Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Darth Spock » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:57 am

Once more, I would like to clarify, I do not personally believe a phaser would struggle to cut through steel. In this case I find myself playing devil's advocate. Point in fact, I actually looked this plasteel incident up myself a few weeks back when I first encountered this thread, but discarded it for the reason given before. As an aside, the video in question is the first scifights video I've even seen. Honestly, I'm supposed to spend hours downloading videos hundreds of MB in size, no choice about video quality or anything, on my flaky internet connection?! Ain't nobody got time for that! Sheesh. But, back on topic, here is my response, not necessarily representative of my personal interpretation of the events portrayed, but still relevant I believe.

Mike DiCenso wrote: Well, as a rebuttal, it's not all that good.

-Can't see the setting? Let's look at a high-def image from Trekcore:

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16/ ... hd_265.jpg

You can see the phaser settings, but just barely. There is no sign of the red bar indicator that 395 has pointed out that would indicate they are set to maximum. Only green is visible.
I would say here that the earlier model type 2 stays green all the way up to max setting. Reference.

*Of course in truth, I'm not really sure how this particular model behaves. It is obviously significantly different from the others.*

- As for plasteel, the link you sent to was about an automobile that uses one of several patented name brands. But it could just as easily use like this Plasteel which is a fairly thick core of steel encased in plastic.
My response here would be that you can't prove that is not a lighter alloy, and that even a wall made with layers of steel and plastic isn't much better. Alternating layers could make the wall half plastic, or more.

- Thickness of the plasteel and size of the hole:

Tasha standing right next to hole immediately after cutting through:

http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16/ ... hd_269.jpg

Worf and Tasha next to the hole:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16/ ... hd_271.jpg

Interesting here is that we can not only gauge the thickness of the material (compare the thickness of the plasteel to Worf's extended hand with the phaser), as well as the width of the hole cut, but we can see around the outside edges significant carbon scoring as well. The wall is at least 8 cm thick and really given that we are viewing it at a three quarter angle, likely 9-10 cm. The hole is easily 1.5 meters tall compared to the 1.85 m tall Worf, and about as wide. So both phasers cut an approximately 2.25 square meter hole out of 10 cm thick material.
Here, I would point back to the second picture with Worf, then point you to this reference: http://www.propstore.com/product/star-t ... er-phaser/
This puts the phaser's width at 8 cm. The phaser in Worf's hand is still behind the wall, yet it's width appears to exceed the depth of the wall. Then I would reference this picture:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16/ ... hd_272.jpg
Using this picture, and your given height of Worf of 1.85 meters, would put the slab on the floor at no more than 7 cm.

*In truth, my original guestimation put the wall between 3-4 inches, my smart arse "underestimate" may actually be right...*

Then, using the same picture, and the same 1.85 height of Worf as a gauge, I would put the hole in the wall at no more than 1.2 meters tall. I would then cry foul at the originally referenced video:
Mike DiCenso wrote: You can see it here starting at 104:46 and ending at 104:56.
-Mike
That video has been sped up! Lies! Manipulations! It actually took longer to cut through! Yadda yadda.

*I know the video is altered by the poster on youtube to evade copyright infringements*

Also, when we actually see cutting happen, the rate is much slower than what is implied by the 10 seconds *about 13, unaltered* of elapsed time on the video. It completely ignores the cut scenes, the whole operation could have taken a minute or more.

*Bonus points for role reversal.*

We also have to bear in mind that Worf and Tasha were ordered to cut a way through, not blast or vaporize, which keeps in with the landing party's goal of rescuing hostages might be on the other side of that wall:
I would say here, that the admiral could hardly order them to vaporize a clean and quiet hole in the wall as was done in TNG: Chain of Command, if in fact the phaser was incapable of doing more than barely cutting through it to form the perimeter of a hole.


