"Star Wars: Death Star" and the destruction of Ald

For reviews and close examination of sources - episode reviews, book reviews, raves and rants about short stories, et cetera.
Post Reply
User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:00 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:Does anyone else in science mention "exotic" chain reactions that can blow up planets? Interesting how you can immediately accept that yet this simple conversion formula is completely unacceptable because it's not used in real science books even though there is nothing mathematically wrong with it.
Interesting how you accept that every “human” in SW speak English, that almost all the races encountered are humanoid, that when they say “injured” they mean the same thing we do.
That notions like “power” and “energy” are used in the same way as we do, even when talking about “strange and exotic” reactions.
How you accept that to them, the attraction planets exert on humans is also called “gravity”, since they use “antigrav” devices to fight it.
Strange how you accept the notion that every single reference to “human” concepts made by SW means exactly the same thing it means to us “earthlings” (even when describing the most exotic effects using decidedly human words), but that the instant you cannot, nay, will not, accept one such aspect, that you try to find a new way for an otherwise very “human” and very scientific concept to be interpreted…

User avatar
SailorSaturn13
Bridge Officer
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:45 am

Post by SailorSaturn13 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:04 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Praethomin wrote:And everybody else's point is that no one in science uses fractions with logarithmic values...

In optics, the power levels of lasers are mentioned in dBm or in Watts, but whenever someone says "cut the power of this laser by half", they don't mean half the dB value, but half the actual power in Watts, or 3dB less then its original value.
Does anyone else in science mention "exotic" chain reactions that can blow up planets? Interesting how you can immediately accept that yet this simple conversion formula is completely unacceptable because it's not used in real science books even though there is nothing mathematically wrong with it.
In 100 years, physical laws will change. But despite this, "one third" will still be linear.

The Elder Dwoof
Padawan
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:36 pm
Location: Behind you. Boo!

Post by The Elder Dwoof » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:51 pm

SailorSaturn13 wrote:
In 100 years, physical laws will change. But despite this, "one third" will still be linear.
Um...care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure that "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reacton" isn't going to change, even in 100 years. Our KNOWLEDGE of the physics BEHIND physical laws may advance, but the acutal laws themselves are immutable (Einstein's Relativity, for example, was a paradigm shift in our UNDERSTANDING of physical laws, but the laws themselves didn't change, our understanding simply became more precise.

User avatar
SailorSaturn13
Bridge Officer
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:45 am

Post by SailorSaturn13 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:08 pm

The Elder Dwoof wrote:
SailorSaturn13 wrote:
In 100 years, physical laws will change. But despite this, "one third" will still be linear.
Um...care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure that "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reacton" isn't going to change, even in 100 years. Our KNOWLEDGE of the physics BEHIND physical laws may advance, but the acutal laws themselves are immutable (Einstein's Relativity, for example, was a paradigm shift in our UNDERSTANDING of physical laws, but the laws themselves didn't change, our understanding simply became more precise.
Yes, I meant laws as they stay in textbooks. Of course, laws of nature won't, and 1/3 remains 1/3.

User avatar
SailorSaturn13
Bridge Officer
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:45 am

Post by SailorSaturn13 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:38 pm

I never said this is exactly the mode in which logarithmic scales are used. But it can explain why 1/3 of power is actually many orders of magnitude less energetic than full power without resorting to completely undefined "exotic" reaction. Thus it is a superior explanation.
It is an INFERIOR ONE. I said that all along. Changing physics is preferable to botching canon. It IS preferable to change physics if it means that canon can be understood in normal, rather than absurd, meaning.
Why? You won't use the superlaser to target X-Wings will you? Thus it is perfectly reasonable that unless you need more than 10^25J you won't even fire the superlaser.
For someone to use such a scale the scale must exist very long, not being invented with a weapon.

Really "normal meaning"? When exactly have you been appointed the absolute ruler of Earth so that you alone can determine what is and is not "normal meaning"?
I did not create that meaning. Likewise I did not define that 2*2=4. I just KNOW it because I've read books on physics. I also know people dealing with decibels. NO ONE OF THEM, IN NO CIRCUMSTANSES understood "One third of power" like you do.

I have been very clear. 10W is not a third of 1000W but logarithmic value of 10W IS one third of logarithmic value of 1000W.
Exactly. logarithmic value (if expressed in Watts) is a third. But the quote said "power", not "value" or "scale value". And power, as you concede, isn't.

But if "1/3" of power is obviously not only 3 times smaller than full power an explanation must be found. Your answer is "exotic" reaction. Mine is a logarithmic scale which I actually mathematically defined.
Prove it isn't. No one said reaction must be proportional to shot power.

I have a better explanation: the full power isn't that big, bacause Alderaan and Despaire are actually very small planets, both 100-120 km in diameter. Then the energy to shatter them is in the same ballpark as to liquify them.
Last edited by SailorSaturn13 on Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:06 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Not the crust of the crescent. The atmosphere expands, that's all.
You are welcome to provide evidence that only the atmosphere expands.
Actually, it's up to you to prove that this happens.
But my job is rather easy, because while the atmospheric haze obviously lights up and gains several kilometers in thickness, it pretty much stops there. There's no ejecta to be seen on the other side of the planet, nor any matter flying away around that region of the crescent.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Geez. It is blue, because it's the fucking planet's atmosphere for crissake. If you watched the whole sequence, you'd notice that this blue doesn't grow out of the explosion, as if it was as hot as a blue star. No, this blue region is already there.
If you can't get that from the very picture you post, it's sad.
Besides, all other zones don't show any blue while they become superheated. It is not because some parts become super heated that they would automatically turn blue either.

