An Assay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being needed

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Lucky
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An Assay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being needed

Post by Lucky » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:17 am

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Actually has something consistent to say about Utilitarianism

40K, especially the Imperium of Man, is a fascinating universe in part because it accomplishes something that can only be done when you play some of these tropes perfectly straight. It constructs an Alternate Universe where fascist policies are not just justified, but absolutely required for mere survival. As someone else put it, "if you let me put my thumb on the utilitarian scales, I can get you to agree that you have an affirmative moral duty to torture a three-year-old child to death." Indeed.

Consider the humans' position against the 14 characteristics of fascism. Nearly all are justified, because the 40K universe is so damned dangerous. When High Chancellor Sutler says "I want this country to realize that we stand on the edge of oblivion", when Ernst Röhm says that "the people desire wholesome dread", when fundamentalists invoke the phrase "With Us or Against Us", this is the imaginary universe they live in.


• • Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: It's not like you can emigrate anywhere. (Well, maybe the Tau Empire.)
◦ Or The Eye of Terror....

• • Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: They have an Inquisition, and it's actually necessary to prevent chaos demons from appearing everywhere.

• • Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: It's pretty easy when the scapegoats are constantly spitting acid on the front door.

• • Supremacy of the Military: War is everywhere, and failure means the deaths of billions. The military is all that stands between humanity and chaotic oblivion. However, unlike with the 14 characteristics, the military is not precisely glorified. With a few exceptions, Imperial Guardsmen are taught that the military is, like everything else in the Imperium, a tool of survival. Unlike most fascist regimes, in which the military is a means to righteous victory over the Supreme Leader's many and sundry enemies, victory is not spoken of in the Imperium, only survival. Because victory is widely perceived to be (and actually is) impossible, a perception common among rank-and-file Guardsmen themselves, any potential glamour or glory the military might have is ground down by the reality of constant war. Contrast with facist imagery of long struggles but quick and victorious wars over the weak and spineless enemy. Even the grandiose religious and authoritarian imagery woven into the Imperial Guard's equipment (battleships built like cathedrals, tanks built like castles) has a practical purpose: to keep both the Guardsmen and the populations they 'defend' in awe of the might of the Imperium, reducing the likelihood of revolt or mutiny.

• • Controlled Mass Media: "Knowledge is power; guard it well." It's nigh-impossible to know what's really happening in the Imperium, since the bureaucracy hides it. The reasons for doing this range from simply keeping the masses loyal and productive (if there is, say, a genestealer cult on the planet, the populace doesn't need to know; if they're panicking in the streets they aren't growing crops or building weapons for the Imperium), to protection against the fact that in this universe, knowledge can LITERALLY be power. Power that can make you pants-crappingly insane or summon The Legions of Hell. Which leads to our next point...

• • Obsession with National Security: The whole universe is a thin sheen of normality built atop a gigantic Negative Space Wedgie; the obsession with defense and warfare is crucial to the survival of humanity. On a more local scale, constant vigilance against heretic, xeno, mutant, and witch (psyker). Any one of these groups can destroy an entire planet with relative ease and can show up at any time. For example: a Chaos fleet shows up above a random planet, the uncertain nature of FTL travel having thrown them thousands of light years off course. A heretics summon demons. Eldar glass your cities on the off chance it'll save a handful of their people. Psyker's brain explodes in crowded work camp, kills hundreds, attracts notice of Tzeentch. The Imperium's sole defense against such threats is an obsession with security.

• • Religion and Government are Intertwined: The Empire of Man is a straight-up theocracy, because not only is worship of the Emperor justified, it's required for the Astronomican (A huge psychic beacon that guides faster-than-light travel all over the galaxy) to work.

• • Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Think you're the smartest guy in the room? You're channeling Tzeentch. If your art becomes too degenerate, say hi to Slaanesh when he shows up. Of course, if you ask too many questions in the first place, the Inquisition will just get to you first.

• • Obsession with Crime and Punishment: When your crimes can summon demons and destroy worlds, the state is justified in being interested in them... and these crimes may not directly involve the accused harming anyone.

• • Protection of Corporate Power: Due to the unimaginably vast nature of the Imperium, it is incredibly decentralized. Vast corporations, many of which span whole star clusters, can be enormously powerful, and the central government places no restrictions at all upon their behavior. While the individual planetary governments could, in theory, regulate corporations, the sheer size of many corporations makes any kind of practical control unlikely, as the resources of such corporations easily dwarf those of most individual worlds (with the exception of Hive and Forge worlds, most Imperial planets hover developmentally between about AD ~1000-2000). As mentioned, the sheer vastness of the Empire makes such laissez-faire policies almost required.

