BSG Epic Montage

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BSG Epic Montage

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:36 pm


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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Lucky » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:47 am

Shame the only thing good about the show was the VFX.

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:44 pm

What's didn't you do not disliked? :D

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Lucky » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:15 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: What's didn't you do not disliked? :D
1) The basic idea is bad from the get go. "Let's take a light hearted goofy fun show, and remake it to be as grim, dark, and stupid(in a bad way) as possible." NUBSG was BSG in name only really.

I want my Sci-Fi to be fun.

2) You ended up hope everyone would just get killed off.

3) Nothing the Cylons do, makes sense. Why bother with the convoluted backdoor program when you can basically use your FTl drive to appear in the center of the target? Why would they think the humans would just forgive and forget after you spend years trying to commit genocide?

It's everything you complain about when it comes to the new Star Trek movies only worse.

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:54 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: What's didn't you do not disliked? :D
1) The basic idea is bad from the get go. "Let's take a light hearted goofy fun show, and remake it to be as grim, dark, and stupid(in a bad way) as possible." NUBSG was BSG in name only really.

I want my Sci-Fi to be fun.

2) You ended up hope everyone would just get killed off.
I see. Nothing that can be done there.
3) Nothing the Cylons do, makes sense. Why bother with the convoluted backdoor program when you can basically use your FTl drive to appear in the center of the target?
Cylons had a somewhat inferior military tech, and their ships were considerably weaker.
They were better tailored for a quick strike. But their plan also meant that they'd reveal their larger existence and true intents to humans, and if they were to fail to destroy them, they'd only make things worse. This time, the humans would use all resources at their disposal to track the Cylons everywhere possible, no matter how long it would take.
The Cylons might jump close to their target, but they'd be incapable to pin them all down.
The Colonial fleet was constantly active, proof of the number of ships available and already scrambled, and the fact that when Basestars jumped close to planets, they were already flying amidst Battlestars.

Add to that the impressive overall update and the constant maintainance on major battlecarriers to have them operate under the best parameters possible. Not to count the recent construction of superior ships like Pegasus, with better computer systems allowing for much longer FTL jumps, clearly proving that the humans still were on their guards and wanted to have the best tools to strike back at any time. Plus the patrolling of the red line.

If any Cylon would be captured, there would be a risk of having them, no matter how, provide a snippet of information on the Cylon Colony.
A survival of the army and an incapacity of the Cylons to properly complete the bombardment of the colonial installations would leave way too many survivors having access to assets that would allow them to retaliate.
It's even worse because you wouldn't fool them twice and that time they'd probably make sure to take into account the superior FTL drives the Cylons and hide and make mobile their bases and colonial outposts.

In other words, without the CPL, the Cylons wouldn't properly complete their mission, lose way too many ships and actually end having robots be captured.
Considering what we've seen in Caprica and Blood & Chrome, it's quite clear that the Colonials had enough tech to extract precious information from any Cylon they could capture.
Why would they think the humans would just forgive and forget after you spend years trying to commit genocide?
They went through a lot of events which put both sides in positions wherein they had to reconsider a great many things. Not to say that, anyway, most humans didn't show any will to forgive, but it's not like there was much they could do.
They barely had the means of survival, they couldn't exactly engage a vengeful military campaign.

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:06 pm

I liked nBSG a lot...
I want my Sci-Fi to be interesting and attack things from new perspective...

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Lucky » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:30 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: I see. Nothing that can be done there.
If you toss out everything that made BSG fun and unique, why use the name?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Cylons had a somewhat inferior military tech, and their ships were considerably weaker.
They were better tailored for a quick strike. But their plan also meant that they'd reveal their larger existence and true intents to humans, and if they were to fail to destroy them, they'd only make things worse. This time, the humans would use all resources at their disposal to track the Cylons everywhere possible, no matter how long it would take.
The Cylons might jump close to their target, but they'd be incapable to pin them all down.
The Colonial fleet was constantly active, proof of the number of ships available and already scrambled, and the fact that when Basestars jumped close to planets, they were already flying amidst Battlestars.

Add to that the impressive overall update and the constant maintainance on major battlecarriers to have them operate under the best parameters possible. Not to count the recent construction of superior ships like Pegasus, with better computer systems allowing for much longer FTL jumps, clearly proving that the humans still were on their guards and wanted to have the best tools to strike back at any time. Plus the patrolling of the red line.