Again, my point was not about claiming there were no parts of the planet being thrown into space. My point was that the other side of the planet didn't have its crust inflate and moved upwards.
What is this thing where you get angry if I don't accept your baseless assumptions? Yes it's blue. Superheated objects are blue. At a frame rate of 24/s it is easily possible that at one moment you'll see a bluish planet and in the next the planet is blue because it's matter is superheated. Try to understand that you claimed this is EVIDENCE for the supposed chain reaction so go ahead and prove it.
Of course, you're not moved by the mere fact that the main fireball at the point of explosion isn't even blue itself, yet somehow there rest of the planet, clearly not under the same level of destruction (a much lower one), would yet be heated up to tens of thousands kelvins (approx)?
It's impossible, as simple as that.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:My take on it was about the threshold caused by the saturation of the superlaser into an unique target. Call that CR or not, it's not important.
Your take is completely irrelevant unless you can offer a description of the mechanism and evidence.
Repeating the same point doesn't make it any better. You still make a fallacy by asking me the how it works from a physics pov while it's not required.
Any explanation would involve technobabble about exotic stuff, so there's no point going there.
Again, my claim is about probabilities and expected magnitude of effects, basically, not the peculiar physics behind the beam.

You understand the difference, right?
Oh, no, of course, it's been like six posts I've been talking to a wall.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Way to miss the point.
Can you care to actually read what people say?
It is most bizarre, as long as you ponder the lack of description about a super crater, massive ejecta or else, while there's enough energy dumped into the planet to cause massive earthquakes all across the planet.
That's why I liked the idea of the beam drilling the crust and depositing energy within the planet.
How is what you like in any way relevant? Why would every single detail need to be described in the book?
Probably for the same reason that it delivers many "details", and that a crater of that size would hardly be a detail.
So they didn't mention the crater so what? Secondly how exactly do you expect to drill all the way to the core without producing an enormous crater?
If I had to argue about crust drilling, I'd say NDF may have something to do there.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It explains nothing because it's very unclear and wrong even on the simple use of words and units.
It cannot be unclear since it is explicitly stated mathematical formula with all operators (log,=,+,^) mathematically defined. Secondly it isn't wrong since it correctly converts values from log to lin scale.
It is ridiculously complicated for any military personnel in charge of the operation not carrying a Ph.D in superlaser physics.

Besides, your scale doesn't fit with the following description of a low power strike:
Death Star novel wrote: Superlaser Fire Control, Theta Sectior , Death Star

They hadn't lied. The differences between the simulator and the real thing were negligble. There were more worn spots and scratches in the simulator, put there over months of drils, but the equipment was identical.

Despite all the training, Tenn was still a little nervous. This was the real thing ; from here, they could generate a pulse of pure destruction that was stronger than anything ever fired before. Amazing, and not a little intimidating. Not that he expected to ever fire the weapon at full power, certainly not to destroy an entire plant.
The whole idea, as he understood it, was that the threat would be more than enough. They'd probably disintegrate an uninhabited moon or two, just to prove they meant business, but the actual targets would be military-rebel bases, fleets, and the like.
For such as those, the superlaser would be a ridiculous amount of overkill, akin to frying a green flea with a turbolaser.

"You've been hands-on in the simulator, you've seen the reads, so I'm not breaking any big news here" his CO said, breaking Tenn's reverie.

"This is a monster gun, but it's not a repeater. You miss the first shot, you won't get another one on your shift."

Ten nodded. He'd asked about power storage first day on the simulator, and the enginers had fallen all over themselves backing away from thatone. But once he'd seen the numbers -- they had to keep those honest, even in sims -- he'd figured it out pretty quick.
The capacitors could hold enough juice to light upa planet, true enough, but once they discharged, they weren't going to be filling back up real quick. Once you shot the thing, you might as well turn off the lights and go take a long nap, because it wasn't going to be back up to full power for the better part of a day.
True, you could still pump out some pretty nasty low-power beams --- and the definition of low here was still bigger than what a Star Destroyer could manage, even letting all the hardware spit at once -- but it would be a duster instead of a buster. You could scorch a city or two, boil away a large lake or perhaps even a small sea, but that was about it.
The problem with your scale is that anything below 1.5/3 wouldn't be different, you'd still end with more than 10^25 joules, while the effects described above are much lower than that (Tenn's not even sure a low powered shot could vape a small sea).









Mr. Oragahn wrote:No, because the reaction in the reactor occurs in real space, and is a real space reaction. Hypermatter is even said as being constrained to real space (AOTC:ICS -- ouch).

Basically, the DS novel says it's still hypermatter, but the reactors aren't capable of the outputs claimed in the ICS.

You'll, of course, notice that with the output being capped as such, with the superlaser definitively made exotic in its higher outputs, and with the diameter of the station upped to 160 km instead of 120 km, any downscaling of energy density to the size of a core of an ISD will lead to much lower figures than the recent nonsensical stuff we got served with.
Oh yes, I'm sure you see the connection and that's why you can't stand it.
Quote and page number for AOTC:ICS please.
Oops.
It's from the DS book:
DS book wrote:His nephew, Hora Graneet, had been a navy spacer on the Imperial-class Star Destroyer Mark II class vessel, which had been selected for a shakedown cruise testing one of the improved prototype hypermatter reactors. Tenn didn't know the specifics of what had happened, and didn't have anything close to the math needed to understand it anyway. He knew that hypermatter existed only in hyperspace, that it was composed of tachyonic particles, and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace, produced near-limitless energy.
And the other quote:
DS book wrote:It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball of eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward.
This settles it rather clearly.
Again you simply restate your claim that hypermatter reactors aren't capable of the outputs claimed by the ICS even though novel explicitly states that hyperreactor provides the superluminal boost.
Oh, and you quantified said superluminal boost?

No you didn't, and no, you won't be able to. So saying that power levels are confirmed because an exotic phenomenon - requiring unknown amounts of power - happens, is perfectly absurd.
Secondly your accusation that "I can't stand the downscaling of power" could just as easily be turned on you. With much greater justification I might add since you mention AOTC:ICS hypermatter rector where it suits you yet continue to claim it's output figures are wrong. A hallmark of dishonesty. By the way could you provide the actual quote in question?
It doesn't matter. If I was correct on the claim that it came from the ICS, you'd have found yourself at pain with a rather unconfortable opposition.
But it doesn't matter anymore, since all comes from the book anyway.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh but the evidence thus far has clearly established that the output is capped, and alone can't reach planet busting levels without a very major help from hyperland.
You have established nothing other than claiming accelerating planetary mass faster than light is somehow less energy intense. The same goes for your baseless claims that "hyperland" will somehow "help" the planet get destroyed instead of being the other way around: you need energy to go to "hyperland".
And you know, of course, how matter is accelerated beyond c, and you can calculate the amount of required energy?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Ha, again, that one. It never gets old, doesn't it huh?
It may have never occured to Wong, nor you, that nowhere it implies that the energy figure mentionned is before the jump.
You do realize that it would be most stupid to generate star level of power just to make a microjump, right?
You also do realize that Star Wars' EU officially has trips that last weeks, if not more, and that any consumption relevant to travel is also relative to time and distance of said trip.
Of course, this totally flies above your head, because it's so much easier to get a fix of wank by swallowing completely nonsensical interpretation that disregards even most logical ways to measure total consumption.
The quote stats jump to hyperspace. Any additional travel time is neither considered nor included in the quote.
So you have found a quote that states "jump to hyperspace", and not anything that is like "hyperspace jump"?

