disney is at the top now, they're not some EU manager trying to tie both ends and desperately pandering to daddy.
On purely academical grounds, you'll claim that Lucas' canon and Disney's are divergent, but from Disney's perspective, they are not. And their perspective is the definitive and official word today. Plus, to add to that, there's an older canon that Disney acknowledged, but they see it as part of a whole, a modern vision wherein new material offers new interpretations of older material.

Also, to comment on the "immovable" part.
To me, Disney also meant that Lucas' canon won't be rewritten. That's why it immovable. It's a solid core. They could have said no, let's reboot some stuff, ignore episode I, etc. But they didn't, as it would be largely hurtful to their project and business, simply because Lucas' canon is too fresh.
Had such a deal been signed fifty years from now, I wouldn't be so sure that the owner of the licence wouldn't be tempted by rebooting the movies, softly or not.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:44 pm

Ugh.

You are the one who claimed it is ironic that I reference Disney's statements, yes?

I pointed out that it wasn't.

I am the originator of the rank concepts in this context so the yellow text paragraph is preaching to the preacher, and unrequired because it has nothing to do with what I said.

Finally, you contradict yourself on the "immovable" aspect, as they are effectively rewriting the immovable.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:07 pm

Perhaps there's some incomprehension going on here.
I don't get it. At the beginning, you were "confused" and accepted the new material, Disney's production.
Then you changed minds.
I agree that one could say they are two universes. After all, when an entire set of artistic material mainly comes out of the brain of one person and is produced under the supervision and influence of said person, one can easily say that this is the person's universe. We could look at comics for that matter.
The particularity with SW is that it started with Lucas, so that grants his universe in Star Wars a certain glory and respect.
The rest of Disney's productions will be an infusion of several minds brought together ad hoc and perhaps be disjointed to some degree in styles but not necessarily in story. Through Marvel, it has been shown that it is possible to produce a modern a vast encompassing cinematic universe such as the MCU that even bleeds into the TV realm.
Going back to your former post, I'm hitting some rock on that part:
You wrote: Now the issue is that, just as the EU didn't resemble the Star Wars of George Lucas, so too does the new EU-filled Disney Canon not resemble it. Thus, one's options are to follow it as the next best thing to real Star Wars or to consider the matter closed. Per Disney, the Lucas canon is immovable, so obviously efforts to modify it with new convoluted stories of intentional design flaws and contradictions with ANH are . . . well, suffice it to say that there are still two universes, in my opinion.
But they are nnot modifying it. In fact, you even acknowledge that they keep that precursor Lucas-universe as an immovable core.
All they are doing is adding material around that core and building a whole new core too. In details, they are forcing interpretations, perhaps new interpretations, of what has happened in the original Lucas canon, to the detriment of fan theories and random headcanons. But they surely are not modifying it. The only way they could do that would be through remakes.

As for the irony, what stoke me was your reference to a statement from the Disney company, which meant that you had to grant said company an authoritative voice in defining what is canon or not. Otherwise you'd be treating their words as nothing more than opinions. The thing is, if you recognize the new authority, then said authority has also made it clear about what is canonical now.

I think the stance of only Lucas' works are canonical is something of the past now.

Besides, at the risk of repeating myself:
Subscribing to the Disney Canon is no more a sin than subscribing to the Expanded Universe back in the day. Indeed, one could argue it is the same thing. The problem back then was when certain people tried to claim their preference of treating the EU as Lucas canon equivalent facts as an objective fact. I demonstrably and unequivocably won that fight at CanonWars.
They are not the same thing. Lucas' opinion about what is canon or not has become a headcanon, his headcanon, the day he abandonned all privileges regarding that topic for a nice big cheque of more than four billion dollars.

What does that mean? Anyone is free to focus on Lucas' works only (headcanon, creator canon, purist canon, whatever you call it), but the only current supreme authority to have a say in what is canon and what isn't has spoken: Lucas' canon is only a part of the whole canon now. It may suck, but that's the way it is.
So you cannot limit yourself to Lucas' works on the basis of canonical statements because you'd then have to accept the latest official statements and those are absolutely clear. You can only reject new official canon by rejecting Disney's authority on said matters. That's the simple technical truth.

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