Also, you can clearly see that the phaser setting indicator is showing green, not red or yellow on Worf's phaser, though it is possible Worf has just set his phaser back to stun settings. In fact, we know that the green lights indicate a higher than stun setting since Picard orders phasers back to stun when it falls under an ambush by Karna's soldiers:
*As I said above, I'm not really sure what the original "dustbuster" model type II looks like at max setting. But I'm sure a determined arguer would push for it being on max.*

So in conclusion, not only can a mere hand phasers cut through the steelplast, and what is likely a mid-range setting in matter of seconds.
-Mike
Again, speaking for my personal take on phaser power, I agree, but again, if the reader doesn't want to accept it, there's just enough room to fight this example.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:40 pm

Darth Spock wrote:Once more, I would like to clarify, I do not personally believe a phaser would struggle to cut through steel. In this case I find myself playing devil's advocate. Point in fact, I actually looked this plasteel incident up myself a few weeks back when I first encountered this thread, but discarded it for the reason given before. As an aside, the video in question is the first scifights video I've even seen. Honestly, I'm supposed to spend hours downloading videos hundreds of MB in size, no choice about video quality or anything, on my flaky internet connection?! Ain't nobody got time for that! Sheesh. But, back on topic, here is my response, not necessarily representative of my personal interpretation of the events portrayed, but still relevant I believe.
Oh, I am aware of that and in responding I'm showing just how weak the opposition tends to be when they use arguments like the ones you are. Mostly you've managed to duplicate nicely one thing the opposition does when they respond: Wall of Text to try and make their arguments look like they have substance, but really are just an attempt to force answer after answer and changing the goal posts while at it to eventually force the person they are arguing with to give up in frustration.

I would say here that the earlier model type 2 stays green all the way up to max setting. Reference.

*Of course in truth, I'm not really sure how this particular model behaves. It is obviously significantly different from the others.*
Certainly, but one of our few data points says that we should see a red light on TNG-era pistols.
- As for plasteel, the link you sent to was about an automobile that uses one of several patented name brands. But it could just as easily use like this Plasteel which is a fairly thick core of steel encased in plastic.
My response here would be that you can't prove that is not a lighter alloy, and that even a wall made with layers of steel and plastic isn't much better. Alternating layers could make the wall half plastic, or more.
You have yet to address the heavy metallic clanging sound the slab makes when it hits the floor on the other side indicating a fair amount of metal in the make up of whatever the material is, and sound indicates a fairly heavy and by extension dense material.

That and as noted in the examples from TNG's the "The Vengence Factor" and TOS' "That which Survives", phasers should be able to generate temperatures more than sufficient to boil iron or steel quite readily.
Here, I would point back to the second picture with Worf, then point you to this reference: http://www.propstore.com/product/star-t ... er-phaser/
This puts the phaser's width at 8 cm. The phaser in Worf's hand is still behind the wall, yet it's width appears to exceed the depth of the wall. Then I would reference this picture:
http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16/ ... hd_272.jpg
Using this picture, and your given height of Worf of 1.85 meters, would put the slab on the floor at no more than 7 cm.

*In truth, my original guestimation put the wall between 3-4 inches, my smart arse "underestimate" may actually be right...*
In truth, Michael Dorn's height is really 6'4". So I actually slightly underestimated it. It's also my fault I didn't look it up, but that did provide a lower end estimate. The same also happens to be Jonathan Frakes (Riker) height as well. Since we now have a concrete number to work with we can actually do some proper photometrics on the image. The slab's right side corner closest to Worf's heel in the image size (default image size without expanding it) is about 10 one hundredths of an inch. Worf measures from bottom of heel to top of ridged head at about 2.18 inches. (note: I am not taking into account the makeup Dorn is wearing as well as the shoes he is wearing adding into his overall height which can add a few more inched easily). So 2.18/.10 = 21.8 to 1. Dorn is 76" tall, 76/21.8 = 3.486". Then we multiply 3.486 by 2.54 which then gives us 8.855 cm. So neither of us were exactly right. Of course this does not take into account the extra height added by footwear or the Klingon makeup, so it is a bit on the conservative side of things, thus about 9 cm would not be too unreasonable a figure to argue for here.
Then, using the same picture, and the same 1.85 height of Worf as a gauge, I would put the hole in the wall at no more than 1.2 meters tall. I would then cry foul at the originally referenced video:
Since Worf is actually at least 6.3 feet tall, or about 1.92m it would be wrong. Now the trick of the image you are using is that Worf is standing about a meter or so from the hole itself and so any estimate will be slightly conservative. The other variable here is that the hole is fairly irregular in shape. I measure it's height at about 1.08". So 2.18/1.08 = 2.01. So 1.92/2.01 = .960 meters. So you were closer to being right. The slab's width is hard to gauge with Picard's body blocking it, but they seem about the same at the broadest point.

But again I make the caveat that Worf is standing a good meter away from the hole, so it would not be unreasonable to bump it up in size to a full meter or so. Imagine someone cutting a hole like that into the chassis of a tank, or into it's treads, or even cutting the barrel of the main gun clean in half. Or even hitting secondary armament.