Could we see that?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:There's nothing new. You can read many topics about the Death Star, I always considered, fundamentally, that it was both DET and exotic (for the extra energy).
It rather fits well with other bits of EU, notably how Han in Vector Prime thought only the Death Star could completely vapourize a 20 km wide rocknall.
That is Han's opinion. His opinions on Imperial military capabilities have shown to be unreliable.
Oh sure. He's been evading SDs for his lifetime, he's been an imperial guy for some time as well, he's been making several comments about the Empire's abilities even in the films.
So prove that he's not reliable.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You're conveniently missing the fact that I consider the book itself dispelling the idea that the reactor can produce planet busting levels of energy on its own. This has nothing to do with the fact that it could be right or wrong. It's just that you can't even see the evidence (from my point) I rely on to formulate the theory.
That's because you've provided no evidence whatsoever.
Bzzt. Wrong answer. It's just that you couldn't see where I was coming from. :)
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, I know. That's why I said the superluminal boost was another exotic effect.
Ah so we have "one exotic" effect and "another exotic" effects. And this is what "proves" Death Star is not "pure DET"? As I said you have absolutely nothing but your fantasies.
And as I said, you have surely properly identified the physics of hyperspace and mechanics of anything related to hyperdrives! :P
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That's lots of babble to evade the problem. Could you explain just simply why, while the superlaser would hit the surface and even heat up the atmosphere to some extent before hand, there'd be so much cool enough matter expelled ahead of the fireball, and why it would be dense enough to mask the much greater amount of super heated matter, and why that cooler matter supposedly sitting above wouldn't actually spread over the surface of the planet, instead of just rising vertically into the sky as you claim?
If anything, the cooler matter would be expelled sideways, with any superheated matter going up, only to be preceded by a nearby atmosphere already on fire.
Your claims don't make any sense.
They don't make any sense to you perhaps. The most superheated matter will be expelled the highest even into vaccum where it will coll down much faster than the superheated matter still in the atmosphere. Thus it could appear from distance after some time as if there is a dark spot over where superlaser hit. In any case you yourself offered no alternative explanation what it is or how is it caused. You are predictably claiming that any unexplaind phenomenon somehow supports your "theory" which you don't even have.
Please read again. I merely noticed another bizarre effect.

And you of course think I'm going to believe that the amount of matter that would be kicked far enough of the planet to cool down would remain dense and packed enough above the point of impact to considerably mask it, nevermind matter expanding and, if again caught by the gravity, hardly going to fall back into place considering the turmoil underneath. But yes, your idea is that the explosion lifts off a sort of super heated plate of matter, and that this plate conveniently remains compressed, while it starts to cool down.
Any matter falling back into the atmosphere would be heated up again. DET stipulates that an energy already superior to the teraton range is deposited at a single spot. This amount of energy will take a hell of a time to cool down.

The only way for such a thing to happen would be to have most of the energy deposited into the core, with a minimal amount of bleedoff through the crust and the atmosphere. That way, the beam would kick a lot of matter up without heating it up too much, while somehow, the atmosphere would feed the expand wall of fire.

It is even more suspicious, because the whole chain of events happens rather fast, actually.

Again:
A flash of pale green glimmered briefly from the holo.
The room shook, vibrating enough to rattle the chairs. She felt her viscera become momentarily buoyant, and realized that the ship's gravity field had flickered.
"What is that?" Memah stood, fighting sudden, inexplicable panic. After all, what could possibly pose a danger to—
Ratua held up a hand to quiet her. Those green eyes watched the 'proj. "Wait a second," he said. "Something's wrong."
The image of the planet Despayre seemed to shiver as a thin beam of emerald green—nearly the same color as Ratua's eyes, she thought— from off the edge of the 'proj lanced into the center of the single huge continent.
They both watched disbelievingly as an orange spot blossomed on the image of the planet. It seemed no bigger than Memah's thumbnail at first, but it grew rapidly, spreading in an expanding circle. The center of the orange turned black.
"Kark," Ratua said. He sounded stunned.
"What? What is it?"
"They—they're firing at the planet. With the superlaser."
The orange and black spread in irregular waves now, continuing outward from the center. The blue of the ocean didn't even slow it down.
"The atmosphere's on fire," Ratua said. Calmly, as if he were discussing the weather. Going to be a warm day today, temperature around five thousand degrees . . .
She felt a horrifying urge to laugh. It didn't seem real—it couldn't be real. Ratua must've tuned in to some future-fic holo by mistake. It wasn't a real planet she was watching burn. No. Things like that just didn't happen.
Memah stared at the image. She could not look away.
The reaction happens extremely fast, in real time.
Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
SailorSaturn13
Bridge Officer
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:45 am

Post by SailorSaturn13 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:21 pm

Generally Kane claims that having an "exotic"(unknown) reaction is bad. It isn't. We don't know how hyperdrive works, and we don't know how planetbusting works. It's normal for imaginary universes.
But Kane suggest a thing that is absurd. In sciense, no explanation is extremely more preferable to absurd explanation.
Therefore explanation "three times the first shot power provides effects much more bigger due to unknown mechanism" is 1000 times better than "a third of power was used here in a meaning that is absurd, never was, never is, and virtually 100% will never be used in that meaning anywhere."

