Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

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2046
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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:07 pm

Your broader confusion rests on two misunderstandings, as I see it:

1. That modifying and changing the Lucas canon can only be done via release of direct revisions to his material, a la the Extra-Special Edition joke from earlier. This is not true. Stories can be altered by revising via a prequel, for instance.

2. That somehow rejecting the Disney Canon means the Disney statements on canon must also be rejected. Again, this is untrue. Their statements are being followed but are in self-contradictory conflict.

This is little different than if I rejected the GCSN stuff yet acknowledged that Licensing had made it. I don't have to act like Licensing couldn't make internal policy. That's absurd.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:33 pm

2046 wrote:Your broader confusion rests on two misunderstandings, as I see it:

1. That modifying and changing the Lucas canon can only be done via release of direct revisions to his material, a la the Extra-Special Edition joke from earlier. This is not true. Stories can be altered by revising via a prequel, for instance.

2. That somehow rejecting the Disney Canon means the Disney statements on canon must also be rejected. Again, this is untrue. Their statements are being followed but are in self-contradictory conflict.

This is little different than if I rejected the GCSN stuff yet acknowledged that Licensing had made it. I don't have to act like Licensing couldn't make internal policy. That's absurd.
The relations between Lucas and Licensing is simply not the same as what we have now. That must be made very clear. The supreme authority of yesteryear has simply abdicated and relinquished its entire set of privileges and power to another entity. I cannot stress enough how this is literally apples and oranges with the situation that existed before the buyout between Lucas and Licensing and Lucas' canon and the EU.
In fact, what happened with the sale to Disney is as if Lucas had sold all his rights to Licensing.

1. It was a position that I somehow agreed with at first glance until it just dawned on me that since the material is simply not changed, then something else must, and it's our interpretation of said material that is. But our interpretation is in no way part of the canon.
The "story" as we understand it is precisely the combination of the material and out interpretation. As such it is not canonical. Only the source material is.
Besides, as far as contradictions go, I haven't seen anything very blatant from TFA and am still to watch R1 so I'll judge on that later on (not that it would matter much regarding what is canonical or not).

Besides, we shouldn't at a single moment believe that the Lucas canon was free of contradiction and even severe problems such as the introduction of Qui-Gon Jinn.

2. I think that, above all, it really boils down to what we understand by immovable, right? If that is the contradiction you're thinking of. Obviously, to Disney, it didn't mean our that understanding of the initial canon wouldn't change. It was a more pragmatical and technical notion, as I described earlier regarding clear alterations to the original material.
Then again, this immovable attribute they decided of could very well be debunked the day they decide to release an Extra-Special-Turbo Edition Deluxe of the OT and PT. They're the masters now, that's the point, and Lucas himself acknowledged and validated that, all post-buyout rantings aside.
The canon is now defined by Disney. That's the official position and the only one that counts if one is going to invoke canon as the basis of any argumentation.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:43 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The relations between Lucas and Licensing is simply not the same as what we have now. That must be made very clear. The supreme authority of yesteryear has simply abdicated and relinquished its entire set of privileges and power to another entity. I cannot stress enough how this is literally apples and oranges with the situation that existed before the buyout between Lucas and Licensing and Lucas' canon and the EU.
Were you in some way confused about that? I have no idea why you're saying it otherwise, as I have no confusion on the topic.
1. It was a position that I somehow agreed with at first glance until it just dawned on me that since the material is simply not changed, then something else must, and it's our interpretation of said material that is. But our interpretation is in no way part of the canon.
Correct, interpretation is not canon. However, I would caution against being overly liberal with the concept of "interpretation". It can all too easily dive headlong into a completely subjectivist words-mean-nothing mish-mash of nonsense.
Besides, as far as contradictions go, I haven't seen anything very blatant from TFA and am still to watch R1 so I'll judge on that later on (not that it would matter much regarding what is canonical or not).
There's an ongoing multi-page thread at TF.Net about how R1 runs counter to ANH. I'm reviewing it.
Besides, we shouldn't at a single moment believe that the Lucas canon was free of contradiction and even severe problems such as the introduction of Qui-Gon Jinn.
Yes, but TPM wasn't the explicit result of a merger between two universes.
2. I think that, above all, it really boils down to what we understand by immovable, right? If that is the contradiction you're thinking of. Obviously, to Disney, it didn't mean our that understanding of the initial canon wouldn't change. It was a more pragmatical and technical notion, as I described earlier regarding clear alterations to the original material.
Then again, this immovable attribute they decided of could very well be debunked the day they decide to release an Extra-Special-Turbo Edition Deluxe of the OT and PT. They're the masters now, that's the point, and Lucas himself acknowledged and validated that, all post-buyout rantings aside.
The canon is now defined by Disney. That's the official position and the only one that counts if one is going to invoke canon as the basis of any argumentation.
Again, you basically miss the point and reject it on that basis. No one is debating that Disney is the rights-holder now. How many times must that be reiterated?