You might not be able to outright destroy a tank in one shot, but a phaser at least allows for significant damage and disablement of the vehicle with one or a few well-placed shots.
That video has been sped up! Lies! Manipulations! It actually took longer to cut through! Yadda yadda.

*I know the video is altered by the poster on youtube to evade copyright
infringements*

Also, when we actually see cutting happen, the rate is much slower than what is implied by the 10 seconds *about 13, unaltered* of elapsed time on the video. It completely ignores the cut scenes, the whole operation could have taken a minute or more.

*Bonus points for role reversal.*
Using that as an argument would be dishonesty. The Millennium Falcon cutscenes in ANH, for example, argue for more time passing than what is seen precisely because the ship is shown moving no faster than it was when it lifted off, and other things having happened that cannot be explained in just a few seconds time. In TSAS, its the opposite; Tasha and Worf are not arching their beams around any faster or slower in the cut from one shot to the next, hence a contiguous scene and time.
I would say here, that the admiral could hardly order them to vaporize a clean and quiet hole in the wall as was done in TNG: Chain of Command, if in fact the phaser was incapable of doing more than barely cutting through it to form the perimeter of a hole.
Since we have seen a phaser in "Chain of Command" vaporize away a moderately sized tunnel in about 30 seconds time, you have to show that this particular model of phaser pistol was unable to do the same, or cannot do more than cut the outline of a hole.

The fact you are still not addressing is that the Admiral doesn't know if the hostages are exactly on the other side of the wall and a more powerful setting and their effects might significantly increase said hostages risk of being harmed.
*As I said above, I'm not really sure what the original "dustbuster" model type II looks like at max setting. But I'm sure a determined arguer would push for it being on max.*
That is a point with more reasonable debaters I'd concede the point since we have only one or two data points to work from were we see what settings on maximum look like.
Again, speaking for my personal take on phaser power, I agree, but again, if the reader doesn't want to accept it, there's just enough room to fight this example.
To reiterate, that has been the problem in the debates with some of the opposition, no matter how much evidence is provided and how clear it may be presented.
-Mike

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Darth Spock » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:15 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: Oh, I am aware of that and in responding I'm showing just how weak the opposition tends to be when they use arguments like the ones you are. Mostly you've managed to duplicate nicely one thing the opposition does when they respond: Wall of Text to try and make their arguments look like they have substance, but really are just an attempt to force answer after answer and changing the goal posts while at it to eventually force the person they are arguing with to give up in frustration.
Yeah, which is what I was ultimately referring to about the example being too vague. After looking in to it a bit, it looked like a one way ticket to a headache inducing carousel ride. Of course the whole thing hinges on tiny technicalities, previous assumptions, latching on to the connotative qualities of the suffix "plast" while ignoring the possibility that steelplast could just as well be far stronger than normal steel, and dirty fighting.
I'm sorry about that too, I got my self into the spirit of what I expected in such a rebuttal and ran with it. No hard feelings I hope.

It also seems pretty clear that a phaser would be dangerous to a tank, as you said, and that is the key issue, that a 24th century hand gun is a legitimate threat to a tank. But I expect no satisfaction from targeting a weak point, however logical that is. The gold standard seems to be: can a phaser muscle it's way through the tanks armor quickly, 'cuz it's not gonna sit there and let you aim carefully. Bleh.
Mike DiCenso wrote: To reiterate, that has been the problem in the debates with some of the opposition, no matter how much evidence is provided and how clear it may be presented.
-Mike
With that in mind, I dropped the steelplast idea, and went looking for what exactly the weakness of phasers is supposed to be. We see phasers "cut" through "metal," generate temperatures high enough to melt and vaporize steel, they "vaporize" humans almost 100 kg, and can explode or "vaporize" hundreds of kg of rock. So whats left for a weakness? It's not the molecular structure, all these different materials fail pretty quickly under fire. It's not the mass, even with that limitation, if a proportionately smaller volume of steel tank armor is destroyed, a few seconds should still be plenty to absolutely FUBAR a tank. The big fall back seems to be "density." So, make it enough denser than stone, such as steel's roughly 7.8 g/cm3 and suddenly the efficiency of the phaser's magic mechanism of destruction drops off considerably.

So I began checking to see if indeed particularly dense materials (preferably ones that are actually known) consistently repelled hand phasers. The most useful examples I found of phaser success or failure is against unnamed or ambiguously named materials, like the steelplast. A Klingon vaporized with his Bat'leth would be good, to see if it goes up, or if the "vaporization" effect fizzles out and it drops to the ground. I've yet to find a reference for that though. What I did find however, is the humble Federation combadge.