SpanishInquisitor
Candidate
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:54 pm

About Alderaan and the DS...

Post by SpanishInquisitor » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:49 pm

Hi all!

I'm a long time lurker, and this is my first post here. Sorry in advance for my bad English.

I'm in the camp that all visual evidence cannot be taken literally, and over analyzing frame by frame special effects done in a budget/deadline and made for artistic effect or entertainment value is a mistake. Looking at quotes of SW authors, it seems that most (beginning with Lucas himself) agree to that.

Anyway...reading the infamous Sarli's Jedi Council 94 thread at the wotc site, I found this reference some time ago:

Dark Empire Sourcebook p.125 (about Planetary Shields, bold is mine):
Instead of weakening a shield, the superlaser is able to pierce through it by using a coupled neutrino charge. This neutrino charge not only plunges through the shield, but it penetrates the mantle and lower levels of the planet. Great chunks of the crust can be vaporized, sometimes sending the surface exploding outward with enough force to shatter the world.
[...]
Alderaan had no shields of any kind, so it was utterly vaporized. A shielded planet that is overcome by a superlaser may "merely" have its entire surface burned off or split into several pieces. Note that planets don't have to be destroyed to be rendered uninhabitable.


As far as the *official* EU canon is concerned, I think this settles the issue: the superlaser was not a pure DET weapon (was exotic) , and Alderaan had no shields (or at least they were inactive) at the time of its destruction. I'm not aware that any other canon quote that contradicts this, feel free to prove me wrong. Tarkin quote about Alderaan "defenses" can be interpreted in various forms, but the DESB statement still prevails.

Now, what the hell is a "coupled neutrino charge"? :)

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: About Alderaan and the DS...

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:22 am

SpanishInquisitor wrote:Hi all!

I'm a long time lurker, and this is my first post here. Sorry in advance for my bad English.

I'm in the camp that all visual evidence cannot be taken literally, and over analyzing frame by frame special effects done in a budget/deadline and made for artistic effect or entertainment value is a mistake. Looking at quotes of SW authors, it seems that most (beginning with Lucas himself) agree to that.

Anyway...reading the infamous Sarli's Jedi Council 94 thread at the wotc site, I found this reference some time ago:

Dark Empire Sourcebook p.125 (about Planetary Shields, bold is mine):
Instead of weakening a shield, the superlaser is able to pierce through it by using a coupled neutrino charge. This neutrino charge not only plunges through the shield, but it penetrates the mantle and lower levels of the planet. Great chunks of the crust can be vaporized, sometimes sending the surface exploding outward with enough force to shatter the world.
[...]
Alderaan had no shields of any kind, so it was utterly vaporized. A shielded planet that is overcome by a superlaser may "merely" have its entire surface burned off or split into several pieces. Note that planets don't have to be destroyed to be rendered uninhabitable.


Hi!

As far as the *official* EU canon is concerned, I think this settles the issue: the superlaser was not a pure DET weapon (was exotic) , and Alderaan had no shields (or at least they were inactive) at the time of its destruction. I'm not aware that any other canon quote that contradicts this, feel free to prove me wrong. Tarkin quote about Alderaan "defenses" can be interpreted in various forms, but the DESB statement still prevails.

Now, what the hell is a "coupled neutrino charge"? :)
Interesting piece of info you got there.

"coupled neutrino charge" looks like it's nothing but babble. I suppose that, somehow, it's used to explain how the energy is roughly spread across the whole planet from the middle, while doing less damage when going through the crust than what a purely DET beam would have.
In a way, it's just as good as the NDF superlaser part I suggested above, and it seems I and the author of that book agreed that energy was largely deposited inside the planet through some irregular method (which "explains" the amount of damage Despayre suffered without hearing anything worth of a notice about a super crater and massive ejecta).

Still, it's interesting to notice that this neutrino based stuff can be intercepted by planetary shields, as long as the EU is concerned.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5836
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:26 am

Interesting also in that the EU in this case agrees with the idea that Alderaan does not have a planetary shield system of any kind.
-Mike

SpanishInquisitor
Candidate
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:54 pm

Re: About Alderaan and the DS...

Post by SpanishInquisitor » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:49 am

Still, it's interesting to notice that this neutrino based stuff can be intercepted by planetary shields, as long as the EU is concerned.
Intercepted yes, but as the quote says, it does not weaken a shield, it pierces through once it can overcome it.

This means a cutting/penetrating effect, just like the composite beam mini-superlaser lookalikes seen in the LAAT gunship in AOTC, and different from the tipical mainly explosive effects of a TL bolt. After that, as the DS novel added, this beam is used as a carrier of hyper-whatever, making ugly things to to a planets core once it gets to it.

DS construction history retcons apart, the official continuity seems coherent between movies-EU about this type of technology.

Kane Starkiller
Jedi Knight
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:15 am

Post by Kane Starkiller » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:03 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Short of physically burying you in college algebra texts - which is more money than I'd care to spend on your education - what do you want?
Evidence that comparing logarithmic values is mathematically unsound?
Jedi Master Spock wrote:log(A)/log(B) does not convert back to a linear quantity. It converts back to a root.
log(10)/log(1000)=1/3
log^-1(1)/log^-1(3)=10/1000
See? Very simple.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:We explicitly have power. Not "logarithmic scale X," power.
Yes whose quantity may have been expressed in a non linear value.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:The difference between a car accident that kills 3 people and a building collapse that kills a thousand. That difference.
You evaded the point: that you can indeed compare logarithmic values.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:All completely whacked out and arbitrary.

