Honestly I'd forgotten about this discussion but if your still willing I'm game Mr. Oragahn. Of course, in light of the back and forth nature of our replies, I am also perfectly willing to agree to disagree should decide that. Ulimatly I would argue we have such a fundimental schism that no other agreement is possible.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Iran has a president, but the religious power is strong and works on the understanding of the divine teachings revealed to Muhammad by Yawveh/God/Allah and put into the Quran. Plus some haddiths.
Iran is an interesting example because the president can be replaced by a Council of the High Lords of Terra and we get the almost exact configuration of the Imperium.
And if you have evidence the “Church” can do this to the High Lords, act as power behind the throne as it were as is the case in Iran, I will change my opinion.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Recognizing a Law, taking it as granted and guiding (as specified in the WH40K books), which is clearly religious, and enforcing it, cannot mean anything else but being religious.
Religiously derived as virtually all laws are throughout history. Murder for instance was decried in various Religions long before the current Governments enacted the laws pertaining thereto.
Call it a softer theocracy where the clergy doesn't directly control all or hasn't necessarily the final say. But it's to be mitigated, because the final say still remains tributary of the understanding of the Law, which is religious, and the authority to refer to in order to properly understand said Law still remains the Imperium's official and unique clergy.
Except the laws, while handed down from a being now regarded as holy, are civil statues enforced and carried out by organizations and people not endowed with divine status. Which, I would argue, is the sticking point. Just about any law or moral underpinning of society can be traced back to some religion if you go far enough. A core part of my argument is that religion by itself is not enough to equal theocracy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:What makes the reading of the political structure harder is that a large part of its lead is "religiously secular", in a sort of catholic way, and is not subordinated to one or several members of the clergy.
I don’t think I would call the IOM a secular organization, “religiously secular” or otherwise. It’s a deeply religious organization but that alone does not make it a theocracy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Also, wikipedia is all too subjective a source to bother with in this case.
You quoted Wikipedia. I was merely highlighting your source didn't agree with your argument.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The USA, with its allegiance to its flag under the authority of God, is pretty much "influenced by theological or moral concepts".
Which, according to your definition, makes it a theocracy. A nation which constitutionally is prevented from passing laws concerning religion. Which I hoped would make a point.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:As for monarchies held by the grace of god, I didn't include them. Without the presence of a religious Law enforced by the authority, you need rulers who claim -or are recognized- to be of divine essence to some extent and also claim to further the will of gods.
Except ye kings of old were blatantly justifying their right to rule via a god like being. They were equally as divinely appointed to their throne as the High Lords were/are/will be. You can't just give them a pass.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:We also have to be careful with talking about the Byzantine Empire, since it evolved, exactly as the IoM did.
It is even more funny because many historians refer to the Byzantine Empire as a theocracy. In other sources, its Emperor is clearly defined as endowed with large religious authority, elected by God, if not literally his walking equivalent or created by God directly, and later under Macedonian influence, the elective title would be extended to his family.
In many ways, this is more theocratic than the IoM, yet wikipedia doesn't enjoy defining this empire as a theocracy. Bad for them, couldn't care less. It's merely the opinion of some anonymous editor in the end.
I don't believe I mentioned the Byzantine empire. And just for the record again you cited Wikipedia.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I think right now we could stop splitting hairs to some impossible extent.
In Warhammer 40000, the High Lords rule on behalf of the GEoM. They represent his authority. They also follow the Lex Imperialis, which is like the New Testament
They serve in his absence yes. They also believe he is a god and strive to follow his example and teachings. To that end they have enacted a “law book”, which we must note is distinct from the holy book of the “Church”, based on his rulings, edicts etc he purportedly made while still alive. Religiously motivated? I’d agree whole heartedly. Incestuous relationship with the “Church”? Again I would concur. But is that enough to make it a theocracy? I would argue not, many laws in the US are similar if not derived from biblical morality.