It's small, and probably would be dismissed as an insignificant example subject to the no limits fallacy, but even so, given it's gold casing would have a material density of 19.3 g/cm3, I would expect some some odd results from time to time, if in fact, the efficiency of phaser a beam is extremely dependent the targets density or atomic weight. I would expect a badge popping in a small explosion when the wearer gets "vaporized," or to see one clatter to the floor as a burnt husk. But every time a Starfleet crew member gets POOCED with a quick beam, everything, including the combadge goes up in the same clean manner as the rest of the target. Of course, I expect that would be dismissed the same, but personally I think it brings the magical density limitation idea into question.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 359 » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:01 am

The combadge idea is cleaver, good one.

The issue with arguing against density dependance is there is not too much against it. On the other hand, there is nothing to support it either. It is simply a result of looking for a way to nerf the device conceptually, and finding what one is already looking for. Although it has no evidence, and thus shouldn't be needed to argue against people can be stubborn.

And if you are looking for instances of metals being vaporized there is the spun steel pot in "Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country" as seen in these images:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1435.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1436.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1437.jpg

Which oddly enough leaves behind the lower density mashed potatoes, dough, or whatever that is. This indicates some method of target discrimination over density effects.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:38 am

I had also looked for a vaporized bat'leth to no avail. The mass of 5.3 kilograms suggests a heavy-ass object, moreso than most any non-ceremonial sword.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:50 pm

Well, not vaporized metal, but we do have the melted deck plate seen in "Aquiel" where pseudo-Lt. Rocha had been standing when Aquiel vaporized him with her phaser:

Image

What's interesting about this is that it is indirect damage done when a phaser hit and vaped away a target. Interesting thing about this is that there is still molecular residue fused in the deck plate:

CRUSHER: The cellular residue is completely fused with to metal of the deck plate. We're trying to micro-vaporise the metal in order to get a clear DNA sample.

PICARD: Do you have any idea what killed her?

CRUSHER: Well this is just a guess, but from the molecular deposition on the plating I'd say it was a high-level phaser blast.

RIKER: Could it have been a Klingon disruptor?

CRUSHER: Possibly.


That no one found any of this unusual that such material could survive, much less be extracted, says a lot about the nature of phasers (and potentially disruptors). But the deck plate being melted from secondary effects is really what's important here since it means at a high setting, a direct hit would likely have done significantly more damage to the deck plating and in a relatively short span of time.
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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Darth Spock » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:31 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Well, not vaporized metal, but we do have the melted deck plate seen in "Aquiel" where pseudo-Lt. Rocha had been standing when Aquiel vaporized him with her phaser:
-Mike
Oh, good one. Especially given that the phaser that was found set on level 10 was indeed the weapon that caused the damage, unintended, collateral damage, no less. With over 500 hours of Trek floating around, I would expect an example somewhere to put this whole thing to bed, but as 359 said, the lack of support for phasers failing to damage "steel" is more damning in light of what they have accomplished. As no Starfleet officer was courteous enough to say: "Sir, this is 10 cm of AR500 21st century Earth steel, we will need to cut through with our phasers on setting 7," the more messed up metal the merrier. ;P

Sorry to get off topic, but all this gets me to where I can't help but wonder. Would the boys who vote no to a phaser mauling a tank also say a blaster couldn't take down a tank? I bet that would be fun to read!

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:49 am

It was indeed stated to be set to level ten and Dr. Crusher had said at sometime before that that at that setting it would take 30-40 seconds of sustained phaser fire to totally disintegrate Rocha.

Oh and speaking of which, it looks like someone who goes by the moniker "Starshipdown" is really giving Brian a run for his money on the subject.

That isn't you, by any chance, is it? ;-)

Regardless, I love watching Brian squirm when someone brings up inconvenient facts to him.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:19 pm

Wait, level 10 for 30-40s? That is jacked up. A TNG Type-I can vape a guy with a single shot more than once per charge as per "Up the Long Ladder", and AFAIK we only see 8 settings. Even the TOS Phaser One was vape-capable.

