Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:16 pm

http://youtu.be/90TafwkW58w

We can scale off Scotty later . . . heck of a hole.

Edit: And incidentally, this could be the GalaxyClassStarship.Net retort to the Holy Grate of Inflationism inasmuch as being a very similar scene
Last edited by 2046 on Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:37 pm

Darth Spock wrote:A Klingon vaporized with his Bat'leth would be good, to see if it goes up, or if the "vaporization" effect fizzles out and it drops to the ground.
Closest I have is a Capellan sword, as well as their kligat thingies that can cut through small trees. The exact composition of any of these is unknown, but presumably comparable to steel and normal wood, respectively.

The sword-carrying Capellan is hit center-of-mass or so and the sword, carried high and away from the body, goes with him.

Video: https://youtu.be/8VsRvLpQpFc

Which reminds me, Klingons have been vaped in full regalia, so perhaps their knives count? There's no direct evidence they're made of baakonite like bat'leths (and thus presumably as dense as the aforementioned 5.3 kilograms for a bat'leth would suggest), but there's no reason to assume they'd make their knife out of something significantly different than their sword.

Star Trek III: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ULz7ukMb7s

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:28 am

2046 wrote:http://youtu.be/90TafwkW58w

We can scale off Scotty later . . . heck of a hole.

Edit: And incidentally, this could be the GalaxyClassStarship.Net retort to the Holy Grate of Inflationism inasmuch as being a very similar scene
Nice video capture. Scotty is kneeling about half a meter from the hole, which would make any scaling a just a bit on the conservative side of things. Also you can really see the phaser strike blast dynamics where the flash and smoke clearly rise up from where the beam hit with no secondary explosion from the area of the one ruptured cable.

As for scaling the hole:

Image

The hole in the image measures 3.25" vertically at it's highest point, and 2.03" at it's widest. Scotty's head measure from chin to top is 1.83". That would make the hole about 1.77 times taller than Scotty's head and 1.109 times wider than his head is tall.

The average human male head height seems to be around 23.9 cm so that makes the hole 42.3 x 26.5 cm, or .42. x .26 meter.

Of course we have no idea what setting Evil Kirk had the phaser on, so we have no idea if this is a full power shot or not.
-Mike

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:08 am

Oh, one more thing. How thick is the casing (excluding the stanchions or tube-like greeblings):

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x05h ... nhd561.jpg

The HD image when expanded to full size would have Scotty's head height in the image at 4.04" while the left-side of the hole casing thickness seems to be .35". Plugging in the numbers gives us a ratio of 11.54 to 1. Dividing 23.9 cm by 11.54 then gives us 2.07 cm.

Pretty good for the phaser as the energies were spread out and upwards from the beam impact point at the top of the center stanchion, which it looks like the phaser drilled part of the way or all of the way through. Given in the video you provided that the beam lasts just less than a second, I can get a pretty good idea of what it would have done if that phaser had been allowed to dwell on the casing for a few more seconds. In fact, checking my DVD copy of the episode, I count 11 frames from the time of the phaser sound as Evil Kirk reacts to Spock's neck pinch to the end of the bright flash. Assuming 24 frames per second that's just less than half a second!

To get back to the Sherman tank scenario, at whatever setting Evil Kirk had his phaser on, at that power it would blast a hole big enough for a grown man to stick his head through the M4's thickest 3" (7.62 cm) armor in 1.5 seconds!
-Mike

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:52 pm

I was ballparking based on his thumb rather than his head. I imagine the communicator would be a better reference than either of those, being an object of certain size. The additional distance must also be considered, as you noted.

The vidcaps are from the DVD version, so the Blu-ray caps from Trekcore are definitely superior for this purpose. I didn't frame-count the shot yet but agree it should be perhaps half a second… possibly less if it is 11 frames and 30 fps on your device.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:32 pm

Oh I am aware that my DVD player is mostly likely running it at 30fps, but I am trying to be conservative here. :-D

But it is interesting that people are trying to make it look like phasers on maximum or high settings can only cut through metals rather than cause indiscriminate blast damage as the phaser does here.

In fact, Jameson in "Too Short a Season" does specifically order Tasha and Worf to "Set phasers to cut through it.". Scotty also does a cutting mode on his phaser to carefully cut out a wall panel to get at the door circuitry in "The Naked Time".