Further in any representative society one would expect citizens to emplace laws and regulations they feel are in sync with their values which would be heavily influenced by their religion. As long as the mechanism of governance are distinct from the religion itself there shouldn’t be an issue but a honest reflection of the peoples’ whims and wishes. And while a crummy, broken down and very poor example the IOM does have distinct, if interlocked, mechanisms of worship and governance. Your Planetary Governor may feel his he carrying out the Emperor’s will, to further his goals here on “earth”, but he doesn’t claim to be a mouth piece for the Emperor or that he is in a direct and personal communion to justify his position or edicts.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Add to that the following facts: one of the High Lords helms a branch of the power dedicated to the merciless application of this Book of Law, and another very powerful branch dedicated to the spread and solidification of the Cult of the GEoM.
The Adeptus Arbites are at best a subdivision of a group which falls under the purview of a High Lord of Terra and involves the enforcing of the civil laws of the IOM. And no evidence has been presented that the representative of the "Church" is any more powerful than the other special mentions.
But leaving all that by the side we still have a book of law which you have provided no evidence would be any different or enforced any less radically if they merely revered the Big E as a "great man" as opposed to a god. You have provided no evidence these rules are carried out and invested with actual divine authority as opposed to people earnestly trying to live by the teachings of their chosen deity.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, I present an important element that clearly makes the SI much less secular than you would think
I really wouldn't call the IOM secular. I think they are devoutly religious. Religious zealots. I just don't think that makes them theocratic by any reasonable metric.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The claim is clear: they have a link with God
In so much as they believe in a greater power and seek his guidance. Just about every US President would meet that criterion. Hell I'd go out on a ledge and say that most leaders on this globe, if pressed, believed in some higher power and sought guidance from it.
This is far and away from justifying authority via a special connection to god.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Not all symbols have the same value, and it is also correct that in several ways, the claim of following God's authority (notably as repeated during the allegiance to the flag) really makes this case almost borderline at times.
I honestly don't see what's borderline under your definition. By your logic all US Presidents sheath themselves in the divine. So either the US is a theocracy or your definition is too loose to be of value.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This is pretty much why the USA would easily flip into a theocracy at the first incursion of Daemons.
And I, ironically, would argue that our faith would help prevent us from joining up with neo-fascist snake oil salesmen who promise to make the pain go away.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:In fact there have been debates to consider that the very preachy government under Bush was very theocratic.
And I would argue that’s conflicting a person guided by his religious principals which, unless you forbid office to theists, you can’t deny and theocracy. Overall I’d rate such claims as serious as those arguments of fascism.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:OK, I guess I didn't fully appreciate the value of the "".
Then we would have to define exactly what the inspiration is all about and what the results are. It may be too vague here.
If you want examples: Ron the Republican, due to his interpretations of his religion, proposes legislation against abortion. Danny the Democrat, due to his interpretations of his religion, pushes legislation to aid the poor. Or really anything, the point being any and all are placed for a vote without any special weighting because "God said so" and passed or not on its merits.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It is still completely irrevelant. We focus on the present system, not what it once was millennia ago, just as much as you don't judge the spiritual and juidicial mechanisms of the current Catholic dogma based on proto-christianity or whatever existed before that. Especially when we know it was a different beast.
It is very much relevant because the Emperor is the Emperor, he passed/created laws and customs which would be passed down and enforced even if he wasn't worshipped as a god. Which means your argument of "Lex imperialis still in effect=theocracy" is overly simplistic. That's like saying because the US has laws against murder and because the ten commandments, which US law was influenced by, speak out against murder the US must be a Theocracy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Probably a slightly weak form of it, but yes.
Then no nation really could pass your test. The very morality of the western world can be traced back to religion. So congratulations, we're all theocrats now. ;)
Mr. Oragahn wrote:There would be elements to add to make it a strong form of theocracy. The claim of infaillibility, a special link with said god in some fashion would definitely help, beyond mere faith which would be expected of any follower.