If any Cylon would be captured, there would be a risk of having them, no matter how, provide a snippet of information on the Cylon Colony.
A survival of the army and an incapacity of the Cylons to properly complete the bombardment of the colonial installations would leave way too many survivors having access to assets that would allow them to retaliate.
It's even worse because you wouldn't fool them twice and that time they'd probably make sure to take into account the superior FTL drives the Cylons and hide and make mobile their bases and colonial outposts.

In other words, without the CPL, the Cylons wouldn't properly complete their mission, lose way too many ships and actually end having robots be captured.
Considering what we've seen in Caprica and Blood & Chrome, it's quite clear that the Colonials had enough tech to extract precious information from any Cylon they could capture.
I'm calling shenanigans. You are creating a false dilemma.

Raiders just jump in, and blow themselves up. The Colonies now have no planets, Space stations, and have lost a large number of spaceships with no idea what happened, or where the enemy is.

(CENSOR), raiders could even jump inside of battlestars.

If you lack the resources to win, which the cylons should not have lacked, you stay hidden if you are scared.

+++++

(CENSOR),The Cylons decided to kill all humans do to the humans wanting to find out what the Cylons were up to because the Cylons ignored decades of peace overtures.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They went through a lot of events which put both sides in positions wherein they had to reconsider a great many things. Not to say that, anyway, most humans didn't show any will to forgive, but it's not like there was much they could do.
They barely had the means of survival, they couldn't exactly engage a vengeful military campaign.
And trying to force the humans to live side by side with them was stupid.

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:16 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I see. Nothing that can be done there.
If you toss out everything that made BSG fun and unique, why use the name?
Because the premise is strictly the same but the style is different. It's a remake, a new take on an old story, and it's done a lot today, just like every illustrator will give you a different painting of the exact same location or scene.
Still Lord of the Rings, Superman, etc.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Cylons had a somewhat inferior military tech, and their ships were considerably weaker.
They were better tailored for a quick strike. But their plan also meant that they'd reveal their larger existence and true intents to humans, and if they were to fail to destroy them, they'd only make things worse. This time, the humans would use all resources at their disposal to track the Cylons everywhere possible, no matter how long it would take.
The Cylons might jump close to their target, but they'd be incapable to pin them all down.
The Colonial fleet was constantly active, proof of the number of ships available and already scrambled, and the fact that when Basestars jumped close to planets, they were already flying amidst Battlestars.

Add to that the impressive overall update and the constant maintainance on major battlecarriers to have them operate under the best parameters possible. Not to count the recent construction of superior ships like Pegasus, with better computer systems allowing for much longer FTL jumps, clearly proving that the humans still were on their guards and wanted to have the best tools to strike back at any time. Plus the patrolling of the red line.

If any Cylon would be captured, there would be a risk of having them, no matter how, provide a snippet of information on the Cylon Colony.
A survival of the army and an incapacity of the Cylons to properly complete the bombardment of the colonial installations would leave way too many survivors having access to assets that would allow them to retaliate.
It's even worse because you wouldn't fool them twice and that time they'd probably make sure to take into account the superior FTL drives the Cylons and hide and make mobile their bases and colonial outposts.

In other words, without the CPL, the Cylons wouldn't properly complete their mission, lose way too many ships and actually end having robots be captured.
Considering what we've seen in Caprica and Blood & Chrome, it's quite clear that the Colonials had enough tech to extract precious information from any Cylon they could capture.
I'm calling shenanigans. You are creating a false dilemma.

Raiders just jump in, and blow themselves up. The Colonies now have no planets, Space stations, and have lost a large number of spaceships with no idea what happened, or where the enemy is.[/quote]

They did jump in system, close to ships and stations. Watch Razor.
Obviously it wasn't enough.
The other problem being that space is vast and you cannot track every single ship.
Cavil also said that at first they were having fun stalking the Colonials as they could have ended that quicker.
Especially with the probe inside the ship.
Still, FTL being limited by STL sensors means long range tactical jumps are ought to be heavily limited.
Planets can be hit but they're also very big targets, with military bases underground as well.
However, ships aren't trackable.
(CENSOR), raiders could even jump inside of battlestars.
Once on site. However, the precision of the jump isn't certain and the behaviour of such jumps inside a structure, risking to reintegrate space where there's already plenty of matter (and Battlestars are cramped) has never been established as being risk-free or even doable.
Not to say that you take the risk of having Raiders damaged and captured.
Basically, again, the CPL was most necessary for an unilateral strike in space and against ground targets, with the full range of abilities allowed by mixed use of Raiders, Heavy Raiders and Basestars.
Plus a Basestar carries something like 250 Raiders I think, give or take. Even if each Raider had like four 50~500 KT nuke, you only get 50~500 MT to spread on an entire planet.
Which is to say, not enough to guarantee eradication without the chance of military retaliation.
Multiply by perhaps a hundred Basestars, more or less.
Woopteedoo, 50 GT for all the colonies, bases, outposts, and we haven't even begun trying to blast those damned Battlestars and their support fleets out of the sky.
Ships which have been known to handle nukes a bit better than cities.
And we don't even brush the surface of the nuke count problem. That is, the fact that not all ships had a vast stock of nukes. The fact that the nuking of Caprica itself didn't torch the planet.
If you lack the resources to win, which the cylons should not have lacked, you stay hidden if you are scared.
What makes you think they shouldn't have lacked anything?
You cannot arbitrarily increase the number of assets just like that, and as they were limited, it would have been with limited ressources that the Cylons would have had to deal with retaliation from Colonies which never forgot about the enemy and were constantly upgrading their military assets.