So there is a particular cutting setting on the phasers, just like in "The Arsenal of Freedom" there are ways of setting frequency, and we see in "Legacy" and "Inheritance" where the ship-mounted phasers can be set to a drilling mode.

So phasers really are the Swiss Army knife of sci-fi weapons!
-Mike

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:44 pm

http://weblog.st-v-sw.net/2015/04/baako ... leths.html

Okay, so baakonite wasn't quite as badass as I was thinking. Still, a 9,250 kg/m^3 knife being vaped along with the Klingon is interesting. How'd the mashed potatoes survive, again?

Swiss Army Knife, indeed.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:02 am

1. Part 1 of my retort: http://weblog.st-v-sw.net/2015/04/phase ... -pt-i.html

2. And it looks like Darth Spock has stolen my thunder on Part II, anticipating some of my thunder, e.g. short-range anti-tank weapons.

However, there is still, I think, a good bit more to do, and having done most of the research I need only do the narrative.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Darth Spock » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:41 am

2046 wrote:After posting the above, I realized I had no context for the overlay. So I pull that up on Netflix and man, there's all kinds of stuff going on there. Data's punching buttons later just as he starts working to free Riker and there's stuff sliding across and the whole row blinks and so on. The UI is a lot more complex than generally assumed.
Mike DiCenso wrote: In the "Arsenal of Freedom" example, Data was attempting to remove the stasis forcefield by finding its frequency:
-Mike
Ugh, in the past, I generally liked to assume that more complicated phaser adjustments were made inside a flip up section or something. That almost makes it look like one of those annoying clocks where you have to hold one button down, tap the other, then press repeatedly to scroll through options, then go back to the other button---GAH! I hate those things!
But, as the main adjustments seem to be intended to 1) adjust power, and 2) adjust beam width, and then considering the above example of Data looking for the right frequency, while the beam itself appears to be at different widths during Data's various attempts, I got to wondering. The nature of waves is not a strong point under my current knowledge base, but, as I understand it, the overall power, wavelength/frequency, and amplitude are all interconnected. Is it a possibility that wider beam settings include higher amplitude, in turn affecting frequency at a given power level? Just a quick thought.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Darth Spock » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:45 am

2046 wrote: Closest I have is a Capellan sword, as well as their kligat thingies that can cut through small trees. The exact composition of any of these is unknown, but presumably comparable to steel and normal wood, respectively.

The sword-carrying Capellan is hit center-of-mass or so and the sword, carried high and away from the body, goes with him.

Video: https://youtu.be/8VsRvLpQpFc

Which reminds me, Klingons have been vaped in full regalia, so perhaps their knives count? There's no direct evidence they're made of baakonite like bat'leths (and thus presumably as dense as the aforementioned 5.3 kilograms for a bat'leth would suggest), but there's no reason to assume they'd make their knife out of something significantly different than their sword.

Star Trek III: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ULz7ukMb7s
2046 wrote:http://weblog.st-v-sw.net/2015/04/baako ... leths.html

Okay, so baakonite wasn't quite as badass as I was thinking. Still, a 9,250 kg/m^3 knife being vaped along with the Klingon is interesting.
Still mighty impressive. I'd guess the knives to be similar to the swords, and that's at least as good as steel, if not still better. The Capellan's another good example. If not iron in name, certainly something that compares or even exceeds it, density wise.

Another nice example there with the transporter conduit.
2046 wrote:1. Part 1 of my retort: http://weblog.st-v-sw.net/2015/04/phase ... -pt-i.html

2. And it looks like Darth Spock has stolen my thunder on Part II, anticipating some of my thunder, e.g. short-range anti-tank weapons.

However, there is still, I think, a good bit more to do, and having done most of the research I need only do the narrative.
Sorry, a phaser beating on a tank was just too fun a concept! Hey, I wasn't aware you had a youtube channel too, 2046. Although, on that note, I'll never be able to fully enjoy that tank melting scene again, realizing the ammo didn't cook off realistically there. :(