This would be your assumption and would largely be irrelevant. Even if the politician believed he was Washington reborn any measure would still have to passed by Congress, approved by the President and, if need be, verified of its constitutionality by the Judicial branch. Hence the distinction between Church and State and religious minded people, which I argue are needed for society to function, and a theocratic state.
Not to say that we do have evidence that the High Lords are considered in the light of God directly, and by this, always with his spirit.
If you are referring to your previous quote I found less it less than convincing.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That is basically what you'd hear any random description of Popes
A Pope does a little more than pray for guidance.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:What it was is of no importance, just as less as the form of the god wouldn't matter a nut as long as what is worshipped is of divine nature.
Yes it does. If the Emperor wasn't worshipped as a god but merely revered as a "great man" and instead the Ecclesiarchy worshipped a teakettle the basic structure of the IOM would be unchanged. The book of law and its enforcement, for all we know, would be unchanged. To me that suggest something worthy of consideration.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It also takes a really bad faith to claim that if the world would be ruled by the Papacy, we couldn't call that a theocracy.
There is no bad faith and I haven't made any arguments regarding the Papacy. My argument is that the IOM in its civil/religious schism is similar to medieval Europe. The Papacy had no direct control in the various fiefdoms even if it was a powerful influence in people's lives.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I didn't say they give orders, I said they put obstacles.
And I would like examples. What structural, official obstacles can the "Church" put on the High Lords?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:They make general guidelines, sometimes go into detail (because the preachers still have at least one book to preach from so there obviously is a ton of material to follow).
Unless you have evidence to the contrary a preacher can't make guidelines or laws or rulings anymore than a medieval priest could. They simply have no official power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Besides, contrary to what you claim, preachers alone already have the power to hand heretics over to the Judges
The fact they would have to defer to Judges is proof they lack certain authorities.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:and this is clearly a form of authority that applies to all within the IoM safe for the obscure groups and the dready Inquisition
A kinda citizen's arrest? Show me where an Imperial Guard general has to defer structurally to a priest, as opposed to realpolitik, and I will readjust my argument. Until then I would say your grasping at straws.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Your analysis of the Imperium is not only stuck into reading too much about its past, but it is also way too formal.
I believe understanding the IOM's past is essential to understanding it in the current era and I make the distinction between structural policy and "office politices"/realpolitik. The latter can buoy a priest to power but it can also empower a governor or a war hero and is not inherent to any particular governmental system. Hence, for clarity, I prefer looking at the "base system".
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This is why you miss all facts that scream theocracy at every corner.
I would instead argue we merely have different ideas on what a theocracy is.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Interestingly, the two examples you gave a clearly subordinates of the Adeptus Terra, which on the hierarchy is about level with the Inquisition and the Church.
The "Adeptus Terra" is the government of the IOM. The "Church" has no political power but through the High Lords via its representative. The fact the "Church" formally isn't included in the Governmental structure, save for its representative in the high Lords, would be a point to me.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The first because it follows its own rules, the second most likely because it counts countless departments.
As do the space marines, the priesthood of Mars, etc. The IOM is a fairly loosely held together organization.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The caveat that deals with the Adeptus Sororitas even gives the Cult a theoretical access to half of the human population (minus the too young, the aged and the cripple).
Okay? How does that distract from the point the IOM has put obstacles in the way of the "Church" and if said "Church" became too militant for the High Lords' liking they might very well reconsider that "caveat"? Simply put the "Church" has power but is not THE power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The AS has its own fleets. It can even obtain its own seat in the Council at times.
So? I don't deny the "Church" or the Soroitas don't have power or influence. Merely that they are not the sole power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Not really; Vandire didn't defeat/"boss" the Ecclesiarchy, he literally took control of it, notably by kicking the Ecclesiarch out on charges of heresy: therefore a purely religious charge.