And even the first shot is more than 1e13 joules. So.
As opposed to your completely undefined chain reaction theory which are not arbitrary? Mine is at least perfectly mathematically defined.
And the formula example I gave was:
Power_log=log(Power_lin-10^25)
Put 1 for Power_log and you'll see you don't end up with 10^13 joules.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:With 1e13 logarithmic base and simplification disallowed, you're defining "one third" to mean "1e-26 as much."
Again a strawman. I am saying that enumerator and denominator of the fraction are logarithmic values of power as opposed to linear. The definition of a fraction is completely beside the point.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:You have redefined "one third." You have redefined "power." These are simple facts that you have no grounds to dispute.
No I did not. Taking a logarithmic value of power is not "redefining" power nor is assuming that enumerator and denominator are logarithmic values redefining a fraction.
Jedi Master Spock wrote:On the back? Crushing the Death Star like an egg sandwiched between two pistols, in other words?
Unless it's structure can take which it obviously can.
Praeothmin wrote:Interesting how you accept that every “human” in SW speak English, that almost all the races encountered are humanoid, that when they say “injured” they mean the same thing we do.
That notions like “power” and “energy” are used in the same way as we do, even when talking about “strange and exotic” reactions.
How you accept that to them, the attraction planets exert on humans is also called “gravity”, since they use “antigrav” devices to fight it.
Strange how you accept the notion that every single reference to “human” concepts made by SW means exactly the same thing it means to us “earthlings” (even when describing the most exotic effects using decidedly human words), but that the instant you cannot, nay, will not, accept one such aspect, that you try to find a new way for an otherwise very “human” and very scientific concept to be interpreted…
What does this have to do with your insistence that my logarithmic scale must be found in real science books before you accept it and which is false? I don't dispute the usage of various scientific terms however no one in the novel specified they were using linear scale and since the effects don't correspond to 3 times greater power there must be some other explanation. Logarithmic scale explains it.
SailorSaturn13 wrote:It is an INFERIOR ONE. I said that all along. Changing physics is preferable to botching canon. It IS preferable to change physics if it means that canon can be understood in normal, rather than absurd, meaning.
You again presume to have the right to determine what is and is not normal or absurd. You don't.
SailorSaturn13 wrote:For someone to use such a scale the scale must exist very long, not being invented with a weapon.
Why? I just made up one example myself didn't I?
SailorSaturn13 wrote:I did not create that meaning. Likewise I did not define that 2*2=4. I just KNOW it because I've read books on physics. I also know people dealing with decibels. NO ONE OF THEM, IN NO CIRCUMSTANSES understood "One third of power" like you do.
That 2*2=4 is mathematically defined operation. That a fraction must always represent linear values of power is nowhere defined or written.
SailorSaturn13 wrote:Exactly. logarithmic value (if expressed in Watts) is a third. But the quote said "power", not "value" or "scale value". And power, as you concede, isn't.
I don't see how you can possibly fail to understand you can express any value in logarithmic scale. It doesn't matter what the unit is.
Sailor Saturn13 wrote:Prove it isn't. No one said reaction must be proportional to shot power.

I have a better explanation: the full power isn't that big, bacause Alderaan and Despaire are actually very small planets, both 100-120 km in diameter. Then the energy to shatter them is in the same ballpark as to liquify them.
I don't need to prove a negative. Familiarize yourself with burden of proof. Secondly your 100km-120km planetary diameter theory is not only ridiculous but still fails to explain why would 1/3 shot only damage the surface while 3 times stronger shot would destroy it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Actually, it's up to you to prove that this happens.
But my job is rather easy, because while the atmospheric haze obviously lights up and gains several kilometers in thickness, it pretty much stops there. There's no ejecta to be seen on the other side of the planet, nor any matter flying away around that region of the crescent.
Actually no it is your job to prove it since we do know that Alderaan ultimately blows up and your claim is basis for your "exotic" theory. Again the "haze" does not "pretty much" stop anywhere but continues to expand.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Of course, you're not moved by the mere fact that the main fireball at the point of explosion isn't even blue itself, yet somehow there rest of the planet, clearly not under the same level of destruction (a much lower one), would yet be heated up to tens of thousands kelvins (approx)?
So what? The part facing us could've already started expanding well into the vacuum where it cooled down much faster. You need to remember that when such large energies are involved things move faster than even 24fps camera can capture.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Repeating the same point doesn't make it any better. You still make a fallacy by asking me the how it works from a physics pov while it's not required.
Any explanation would involve technobabble about exotic stuff, so there's no point going there.
Again, my claim is about probabilities and expected magnitude of effects, basically, not the peculiar physics behind the beam.

You understand the difference, right?
Oh, no, of course, it's been like six posts I've been talking to a wall.
It's impossible, as simple as that.
Again you concede defeat without even realizing it. You state your claims call them a theory, when challenged to explain that "theory" you fully admit you have absolutely no explanation thus it is not in fact a theory and then wonder why I don't accept it. There is nothing to accept unless you feel I should just take your claims at face value.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Probably for the same reason that it delivers many "details", and that a crater of that size would hardly be a detail.
You seem to be under the same delusion JMS is: namely that your opinions count as evidence. They don't.
Mr. Orgahn wrote:If I had to argue about crust drilling, I'd say NDF may have something to do there.
Which is a Star Trek phenomenon and has nothing to do with superlaser but then again I should not be surprised by your unsupported claims by now.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It is ridiculously complicated for any military personnel in charge of the operation not carrying a Ph.D in superlaser physics.
All they need to know is 1/3-enough for any starship, 2/3 destroying a large asteroid, massive planetary disruption, 3/3-planet scattering.
Never mind that log,+ and = are hardly Ph.D material.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problem with your scale is that anything below 1.5/3 wouldn't be different, you'd still end with more than 10^25 joules, while the effects described above are much lower than that (Tenn's not even sure a low powered shot could vape a small sea).
My scale is an example. I never claimed it was perfect or that it was exactly what they would use. Secondly "above Star Destroyer" is still 10^25J. How big are those cities cited in Tenn's imagination? We know they have planet spanning ones.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oops.
It's from the DS book:
DS book wrote: His nephew, Hora Graneet, had been a navy spacer on the Imperial-class Star Destroyer Mark II class vessel, which had been selected for a shakedown cruise testing one of the improved prototype hypermatter reactors. Tenn didn't know the specifics of what had happened, and didn't have anything close to the math needed to understand it anyway. He knew that hypermatter existed only in hyperspace, that it was composed of tachyonic particles, and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace, produced near-limitless energy.

And the other quote:
DS book wrote: It took no more than an instant. Tenn knew that the beam's total destructive power was much bigger than matter-energy conversion limited to realspace. At full charge, the hyper-matter reactor provided a superluminal "boost" that caused much of the planet's mass to be shifted immediately into hyperspace. As a result, Alderaan exploded into a fiery ball of eye-smiting light almost instantaneously, and a planar ring of energy-reflux - the "shadow" of a hyperspatial ripple - spread rapidly outward.