(CENSOR),The Cylons decided to kill all humans do to the humans wanting to find out what the Cylons were up to because the Cylons ignored decades of peace overtures.
If anything, it seems the plan had more to do with bringing back the Five Ones to complete the program for complete resurrection.
And to do that, all humans had to be destroyed so eventually those fathers and mothers of the clone models would be brought back to life within the Cylon ranks.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They went through a lot of events which put both sides in positions wherein they had to reconsider a great many things. Not to say that, anyway, most humans didn't show any will to forgive, but it's not like there was much they could do.
They barely had the means of survival, they couldn't exactly engage a vengeful military campaign.
And trying to force the humans to live side by side with them was stupid.
Did you watch the show or something? Because that's quite easily covered in it, but not at the beginning. Since you really hate it, I doubt you've watched anything.
So I equally doubt you could make any properly informed commentary on material you know little about.
Or you've watched four seasons of a show you vomit.
Which is rather... worrying.

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Lucky » Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:06 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Because the premise is strictly the same but the style is different. It's a remake, a new take on an old story, and it's done a lot today, just like every illustrator will give you a different painting of the exact same location or scene.
Still Lord of the Rings, Superman, etc.
But there was nothing new about NBSG's style as the story had already been told that way under different names for thousands of years. The story has repeatedly happened in real life.

A remake really should not be in name only.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Once on site. However, the precision of the jump isn't certain and the behaviour of such jumps inside a structure, risking to reintegrate space where there's already plenty of matter (and Battlestars are cramped) has never been established as being risk-free or even doable.
Not to say that you take the risk of having Raiders damaged and captured.
Basically, again, the CPL was most necessary for an unilateral strike in space and against ground targets, with the full range of abilities allowed by mixed use of Raiders, Heavy Raiders and Basestars.
Plus a Basestar carries something like 250 Raiders I think, give or take. Even if each Raider had like four 50~500 KT nuke, you only get 50~500 MT to spread on an entire planet.
Which is to say, not enough to guarantee eradication without the chance of military retaliation.
Multiply by perhaps a hundred Basestars, more or less.
Woopteedoo, 50 GT for all the colonies, bases, outposts, and we haven't even begun trying to blast those damned Battlestars and their support fleets out of the sky.
Ships which have been known to handle nukes a bit better than cities.
And we don't even brush the surface of the nuke count problem. That is, the fact that not all ships had a vast stock of nukes. The fact that the nuking of Caprica itself didn't torch the planet.
You're missing the point.

There was no reason for the Cylons to not have the numbers needed to wipe the 12 Colonies out. There is something wrong if you plan a war, but do not stockpile the supplies you need. The Cylons had all the time and resources they needed to win without the back door, but failed to make use of them.

There isn't a reason the "Rag Tag Fleet" should not have been killed by huge numbers of Cylons.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: What makes you think they shouldn't have lacked anything?
You cannot arbitrarily increase the number of assets just like that, and as they were limited, it would have been with limited ressources that the Cylons would have had to deal with retaliation from Colonies which never forgot about the enemy and were constantly upgrading their military assets.
1) Space is big, and there is lots of useful stuff floating around in it.

2) The cylons had at least one Earth like planet. That is a lot of resources for a space based race.

3) The cylons are a machine race., and have all the advantages of being machines

4) The cylons were the ones making the time table.