I believe I was referring to the little spat to kill Vandire after he assumed total power. He was, by that point, the "Church" and various representatives of the IOM forces waged war on him.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That is a direct acknowledgement of the power of the religious cult and is tantamount to its necessity and power, and that it's really meant to stay. Even S. Thor, the saviour and liberator, became the new Ecclesiarch.
That's splitting hairs. Thor was a priest, likely, who lead a "reformation" such as it was. The Space marines and , IIRC, priesthood of Mars on the other hand had less ethereal concerns against Vandire and opposed him. Which means one arm of the IOM said the "Church" was wrong and went to blows. Something you claimed couldn't happen.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:In "current" 40K, it has grown to the point of championing a need for a faith, and this faith is directly used to fuel spells which are the only tools known to defeat the most powerful Daemons.
Again I think we are talking at cross purposes. I have made arguments concerning Theocracy. Not about faith or religion in and of itself. But on the matter at hand it is an open question on if faith in the Big E is a "magic feather" or not. And considering what happened to Magnus for messing with warp magic I'm not sure spells are a good way to go. One wonders how far rigorous application of the scientific method and observance would go to understanding the ultra-dimensional non-corporeals which inhabited the Warp.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:No. You continually try to redefine the GEoM through his past nature while it is irrelevant, because the cult has made him a real god. As I repeatedly said now, there is no point using the outdated rules to analyze the current system.
I am trying to express a distinction and point I feel your are missing.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now he is messiah, saviour and god; it is under this current nature that one has to look at his words.
The longer you refuse to do that, the worse you understanding of the theocratic nature of the Imperium will be, and there is no point continuing, as it is totally irrelevant.
Yes now they believe he is god. And they try and follow his teachings and his words in their daily life, which may not be an iota different than when he was alive I might add, just as we all do. It doesn't matter if they think their founding principals came from the Big E, the Easter Bunny or anything else anymore than it matters that chunks of the US law code come from "religious teachings".
If the laws were enforced via divine authority I would concede the point but from all I can gather and know the big book of law is enforced as any other law even if not derived from the Big E. Brutal and bloody because the IOM is a hell hole but still a civil code.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You have not demonstrated that they had a normal life, nor that they were not in a state of decadence.
You have merely provided an example where a society had access to high technology (which is all relative, Chaos taint doesn't prevent from having several km large structures floating above the ground for all we know).
I have demonstrated they had a functioning society, one which had presumably existed for some previous time before the IOM showed up and likely would have continued to exist had they not exterminated by same. Frankly that is more than you have provided to support your case.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Were the Laer even linked to the warp as much as humans are?
In the absence of evidence it’s best not to assume either way.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Are we supposed to accept a whole pro-Chaos slant on the basis of some heavily extrapolated opinion about some marginally known group of aliens, non humanoid at that!? Preposterous!
You may accept or not accept whatever you wish. As for our debate I have presented evidence to support my position. You have presented nothing to support yours.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's remember the Eldars, for whom everything was fine and well in their lusty world until the day their gratuitous semen rains glued together a Chaos god.
The Eldar were far from “fine”, their entire society was enthralled to decadence and excess which led to the birth of a chaos god. And it should be noted they didn’t worship Chaos particularly, they were simply into hedonism so the failure of the Eldar is the failure of the Eldar not any one else’s.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I think basing our opinion on actual human societies afflicted by the Chaost plague has more merits.
If you have evidence to counter my position please present it. Otherwise I don't see the need to dig any deeper.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And yes, strangely enough, you have not brought evidence that a complacent happy populace could defend itself against Chaos monstrosities.
I have argued a content, happy society is less likely to risk it all making pacts with dark devils. Do you disagree? Is a wretch on some forgeworld, forgotten and discarded by the IOM, toiling in darkness and grime supposed to be less likely to say “frack you” to the world which shunned him? Certainly some vigilance is required through I prefer to encourage open worship and nip problems in their embryonic stage rather then let them fester in the darkness until they reach dangerous thresholds.