This settles it rather clearly.
Yes it does settle it in my favor.
Read your own quotes: hypermatter is indeed confined to hyperspace not real space and is composed of tachyonic particles.
Now this quote:
and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace
This makes it prefectly clear: hypermatter reactor constrains tachyonic hypermatter from hyperspace to real space thereby producing vast quantities of energy. Hence energy is not derived from real space matter-antimatter annihilation.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh, and you quantified said superluminal boost?

No you didn't, and no, you won't be able to. So saying that power levels are confirmed because an exotic phenomenon - requiring unknown amounts of power - happens, is perfectly absurd.
I have in fact quantified it using the example of an ISD below. Not to mention that prison planet was blown up without any hyperspace boost and that other sources like Inside the World: trilogy states that DS2's hyperreactor could generate energy equal to hundreds of supergiant stars.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And you know, of course, how matter is accelerated beyond c, and you can calculate the amount of required energy?
Yes see below. Not to mention DS can blow up planets without the boost which is available at full power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:So you have found a quote that states "jump to hyperspace", and not anything that is like "hyperspace jump"?

Could we see that?
What exactly is the difference?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh sure. He's been evading SDs for his lifetime, he's been an imperial guy for some time as well, he's been making several comments about the Empire's abilities even in the films.
So prove that he's not reliable.
I did. Your refusal to accept evidence is your problem.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Bzzt. Wrong answer. It's just that you couldn't see where I was coming from. :)
I'm afraid you lost me.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And as I said, you have surely properly identified the physics of hyperspace and mechanics of anything related to hyperdrives! :P
Consult burden of proof. If you claim you have a theory then you obviously must define your theory. Surely you must realize the comedy of the situation where you state you have a theory but it's so advance you can't actually define it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please read again. I merely noticed another bizarre effect.

And you of course think I'm going to believe that the amount of matter that would be kicked far enough of the planet to cool down would remain dense and packed enough above the point of impact to considerably mask it, nevermind matter expanding and, if again caught by the gravity, hardly going to fall back into place considering the turmoil underneath. But yes, your idea is that the explosion lifts off a sort of super heated plate of matter, and that this plate conveniently remains compressed, while it starts to cool down.
Any matter falling back into the atmosphere would be heated up again. DET stipulates that an energy already superior to the teraton range is deposited at a single spot. This amount of energy will take a hell of a time to cool down.

The only way for such a thing to happen would be to have most of the energy deposited into the core, with a minimal amount of bleedoff through the crust and the atmosphere. That way, the beam would kick a lot of matter up without heating it up too much, while somehow, the atmosphere would feed the expand wall of fire.
Define dense. I never stated it must be as dense as mud or anything. But even diffuse dust stretching over 1000km above the impact site will reduce the amount of light and contrast could make it appear dark. Furthermore why do you insist on continually strawmaning my points? Did I mention a "plate" of matter being lifted? No I simply stated that a portion of the surface would be vaporized and expelled into the orbit and beyond where it would cool off. Then of course there are the usual qualitative assertions: "hell of a time" to cool of. How long exactly is that?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The reaction happens extremely fast, in real time.
I'm not seeing any quantifications of elapsed time there.
SpanishInquisitor wrote:As far as the *official* EU canon is concerned, I think this settles the issue: the superlaser was not a pure DET weapon (was exotic) , and Alderaan had no shields (or at least they were inactive) at the time of its destruction. I'm not aware that any other canon quote that contradicts this, feel free to prove me wrong. Tarkin quote about Alderaan "defenses" can be interpreted in various forms, but the DESB statement still prevails.
How exactly did you come to this conclusion? The quote states superlaser is actually neutrinos which then bypass the shields. But like any other particle neutrino must give it's energy to the target. So what exactly is "exotic" about it? The second part of the quote explicitly states a portion of the surface is vaporized and if heated enough it will expand with enough force to shatter the planet and even vaporize it like it did to Alderaan. This is exactly the "DET" mechanism and no exotic chain reactions in sight.

Roondar
Jedi Knight
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 pm

Post by Roondar » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:52 am

I've asked a mathematician I know (with a bachelors title in math) what he thought about the 1/3 stuff.

His answer: if it is not explicitly specified as being meant differently, 1/3 is not based on logarithms but just 1/3 of the original. It is factually incorrect to say "1/3" and mean something else without clarifying it.

This also goes for figures derived from logarithmic scales such as decibels, if you have a sound at 63 dB, the sound would be 60 dB when played at half strength, not 31,5 dB.

The rule is: if you're not using the standard definition, you specify so.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:49 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:What does this have to do with your insistence that my logarithmic scale must be found in real science books before you accept it and which is false?
I do not insist that we need to find your logarithmic scale anywhere in actual books, I do however insist that you stop redefining the scientific usage of the english language to suit your conclusions.
The book said "1/3 power level", not "1/3 logarithmic values quantifying the power level"...

I don't dispute the usage of various scientific terms however no one in the novel specified they were using linear scale
And no one in the novel specified that they weren't...
and since the effects don't correspond to 3 times greater power there must be some other explanation. Logarithmic scale explains it.
Or the DS could be using that strange, exotic material called
"Hypermatter" to create a no less exotic chain reaction in the planet...