If the cylons attacked before they were ready then there is something very wrong with them because they had time, numbers, and resources to work with. The cylons had more then enough resources, numbers, supplies, and time to take down the twelve colonies without the back door
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If anything, it seems the plan had more to do with bringing back the Five Ones to complete the program for complete resurrection.
And to do that, all humans had to be destroyed so eventually those fathers and mothers of the clone models would be brought back to life within the Cylon ranks.
Not seeing it from what I saw the Cylons do in the show. The show wouldn't have lasted a bleeping season had the cylons wanted that.

The Rag Tag Fleet survived because of authorial fiat, A.K.A. bad writing. It really seems like the writers had little idea as to what they wanted to do, and made stuff up as they went.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Did you watch the show or something? Because that's quite easily covered in it, but not at the beginning. Since you really hate it, I doubt you've watched anything.
So I equally doubt you could make any properly informed commentary on material you know little about.
Or you've watched four seasons of a show you vomit.
Which is rather... worrying.
I must have only caught the bad episodes then, and then gave up on the show. The wiki having just checked seems to support my view of the cylons for some reason.

03-13-14
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_Psychology

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Re: BSG Epic Montage

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:00 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Because the premise is strictly the same but the style is different. It's a remake, a new take on an old story, and it's done a lot today, just like every illustrator will give you a different painting of the exact same location or scene.
Still Lord of the Rings, Superman, etc.
But there was nothing new about NBSG's style as the story had already been told that way under different names for thousands of years. The story has repeatedly happened in real life.

A remake really should not be in name only.
Have you paid attention to the number of variants we had for, say, Battleship Yamato by now?
I think you really miss the point. The writers liked many ideas of the original show but wanted to have a very different spin on it.
The remake kept a many great elements of the original show.
All the ships, most of the names, the planets, the mysterious background, the survivors and the ragtag fleet protected by one single mighty warship.
Frankly, if they had kept all those ideas but not named the show Battlestar Galactica, it would have been criticized for being a thinly veiled total rip off and probably even had to deal with legal issues.
So just get over it.
Tomorrow they could make a cartoonish gayish Battlestar Galactica with rainbow guns and whatever, and still keep the overall idea intact.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Once on site. However, the precision of the jump isn't certain and the behaviour of such jumps inside a structure, risking to reintegrate space where there's already plenty of matter (and Battlestars are cramped) has never been established as being risk-free or even doable.
Not to say that you take the risk of having Raiders damaged and captured.
Basically, again, the CPL was most necessary for an unilateral strike in space and against ground targets, with the full range of abilities allowed by mixed use of Raiders, Heavy Raiders and Basestars.
Plus a Basestar carries something like 250 Raiders I think, give or take. Even if each Raider had like four 50~500 KT nuke, you only get 50~500 MT to spread on an entire planet.
Which is to say, not enough to guarantee eradication without the chance of military retaliation.
Multiply by perhaps a hundred Basestars, more or less.
Woopteedoo, 50 GT for all the colonies, bases, outposts, and we haven't even begun trying to blast those damned Battlestars and their support fleets out of the sky.
Ships which have been known to handle nukes a bit better than cities.
And we don't even brush the surface of the nuke count problem. That is, the fact that not all ships had a vast stock of nukes. The fact that the nuking of Caprica itself didn't torch the planet.
You're missing the point.

There was no reason for the Cylons to not have the numbers needed to wipe the 12 Colonies out.
That's as faulty as it can get. You assume they can arbitrarily augment numbers, just like that.
It's even worse because as it happens for any security system, sooner or later, the backdoor would have been found --- did you notice how long it takes for holes to be found in the security of popular OSes by people working from home computers only? Not long.
The introduction of the CPL and its push on a large scale to the entire Colonial military assets was the pivotal moment the Cylons could not miss.
Beyond that, they would have risked losing the only advantage they'd have over the Colonials. Beyond that, the Colonials would have started to iterate on the CPL, solve some problems and have holes patched, and soon enough, even the hacking protocol would have turned out to be partially ineffective.
There is something wrong if you plan a war, but do not stockpile the supplies you need.
What makes you think they were not stockpiled? And, clearly, you have it wrong. They didn't plan any war in the slightest way. They planned an alpha strike to achieve an unilateral flash homicide over all Colonies.
The Cylons had all the time and resources they needed to win without the back door, but failed to make use of them.
Where is the slightest evidence that they had all time and resources on their hands praytell?
And what about the Colonials. I've already told you that the Colonials were not inert, but were updating and building new ships as well as actively patrolling the red line and even pushed their luck (as seen with the Valkyrie incident).
At the end of the former war the Cylons had been sent reeling over, they backed off. They were hunted and chased on some distant worlds, including the ice planet where they were running last chance experiments on cyborgs.
We don't even know where they'd have been without the extra help from the Cylon Colony, which in fact doesn't provide much information about how really helpful it was aside from being crazy big (and it was considerably bigger in the shopw's finale than in the movie The Plan, which featured a CGI model based on a fan made wrong scaling).