I suppose there could be more or different settings (e.g. Type I does 2-16 by 2s, or has an early-TNG indicator with blue and green that overlay allowing 16, or you can adjust the vape vs roast level, etc), but 10 seems awfully high insofar as a sustained setting required to burn a cat down, especially given the noranium example.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:04 pm

Thirty to forty seconds does sound a bit odd, and that is brought up in the commentary on YouTube, that and the fact that a similar phaser pistol used by Geordi against the coalescent life form. Also notable is that phasers are supposed to be set on level one when in storage, and so when Geordi first fires on the thing, its likely on low stun, and then he changes settings and vaporizes it, which only takes at most about 2 seconds.
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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Darth Spock » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:57 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: Oh and speaking of which, it looks like someone who goes by the moniker "Starshipdown" is really giving Brian a run for his money on the subject.
Hum, that name rings a bell somehow, I haven't ventured beyond these forums in the vs. arena myself. It might be a nice time to broaden my horizons though. :)

2046 wrote:Wait, level 10 for 30-40s? That is jacked up. A TNG Type-I can vape a guy with a single shot more than once per charge as per "Up the Long Ladder", and AFAIK we only see 8 settings. Even the TOS Phaser One was vape-capable.

I suppose there could be more or different settings (e.g. Type I does 2-16 by 2s, or has an early-TNG indicator with blue and green that overlay allowing 16, or you can adjust the vape vs roast level, etc), but 10 seems awfully high insofar as a sustained setting required to burn a cat down, especially given the noranium example.
That kind of sounds like a case "these go to eleven." Who knows what changes or enhancements may have come with the redesign, but either the older models and Type I use a color change system, (I'm not familiar with the blue green overlay) or the 8 or 10 indicator lights just reflect a different setting system, rather than being capped at either 8 or 10 on the more familiar 16 setting system.

Early Type I

Early Type II
Mike DiCenso wrote:Thirty to forty seconds does sound a bit odd, and that is brought up in the commentary on YouTube, that and the fact that a similar phaser pistol used by Geordi against the coalescent life form. Also notable is that phasers are supposed to be set on level one when in storage, and so when Geordi first fires on the thing, its likely on low stun, and then he changes settings and vaporizes it, which only takes at most about 2 seconds.
-Mike
I took an extra look at the episode scenes and transcript. These bits paint a rather specific picture to me:

RIKER: Doctor Crusher tells me that in order to inflict the kind of molecular damage found in Rocha's remains, it would take a sustained phaser discharge of at least thirty to forty seconds. That doesn't sound like self-defence to me.

LAFORGE: Now wait a minute. We haven't even established this phaser is the murder weapon yet. And even at level ten I don't see how it could have done the damage the medical evidence says it did. A phase disruptor like a Klingon weapon, maybe.


The focus seems to be on the biological remains, which is radically different from a human, but which they still cannot tell is non-human yet. The deck plate seems to be largely ignored in this investigation.

The phaser that shot, but did not kill or destroy the jelly monster was found on level 10, typically considered a "kill" setting on normal humanoids with typical nervous systems. When LaForge is later attacked, if my "beep" count is correct, and assuming phasers don't need to be turned on or have a safety taken off, he initially fired on the being at level 5/16 for several seconds. He then "beeped" 8 more times, bringing us to level 13/16, and it vaporized after a couple of seconds.

The 30-40 second figure is the best guess they can come up with to explain cellular damage that doesn't make sense, especially on level 10, a powerful setting, but not one normally associated with the remains they are investigating, or with "vaporization" in general. Remember, they are assuming Rocha was "vaporized," in fact the creature that was shot remained and left only a portion of damaged cellular material behind. This is, however, unequivocally the phaser that indeed did the damage to the deck plate, and almost certainly at the level 10 setting, and most likely not for a 30-40 second stand off.

Of course, from a debate standpoint, this speculation won't be of much use, although it does strike me as the most likely scenario. By the time I finished assuming the deck plate was aluminum, minimized the amount of material that could barely have been brought to the melting temperature, all while the jelly monster acted as a perfect conductor, dumping almost all of the phaser energy into the floor, for the full 40 seconds, I managed to jack the beam down to about 1 KW. So, yeah.

Getting back to the tank example, the more examples that need to be explained away, the better. For Brian Young's video on the topic though, that one should actually be a lot simpler. Scrounging around for evidence that a phaser can cut through steel doesn't seem to be necessary, his phasers.mov directly supports this anyway. Going straight with his own basic theory, no modification, he supports megawatt power for the phaser, and even assuming a mysterious disintegrator beam, where-in materials that fail to disintegrate generate waste heat, conservation of energy would still provide more than enough energy to not only damage a tanks armor, but bore through the main frontal armor and out the back in a couple of seconds. Ignoring the odd transporter related waste heat theory, a simple particle beam in the megawatt range is even simpler.