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:39 pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Actually, it's up to you to prove that this happens.
But my job is rather easy, because while the atmospheric haze obviously lights up and gains several kilometers in thickness, it pretty much stops there. There's no ejecta to be seen on the other side of the planet, nor any matter flying away around that region of the crescent.
Actually no it is your job to prove it since we do know that Alderaan ultimately blows up...
In a way that is not fitting with simple DET systems, and incorporates exotic effects which you seem hellbent to ignore...
... and your claim is basis for your "exotic" theory. Again the "haze" does not "pretty much" stop anywhere but continues to expand.
Unless the DVD version has been tweaked on that point - thus far I've heard that only the colours have been slightly altered - you are dead wrong on that.
I invite to watch the video of the SE, for example, or look at these pictures.
You'll notice that while there's definitely stuff thrown into space from the region facing the Death Star, the crescent part remains relatively unharmed in comparison, besides the immediate additional whitish haze.
Until you can show me how the DVD version differs, evidence is on my side.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Of course, you're not moved by the mere fact that the main fireball at the point of explosion isn't even blue itself, yet somehow there rest of the planet, clearly not under the same level of destruction (a much lower one), would yet be heated up to tens of thousands kelvins (approx)?
So what? The part facing us could've already started expanding well into the vacuum where it cooled down much faster.
Which is bull because I very much doubt you can pass from intense white, to blue sort of luminosity, then to darker yellow within one or two frames. There's a lot of energy here you know, and that's going to take a hell of a time to radiate.

Not to say that I'd like you to prove that the planet can be heated up to that level to warrant a blue luminosity, and still retain its shape that much.
It's contradictory.
You need to remember that when such large energies are involved things move faster than even 24fps camera can capture.
Please, we're not speaking about how things move, but how they cool down.

So point me to any region of the expanding fireball that looks whitish blue as the crescent does. Actually, explain why there's no visible white to blue transition on the edges of the fireball, contrary to the implied consequences of your claim.
Our sun, despite being basically yellow instead of blue, has such an intense luminosity that its light is largely white.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Repeating the same point doesn't make it any better. You still make a fallacy by asking me the how it works from a physics pov while it's not required.
Any explanation would involve technobabble about exotic stuff, so there's no point going there.
Again, my claim is about probabilities and expected magnitude of effects, basically, not the peculiar physics behind the beam.

You understand the difference, right?
Oh, no, of course, it's been like six posts I've been talking to a wall.
It's impossible, as simple as that.
Again you concede defeat without even realizing it. You state your claims call them a theory, when challenged to explain that "theory" you fully admit you have absolutely no explanation thus it is not in fact a theory and then wonder why I don't accept it. There is nothing to accept unless you feel I should just take your claims at face value.
Yes, there's something to accept: the fact that you could read my words a thousand times more, and still never understand them. That's unfortunate. I'd have hoped that for now several pages of the same ping-pong meaningless exchange you're responsible of, you'd have finally understood that I never planned to explain the physics beyond the superlaser, that it was never the purpose of it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Probably for the same reason that it delivers many "details", and that a crater of that size would hardly be a detail.
You seem to be under the same delusion JMS is: namely that your opinions count as evidence. They don't.
Oh, with the only difference that this is everything safe an opinion, mister distorsion.
It's a fact. A fact that no mention is made about what would be the most noticeable effect on the surface of the planet. In an ocean of details, all is cited safe what would be the most obvious.
It doesn't require a genius to understand that this is not cited because it was not there.

Remember that we're talking about the first Despayre shots here, not the Alderaanian one that kicks a whole part of the crust into space upon contact.

The descriptions include pretty everything worth of a mention from the moment it reaches a high enough magnitude, but completely misses the mention of the supercrater.

Now, of course, considering the addition made by the other cited EU source, it might actually explain how so much energy is deposited throughout the planet, and not mainly and purely into the crust.
But we can see that if anything, without that refinement from the EU, you'd be left with no good point at all.
Mr. Orgahn wrote:If I had to argue about crust drilling, I'd say NDF may have something to do there.
Which is a Star Trek phenomenon and has nothing to do with superlaser but then again I should not be surprised by your unsupported claims by now.
Do I look like I care if it's a term often applied to Trek? It's an useful one.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It is ridiculously complicated for any military personnel in charge of the operation not carrying a Ph.D in superlaser physics.
All they need to know is 1/3-enough for any starship, 2/3 destroying a large asteroid, massive planetary disruption, 3/3-planet scattering.
Never mind that log,+ and = are hardly Ph.D material.
1/3 on your scale if far more than what's required to get down any starship of that time.
Hell, even with 4%, they completely flash vapourized a 3km long carrier and the 500 fighters, already out of the bays, occupying that region of space.

For the record, when they fired at the rebel carrier, they had the "hypermatter reactor [at] level one twenty-fifth of maximum," and "capacitors, four percent available."

1/25 is nothing more than 0.04, or 4% - but this is not 4% of the capacitors, it's 4% of what the reactor can output, which is very different. Still, running the reactor at that level didn't pump up more energy.
As we know, it takes lots of time to recharge the capacitors, and the destructive power of the superlaser, at that time, was solely attributed to the discharge from the capacitors ("They had vaporized a carrier three kilometers across-with four percent power on the beam. Just like that."), implying that the reactor's output didn't make a difference in regard of what the capacitors had in stock.


Besides, there are percentages. Are you going to attempt shoehorning your nonsensical and overcomplicated log scale into this as well?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problem with your scale is that anything below 1.5/3 wouldn't be different, you'd still end with more than 10^25 joules, while the effects described above are much lower than that (Tenn's not even sure a low powered shot could vape a small sea).
My scale is an example. I never claimed it was perfect or that it was exactly what they would use. Secondly "above Star Destroyer" is still 10^25J. How big are those cities cited in Tenn's imagination? We know they have planet spanning ones.

E25 J? To vapourize a large lake?
Could you please verify this.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oops.
It's from the DS book:
And the other quote:

This settles it rather clearly.
Yes it does settle it in my favor.
Read your own quotes: hypermatter is indeed confined to hyperspace not real space and is composed of tachyonic particles.
Now this quote:
and that charged tachyons, when constrained by the lower dimensions of realspace
This makes it prefectly clear: hypermatter reactor constrains tachyonic hypermatter from hyperspace to real space thereby producing vast quantities of energy. Hence energy is not derived from real space matter-antimatter annihilation.
It settles it in your favour, only if you ignore the fact that reactors don't open windows into hyperspace, that their reactions occur in real space, that hypermatter is stored inside fuel silos as far as you accept the ICS, said silos which themselves exist in real space, and that hyperspace is never mentionnned.
When you look at the size of the whole structure tied to the DS' hypermatter reactor, has it ever occured to you that all this hardware, that literally dwarves the reactor itself, would likely contain the hypermatter the reactor uses?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh, and you quantified said superluminal boost?