Or are you referring to defeating the various monstrosities which emerge from the Warp? Which would be dealt with by military forces not merely “complacent happy populace”?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Commissars aren't the leaders.
They are political officers. They definitely posses an unofficial leadership role, if they believe a commander is being too light hearted in his defense of the IOM they will "correct" matters.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Nor are the inquisition agents, who we've seen discuss about application of death through massive firepower and have to obtain sort of decrees to do so.
Inquisitors are practically a state within itself. They are answerable to virtually no one and if you have an example of them needing a decree in order to do something, as opposed merely asking the ship commander if he'd consent to bombard the desired area, I would like to see it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Reason isn't out of the loop when they take a decision, and decisions on Exterminatii aren't taken lightly.
In your opinion. The fact remains an Inquisitor has the absolute authority to issue an Exterminus and the only people who could, officially, call him on it would be another inquisitor. I consider that a tad bit dodgy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:A for the incompetence of governors, aren't we getting into a faulty generality here? If it were true, the Imperium would have been dead ages ago, as there's no way it could survive if all planets, the majority of them under the rule of governors, were not managed with a minimal amount of efficient anyway, even if by total dicks.
Firstly:
For the Emperor page 97 wrote:...The majority of planetary governorships are hereditary positions, and many incumbents aren't up to the challenge of the job.
Now it goes on to mention the really incompetent get weeded out by various coups and the like but that is hardly a shining example of efficient and smoothly operating governance.
Secondly being in a state of decay, corruption and collapse is pretty much the IOM’s motif. It is not supposed to be a functional state but rather a backwards, hobbled one.
Thirdly the IOM is a fictional organization. It exists because it sells goods for Games Workshops so it can be as incompetent as it wants and still continue. Indeed your argument is similar to the argument that the IOM must be good at war because otherwise they'd have been routed long ago, it just doesn't hold water.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Worse, it still works and has shaped its ruling body's motto as to fit with the harsh realities.
The former is debatable. They waste time, effort and resources.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Everything that is against the Imperium has been raised to some ridiculously radical magnitude. You cannot fight that, especially over such a large territory, without sacrificing on certain things.
Well I generally think increased initiative from the lower berths and healthy dosages of federalism are the best tonic. Combined with bedrock principals of course.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You cannot reform society, have pompous political debates and bring in Human Rights (which are not a panacea btw) in such a state of despair and creep.
Well brutal authoritarian policies are also not a panacea. The IOM is still besieged by horrors and traitors. I merely advocate the path which requires me to expend the least amount of time and energy shooting my own people. Dead citizens don't work. Ostracized and angered citizens whom conspire against me are not productively adding to society.
Edit: Also I'm not sure I've advocated "pompous political debate" or even mandated that the society must be a democratic Republic, through I obviously am biased towards that governorship. Indeed a kingship, with constitutional restraint and protection towards its citizens, could suffice. There simply must be some avenue which the people can feel their grievances can be aired, that they a stake and voice in the great machine rather than merely being cogs.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You're forced into a war where millions will die by the truckloads and you don't even have time to organize yourself, even less to reform the whole society from the ground.
If I am to ask millions to lay down their lives it behooves me to make them feel they are investing in something worth such sacrifice. As for time, in such crisis I would argue it is paramount I choose the most efficient, most cost productive options rather than keeping it "dumb and simple".
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Millennia ago? yes. Not now. Too late, mate
Actually its funny you put such emphasis on time. The IOM is a very lethargic beast:
Imperial Guard codex page 7 wrote:A plea for military aid may come to the ears of the Imperium, but not be acted upon for months, years or even decades. Such requests typically make their way through countless adepts before finally reaching the hands of who can sanction suitable action, sitting at a dimly lit pulpit-station many hundreds of light years away
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Absurd.