At best from The Plan we might infer the existence of a hundred modern Basestars, which on their own are inferior to Battlestars one on one, even old ones.
30 Battlestars had been destroyed during the Mini-series and that only represented a quarter of the fleet.
Galactica was leading the Battlestar Group 75.

Battlestar groups are modeled on modern-day aircraft carrier battle groups, according to RDM.
Back in the first war, an entire Battlestar Group "Ghost Fleet" comprised that many ships:
http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/5/55/Wedge_2.png

And we can see, good old Galactica in her prime, was not only much more armoured and armed, but escored by a large variety of ships:
http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/ ... arence.png

In other words, there's not a shred of evidence the Cylons had any way to gain the upper hand in assets since the end of the war.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: What makes you think they shouldn't have lacked anything?
You cannot arbitrarily increase the number of assets just like that, and as they were limited, it would have been with limited ressources that the Cylons would have had to deal with retaliation from Colonies which never forgot about the enemy and were constantly upgrading their military assets.
1) Space is big, and there is lots of useful stuff floating around in it.

2) The cylons had at least one Earth like planet. That is a lot of resources for a space based race.

3) The cylons are a machine race., and have all the advantages of being machines

4) The cylons were the ones making the time table.

If the cylons attacked before they were ready then there is something very wrong with them because they had time, numbers, and resources to work with. The cylons had more then enough resources, numbers, supplies, and time to take down the twelve colonies without the back door
1. Which applies to Colonials.

2. Which one? The frozen ice hole? :) Besides, the Colonials had several of real planets, plus outposts and Ragnar Anchorage: http://battlestarorion.wdfiles.com/loca ... nusMap.jpg

3. They emulated mankind. They almost reverently followed a base model which barely evolved since the U-87 model seen in Caprica. They wanted to have other bodies, more organic, and part of the deal that led to the end of the war was the Final Five allowing the Cylons to evolve. The Final Five were some sort of better humans, stronger, with an inate ability to interface with technology, without the help of nanomachines.
So instead of turning Borgish or Replicator, the Cylons moved to some kind of transhumanist state, while keeping some updated Centuions along them, but with processing regulators.
Still, many of their systems featured automated mechanisms, but the Colonials hardly were primitives in comparison. They already had heavily automatized industries. The push for more capable robots was to achieve some kind of hedonistic society, and that wasn't craved solely on a virtuous ideological basis, but also on a gritty material plan as Greystone wanted to make big money out of those machines.

4. Not at all.

5. Absolutely not. Hello? Their strike didn't even hit more than a quarter of the fleet and planets were obviously far from torched. Many civilian ships survived, including those cannibalized by Pegasus' Admiral Cain.
The CPL was a window of oportunity to hit the Colonials hard. They focused their firepower on the most important targets and then ran mop up operations the rest of the time.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If anything, it seems the plan had more to do with bringing back the Five Ones to complete the program for complete resurrection.
And to do that, all humans had to be destroyed so eventually those fathers and mothers of the clone models would be brought back to life within the Cylon ranks.
Not seeing it from what I saw the Cylons do in the show. The show wouldn't have lasted a bleeping season had the cylons wanted that.

The Rag Tag Fleet survived because of authorial fiat, A.K.A. bad writing. It really seems like the writers had little idea as to what they wanted to do, and made stuff up as they went.
Not knowing how a show will end isn't a problem. Very few shows are created with all things planned from the beginning. So that's silly criticism.
Besides, this is hardly a problem when it's done well.
As for the survival, however, you have not proved once why it made no sense, aside from you hammering the idea that the Cylons should have had ships'n'nukes^99999.
Which I properly debunked, I believe.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Did you watch the show or something? Because that's quite easily covered in it, but not at the beginning. Since you really hate it, I doubt you've watched anything.
So I equally doubt you could make any properly informed commentary on material you know little about.
Or you've watched four seasons of a show you vomit.
Which is rather... worrying.
I must have only caught the bad episodes then, and then gave up on the show. The wiki having just checked seems to support my view of the cylons for some reason.

03-13-14
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Cylon_Psychology
Your view?

"And trying to force the humans to live side by side with them was stupid."

That is what you typed.
The link supports nothing of that. And yes, you did miss a great lot.

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