No you didn't, and no, you won't be able to. So saying that power levels are confirmed because an exotic phenomenon - requiring unknown amounts of power - happens, is perfectly absurd.
I have in fact quantified it using the example of an ISD below.
Excuse me, but where?
Not to mention that prison planet was blown up without any hyperspace boost...
Hence my claim.
... and that other sources like Inside the World: trilogy states that DS2's hyperreactor could generate energy equal to hundreds of supergiant stars.
I only use anything written or influenced by Saxton to show how such material doesn't fit with the rest of the EU. As far as I'm concerned, I purely ignore whatever he says cause it's bull.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And you know, of course, how matter is accelerated beyond c, and you can calculate the amount of required energy?
Yes see below. Not to mention DS can blow up planets without the boost which is available at full power.
I'm looking "below" and there's nothing. So provide your evidence or concede.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:So you have found a quote that states "jump to hyperspace", and not anything that is like "hyperspace jump"?

Could we see that?
What exactly is the difference?
Give me the quote. You claimed it exist, so give it.
I'll tell you the difference once I see that genuine quote you referenced. Until then, your interpretation remains most humourous, but above all particularily wrong.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh sure. He's been evading SDs for his lifetime, he's been an imperial guy for some time as well, he's been making several comments about the Empire's abilities even in the films.
So prove that he's not reliable.
I did. Your refusal to accept evidence is your problem.
What evidence? You're just saying that Han is full of it when he makes claims about anything related to the size of Empire's dick (read: firepower, fleet and ship size/importance).
Thus far, it's simply and purely unsubstanciated.
So again, provide proof he lies or is wrong, notably on Star Destroyers abilities.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Bzzt. Wrong answer. It's just that you couldn't see where I was coming from. :)
I'm afraid you lost me.
Could that be the first step to enlightment?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And as I said, you have surely properly identified the physics of hyperspace and mechanics of anything related to hyperdrives! :P
Consult burden of proof. If you claim you have a theory then you obviously must define your theory. Surely you must realize the comedy of the situation where you state you have a theory but it's so advance you can't actually define it.
Exotic big badaboom. Haha, really, that's pretty much all you're going to get.

You're simply ignoring the mere fact that the third shot had almost the exact same recharge time than the second shot, plus a difference of 4 to 6 minutes, and that at this time, the weapon system was NOT fully functional.

Yet it doesn't prevent you from claiming that the energy levels jump from crust cracking to violent planetary mass scattering (e33 J at least).
If the capacitors can be charged with so much energy, why wasn't the second shot as powerful as the third?

They could only get 1/3 shots ("Engineering hasn't goten itself together, from what they tell me. They say thirty-three percent power is all they can currently store in the capacitors for discharge."), and the first one would be ready for a fire test within two hours.
Even during the conference room talk, the battle station was again identified as not fully operational.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please read again. I merely noticed another bizarre effect.

And you of course think I'm going to believe that the amount of matter that would be kicked far enough of the planet to cool down would remain dense and packed enough above the point of impact to considerably mask it, nevermind matter expanding and, if again caught by the gravity, hardly going to fall back into place considering the turmoil underneath. But yes, your idea is that the explosion lifts off a sort of super heated plate of matter, and that this plate conveniently remains compressed, while it starts to cool down.
Any matter falling back into the atmosphere would be heated up again. DET stipulates that an energy already superior to the teraton range is deposited at a single spot. This amount of energy will take a hell of a time to cool down.

The only way for such a thing to happen would be to have most of the energy deposited into the core, with a minimal amount of bleedoff through the crust and the atmosphere. That way, the beam would kick a lot of matter up without heating it up too much, while somehow, the atmosphere would feed the expand wall of fire.
Define dense. I never stated it must be as dense as mud or anything. But even diffuse dust stretching over 1000km above the impact site will reduce the amount of light and contrast could make it appear dark. Furthermore why do you insist on continually strawmaning my points? Did I mention a "plate" of matter being lifted? No I simply stated that a portion of the surface would be vaporized and expelled into the orbit and beyond where it would cool off. Then of course there are the usual qualitative assertions: "hell of a time" to cool of. How long exactly is that?
This is no strawman. The plate is an analogy for the claim of dense layer of cooler matter lifted up above the fireball. It's most impressive that while anyone would have a basic clue about the effect and development of fireballs within an atmosphere and at the surface of a world, and know that all you'd see is a huge fireball, you come here and claim that this is not going to be the case, just... because.
And you're the one insisting on realistic physics?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The reaction happens extremely fast, in real time.
I'm not seeing any quantifications of elapsed time there.
The reactions of the characters and how the whole scene, from their perspective, occurs within a short timeframe. Unless you believe one of the two persons replied to the comment made by the first more than an hour later? (time before the second shot, which happens after that chapter)
The chapter leaves no doubt that it happened within small minutes.
"They-they're firing at the planet. With the superlaser" came after the book described what happened on the surface.

Not only the energy at that time didn't remove the atmosphere, but the black spot came in so fast, replacing the orange spot on the holo, that they spoke at the present tense.
Then they kept looking at the holo, with orange and black waves expanding irregularily.
They both watched disbelievingly as an orange spot blossomed on the image of the planet. It seemed no bigger than Memah's thumbnail at first, but it grew rapidly, spreading in an expanding circle. The center of the orange turned black.

...

The orange and black spread in irregular waves now, continuing outward from the center. The blue of the ocean didn't even slow it down.
I'd particularily like to know how a ring of fire can expand while anywhere where that ring of fire passed is now identified as black by the holo.
This loks much more like ID4 effect than the expansion of a fireball.
Or like what happens at 5:42 here.


And excuse me, but it's not a mere dark spot, like in "a darker hue". It's a black spot, which is enough to dispute the idea that some dust in higher orbit would conveniently mask the fireball with intermediate opacity.
The holo, for the record, was capable of displaying green and blue as well, which was how Despayre looked like from away.
Not that it matters much, since the holo shows the black stuff expanding as much as the orange one, even beyond the point of impact, and that extremely fast, which simply throws out the fancyful idea of cooler matter kicked above fireballs.

Post Reply