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:35 pm

Darth Spock wrote:
2046 wrote:After posting the above, I realized I had no context for the overlay. So I pull that up on Netflix and man, there's all kinds of stuff going on there. Data's punching buttons later just as he starts working to free Riker and there's stuff sliding across and the whole row blinks and so on. The UI is a lot more complex than generally assumed.
Mike DiCenso wrote: In the "Arsenal of Freedom" example, Data was attempting to remove the stasis forcefield by finding its frequency:
-Mike
Ugh, in the past, I generally liked to assume that more complicated phaser adjustments were made inside a flip up section or something. That almost makes it look like one of those annoying clocks where you have to hold one button down, tap the other, then press repeatedly to scroll through options, then go back to the other button---GAH! I hate those things!
But, as the main adjustments seem to be intended to 1) adjust power, and 2) adjust beam width, and then considering the above example of Data looking for the right frequency, while the beam itself appears to be at different widths during Data's various attempts, I got to wondering. The nature of waves is not a strong point under my current knowledge base, but, as I understand it, the overall power, wavelength/frequency, and amplitude are all interconnected. Is it a possibility that wider beam settings include higher amplitude, in turn affecting frequency at a given power level? Just a quick thought.
For weapon frequency, that kind of adjustment would probably not be something a person would normally do in a combat situation, unless you happen to be an android with far better reflexes and intelligence.

In TOS we did see phaser settings adjusted via the dial at the back of the Type-II pistol, such as what Kirk does when attempting the grave digging in "That Which Survives". In the ENT-era phase pistols, setting or power or could be adjusted with a little dial on the side of the pistol as seen in "Civilization". In "The Cage/ "Menagerie", the "laser" pistol outputs were changed via rotating the barrel section.

Only in the TNG-era do we see the push-button LED light system, and it seems that TNG phasers have vastly greater versatility and utility than their predecessors, which is probably why the system was adopted.

As for the rest, that makes as much sense as anything else.
-Mike

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Darth Spock » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:11 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: For weapon frequency, that kind of adjustment would probably not be something a person would normally do in a combat situation, unless you happen to be an android with far better reflexes and intelligence.
Well, that's kind of what I was thinking. In the past, I have consciously avoided thinking about how exactly the phaser accomplishes its innumerable feats with so few buttons. As I recall, most other instances of complex adjustments came with brief scenes of the phaser being opened up, or with already adjusted phasers being handed out, as when going out to engage the Borg. But just as the phaser comes with 16 power settings associated with a variety of expected results, i.e. "stun," "burn," "kill," "vaporize," so may the unit use a number of preset width adjustments. If such presets incorporate tight wave amplitudes for the narrowest, most precise beam settings, but if wider settings also utilize a broader waveform, this could, to my basic understanding, result in an altered frequency as well. Of course, as you say, on the fly adjustments would likely be limited to an android, or vague guesstimations of the presets from memory.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:58 pm

It's the TOS problem. There are many times where you have to wonder how they get so much information from a set of blinky lights with no display screen on it.

Provides security by obscurity, sure, but there's no reason they couldn't have a wee screen or even better.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:54 pm

The basic reality of Phaser vs. Tank without Young's strange and irrelevant ideas is that Dude-with-Phaser can one-shot a Sherman and a Sherman can one-shot Dude-with-Phaser in similar timeframes.

The question then falls to issues like range. A Sherman's best-case range would be several kilometers assuming ideal conditions. Dude-with-Phaser has no clearly known maximum range, but since we never see them shoot to orbit we can presume less than a hundred kilometers. In fairness, though, he should be able to at least kinda see the tank, so we can roll with the 1.2 kilometer range for laying down fire seen on Cestus III.

So yeah, for one-shotting, the tank can be said to have range, if for no other reason than telescopic sighting. Dude-with-Phaser would be relying on Mk. I eyeballs.

But no sane combatant is going to stand around exposed awaiting long-range fire, and Dude-with-Phaser is easier to conceal than a tank. The tank is also louder in motion and comparatively blind when buttoned up.

Put simply, then, Dude-with-Phaser is like WW2's Dude-with-Panzerfaust with ten or twenty times the effective range and far better kill-shot potential.

Sorry, tank fans, but unless the fight is on the Bonneville Salt Flats it doesn't automatically and overwhelmingly favor the Sherman. And even there the phaser could be used to dig a quick foxhole and hope the tank passes by or can be lured in.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:28 pm

2046 wrote:1. Part 1 of my retort: http://weblog.st-v-sw.net/2015/04/phase ... -pt-i.html

2. And it looks like Darth Spock has stolen my thunder on Part II, anticipating some of my thunder, e.g. short-range anti-tank weapons.

However, there is still, I think, a good bit more to do, and having done most of the research I need only do the narrative.
Part II: http://weblog.st-v-sw.net/2015/04/phase ... pt-ii.html

Basically a heavily expanded version of the post above this one.

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