The idea that that a phaser would fail to threaten a tank seems to me to be mostly based on sentiment, and in-universe parallels. Sure, I doubt a hand phaser could damage a 24th century tank, thanks to shields and new material science. But assuming a phaser wouldn't threaten a 20th century tank based on it's role on the battlefield, is more like saying a solider armed with a modern machine gun couldn't overcome the armor of ancient siege machines, such as the covered gallery near the bottom of this link, or an ancient Testudo formation.

As far as a pawn vs. bishop, foot soldier vs tank analogy goes, of course they are of different classes on the battlefield. But a foot soldier isn't precluded from using a bazooka against a tank, in fact, doing so can be quite advantageous.
Now, is attacking a tank with a phaser pistol the proper weapon or tactic for the job? No. Does that mean it's hopeless, and special equipment must be called in to do what the phaser cannot? No. Not any more than a soldier with a machine gun would need to call in an air strike to eliminate an ancient "armored" war machine.

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:39 pm

Kudos on the "jelly monster" moniker.

Also, here is some of the blue overlay action:

Image

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by 2046 » Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:56 pm

After posting the above, I realized I had no context for the overlay. So I pull that up on Netflix and man, there's all kinds of stuff going on there. Data's punching buttons later just as he starts working to free Riker and there's stuff sliding across and the whole row blinks and so on. The UI is a lot more complex than generally assumed.

That's at 13:45ish. At 17:05ish he does stuff again without so much obvious blinkology.

Also, when Data unholsters his phaser, all the lights are on green. So, that is another disproof, unless we are to assume Data had it on max. Similarly, Tasha's lights are on just before Riker is encased.

Brian would no doubt argue that it is a difference of phaser model, but that hardly makes sense. Why nerf the UI?

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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:28 am

That brings up an interesting point. In TOS we only saw two distinct types of hand phasers; the little "noisy cricket" sized Type-1 and the pistol Type-2. But never any significant variation of those were seen throughout all three seasons of the series outside of the reused "The Cage" and WNMHGB pilot "laser" pistol prop, most notably wielded by Professor Crater in "The Man Trap".

But TNG-era Trek is very different, as we are shown several Type-1s, Type 2s, and rifle designs, each of which may have better capabilities or are intended for other uses. In the "Arsenal of Freedom" example, Data was attempting to remove the stasis forcefield by finding its frequency:

PICARD: Any changes?

TASHA: Data's figured out what it is.

CRUSHER: Are you getting any life signs?

DATA: He is alive. What appeared in the form of Captain Rice is an intelligence gathering device used during the Ersalrope Wars.

TASHA: Probably developed here.

DATA: It projects an image of someone the subject will trust, gets as much information as possible.

TASHA: If it's found out, it encases the subject to await a more detailed interrogation later.

CRUSHER: Clever.

PICARD: Can you remove it?

DATA: Possibly, but I will need to know the exact frequency and I cannot determine the risk to Commander Riker.

PICARD: We have little choice. Whatever has him is interrupting the transporter beam. Remove it.

DATA: (adjusting his phaser) This will take some time, sir.


So whatever changes Data was making to the settings on that phaser, it was to alter the beam frequency, and a short while later we find out that it was set on stun, not kill:

TASHA: This one is different. It's anticipating. Data, I need you. Set your phaser on kill. I'll lead left, you get it.

(It takes both phasers to destroy it)

TASHA: Captain? Doctor Crusher?

DATA: Captain Picard? (the communicator does not beep) I have a malfunction.

TASHA: Enterprise, this is Lieutenant Yar. Mine's out too.

DATA: The close pass by the weapons must have disrupted our communicators.

TASHA: Keep on working. I'll look for the Captain and Doctor Crusher.


So do the colors indicate stun/kill, or frequency?
-Mike

Mike DiCenso
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Re: Review of scifights.net Phasers Case Study

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:47 pm

Here's another interesting possibility, this time from TOS' "The Enemy Within" :

Image

In HD:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x05h ... nhd518.jpg

This is the damage done by Evil Kirk's phaser to the main transporter circuit casing. Interesting that the casing is carbon scored and melted, and the only broken wires are nowhere near enough to account for all that damage, nor like the later plasma conduits, they are gushing out anything, not even sparks from electrical arching.
-Mike

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