At issue is that they deemed his universe to be the Lucas canon, they called it immovable and that to which things must align, they acknowledged that the EU was separate from it and always was, and then said they were making new canon that would mix the two universes, and that the new canon can override Lucas for the purposes of the new canon.

Just like the old days, that makes it a self-referential entity, divergent from the immovable source material . . . inevitably, given the mixture of two divergent universes.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:57 pm

2046 wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The relations between Lucas and Licensing is simply not the same as what we have now. That must be made very clear. The supreme authority of yesteryear has simply abdicated and relinquished its entire set of privileges and power to another entity. I cannot stress enough how this is literally apples and oranges with the situation that existed before the buyout between Lucas and Licensing and Lucas' canon and the EU.
Were you in some way confused about that? I have no idea why you're saying it otherwise, as I have no confusion on the topic.
Actually to me it seemed that you didn't recognize that reality; so we may be agreeing but for some reason not reaching each other's hand.
Besides, as far as contradictions go, I haven't seen anything very blatant from TFA and am still to watch R1 so I'll judge on that later on (not that it would matter much regarding what is canonical or not).
There's an ongoing multi-page thread at TF.Net about how R1 runs counter to ANH. I'm reviewing it.
Ah, interesting. Mind you, I think Disney is far worse than Licensing. They're not short of a botched work, only concerned about the monies. The holders have no artistic talent whatsoever. Lucas did and that was important.
Besides, we shouldn't at a single moment believe that the Lucas canon was free of contradiction and even severe problems such as the introduction of Qui-Gon Jinn.
Yes, but TPM wasn't the explicit result of a merger between two universes.
Sure. Maybe that actually makes it worse? :/
2. I think that, above all, it really boils down to what we understand by immovable, right? If that is the contradiction you're thinking of. Obviously, to Disney, it didn't mean our that understanding of the initial canon wouldn't change. It was a more pragmatical and technical notion, as I described earlier regarding clear alterations to the original material.
Then again, this immovable attribute they decided of could very well be debunked the day they decide to release an Extra-Special-Turbo Edition Deluxe of the OT and PT. They're the masters now, that's the point, and Lucas himself acknowledged and validated that, all post-buyout rantings aside.
The canon is now defined by Disney. That's the official position and the only one that counts if one is going to invoke canon as the basis of any argumentation.
Again, you basically miss the point and reject it on that basis. No one is debating that Disney is the rights-holder now. How many times must that be reiterated?

At issue is that they deemed his universe to be the Lucas canon, they called it immovable and that to which things must align, they acknowledged that the EU was separate from it and always was, and then said they were making new canon that would mix the two universes, and that the new canon can override Lucas for the purposes of the new canon.

Just like the old days, that makes it a self-referential entity, divergent from the immovable source material . . . inevitably, given the mixture of two divergent universes.
I'll stop pretending I understand what you say then and ask you to refine your position regarding that divergence please.
I may just add that in its very beginning, the EU wasn't exactly divergent.

And, to be clearer on the point, I have no issue with people not wanting to fiddle with the new material. However, from the beginning –and maybe I was reading between the lines too much– I got the feeling that although you acknowledged that Disney claimed being the sole definer and purveyor of the real, unique and one canon, you rejected the canonical status of that non-Lucas-made material (non-Lucas canon IOW), or at least considered it inferior, on principles similar to those used some time ago to reject the EU or at least dethrone it.
From Disney's position, I don't think they say that Lucas' canon stands atop anything new that will be made. If that is so, then at the very least the new materials stand on equal levels with the old ones (Lucas' stuff). The later even occupying a precarious position as far as we know.
Then again I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it seems to be the objective status now. Victors write the histor... erm, I mean IP holders write the canon.

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Re: Disney Dump 1 - 1000 Levels Down

Post by 2046 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:41 am

You're getting a little warmer but still missing the mark pretty substantially. I have an idea for visual aids so when I have time will try to make some.

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