When Chaos offers only senseless gore, rivers of puss, mazes of mental twist, sick appendages and pain, there's clearly something wrong in humans who want to get there instead of wanting to remain as close as possible to the perfection incarnated by the Holy God Emperor. ;)
Well much as I favor the human form I do believe that avoids my point. That both the IOM and Chaos have no interest in me but for how I can serve their goals. Therefore why should I have any particular loyalty to the IOM?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:He just happened to have a link to the Warp stronger than any human's, and thus being in the best position to know what awaited humanity outside.
Considering, due to his actions, humanity was made ill prepared to handle the concept of chaos and therefore vulnerable, that he, or representatives carrying out his policy, squandered and destroyed peaceful Xeno and human cultures such as the Interex who could have been an benefit and whose metahuman “sons” formed the lynchpin of the whole heresy I really don’t see this “best position” you speak of.
Not to mention that is a rather flippant dismissal of a fairly unsavory character.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yeah, so I must take the word of some suicidal Chaos adept now. :P
ROFL
If you mean me I am neither suicidal or particularly fond of Chaos. I consider them a rank evil on par with the Big E.
But to the point there is little to no evidence what awaits the "souls" of good little imperials. Belief that the Big E will save you is, at the end of the day, just that. A faith rather than any scientifically derived fact. You are certainly entitled to believe in it but I am not mandated to find that a logical argument.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You can live well, very well, in a dictatorship, as long as you're on the right side.
The criteria this time are quite generous, because you have to be a human and fight for mankind
Actually much more stringent than that. You could be enslaved to work at a bureaucracy or factory. Be drafted to die in some god forsaken war a thousand light years from home or struggle for survival in the slums of some city planet. Being human, even of hundred percent pure stock, is far from enough to assure you live "well, very well".
And if you find yourself on the wrong side of the divide…things don’t look up.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:No. I'm saying there are trade offs, nothing is perfect, but the IoM doesn't have the luxury to rearrange itself.
And I'm saying the IOM shouldn't have been built as it was in the first place, that it is poorly equipped to handle the problems it has to face.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Would it attempt anything, it would crumble.
That would only reinforce Chaos and make things harder for the humanity that didn't go down the drain.
It’s already going down the drain, merely in slow motion. Better to act and save what we can than have everyone die.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The cabal's projections fail on both sides. Nothing says that their projections were correct or the only ones.
Unless you have evidence their basic assumption was flawed it stands, and that is all there is to it. Simply put humans being humans, giving off all our unchecked emotions, are what the dark gods need. Worship and individual souls are just gravy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Humanity proved to be a little nuisance when it was small and isolated on Terra. It also proved to be good and powerful as united under the GEOM.
I would argue the IOM is not “good and powerful” against Chaos. Indeed in many ways it acts as the greatest monument/offering to Nurgle{Decay/defiance}, Korne{Bloodlust/Warfare} and tzeentch{Change/Hope}. Likely even Slannessh with the decadence of the “royal families”.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Most seriously, the best way such a thing could happen would be through the use of a poison doubled with some euphoric and sleeping drug, spread across entire worlds, especially the worst ones.
People would either die by millions or billions or become sterile, although the former would be better.
It's already a dramatic and harsh "solution" here, but the best to do is avoid resent, pain and sadness.
Remnant humanity would regroup and coalesce into better combat units over simpler territorial zones.
Okay...I would consider that a rather alarming waste of resources. Not only in developing poisons to use against my own population , the material lost and left behind as you regressed from worlds but the sheer sacrifice of manpower which is the most important asset we can leverage.
Not to mention nothing breaks trust between people and government like trying to kill them.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:So yes, hello to our grimdark setting, there is nothing you can do about it.
Again I feel like the argument has shifted. Previously we were talking about how, if demons erupted into existence, the IOM was the only logical outcome. Now you shifted it to the IOM after its been burying itself for ten thousand years which I feel isn't a small departure.
Still the basic situation isn't that bad. Cleaning house and enacting reforms from both top down and bottom up, ditch the quasi-religious dogma, initiate inroads to streamline and improve the Guard, you could make some head way. You just gotta have faith. ;)