In other words: In the grim darkness of the far future, War is Peace.
I feel the author is exaggerating the threats in the War hammer 40,000 setting.

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by sonofccn » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:03 pm

Lucky wrote:I feel the author is exaggerating the threats in the War hammer 40,000 setting.
Well first off the 14 points of fascism is a load of {Censored} with the intellectual rigor of noting that because most serial killers are men being male is a sign of a serial killer. So anything derived from it is going to be questionable at best.

That said yes there is a reasonably vocal, through indeterminate size, of the fan base who justify the crapsack world of the IOM. That without the unifying and crushing weight of the Imperium to give focus and direction to the masses mankind would splinter apart and be consumed, perhaps literally, by the savage alien hordes which surround it. Such argument are at least partly tongue in cheek of course, typically delivered under the guise of an Imperium citizen or Space Marine, but for the moment let us treat it as a serious argument for totalitarianism.

There are dangers in the 40K universe. Completely valid and real from Xenos, mutants and forces of Chaos. And they should be dealt with in an adult, no nonsense manner. Some aliens must be destroyed, psykers require some training in order not to be a danger to themselves and others, and direct worship of Chaos gods should be forbidden. That said the Imperium does none of this. Its brutal and certainly willing to do "what it takes" but is childish in its goals and mannerisms. It cloaks its thinking in superstition and operates on the lowest common denominator in terms of its subjects. Bathing both them and its appointed agents in myth and ignorance leaving them ill equipped to handle the problems they face. So far from being an example of needed totalitarianism I'd argue the Imperium is an example of how one doesn't work, which would in part be the point but I digress, of its many and myriad pitfalls and failures.

Even assuming the Imperium wasn't grossly incompetent through there is the question of which is the most beneficial and efficient in the long term: Essentially enslaving someone to work a twelve hour shift for the rest of his natural life via the divine right of "god” or employing that same person with if not respect a modicum of consideration to make the arrangement beneficial to both parties? Which one would be more likely to attend a meeting of a new sect or lodge he'd never heard of, which would be more likely to gamble what he has for the promise of a better future? Which one would put more care that he's manufacturing the lasguns correctly, which one would have more incentive to increase his quota? Leaving morality to the wayside for the moment the best prison bars are ones you can't see which the Imperium fails miserably at.

Then there is also the argument that since people can be "corrupted", via Chaos or Genestealers, it may not be in the best interests of humanity to concentrate power so tightly in these completely fallible human beings. Not to mention even without the above planetary governors and the like have a tendency to become indulgent and "power drunk" rather than a keenly disciplined and observant guardians.

Lastly, returning to morality if only briefly, one has to ask if mere survival and only survival is an ends to itself. While I can completely understand the need of hardship and sacrifice if that is the full and only extent, if Mankind fate is to be lifeless cogs in the rustic machinery for all eternity what is the point? If there is no endpoint, no victory where if not you then your children or their children-children can truly live, then is the human race truly alive?

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Re: An Assay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:56 pm

Lucky wrote:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Actually has something consistent to say about Utilitarianism

40K, especially the Imperium of Man, is a fascinating universe in part because it accomplishes something that can only be done when you play some of these tropes perfectly straight. It constructs an Alternate Universe where fascist policies are not just justified, but absolutely required for mere survival. As someone else put it, "if you let me put my thumb on the utilitarian scales, I can get you to agree that you have an affirmative moral duty to torture a three-year-old child to death." Indeed.

Consider the humans' position against the 14 characteristics of fascism. Nearly all are justified, because the 40K universe is so damned dangerous. When High Chancellor Sutler says "I want this country to realize that we stand on the edge of oblivion", when Ernst Röhm says that "the people desire wholesome dread", when fundamentalists invoke the phrase "With Us or Against Us", this is the imaginary universe they live in.


• • Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: It's not like you can emigrate anywhere. (Well, maybe the Tau Empire.)
◦ Or The Eye of Terror....

• • Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: They have an Inquisition, and it's actually necessary to prevent chaos demons from appearing everywhere.

• • Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: It's pretty easy when the scapegoats are constantly spitting acid on the front door.

• • Supremacy of the Military: War is everywhere, and failure means the deaths of billions. The military is all that stands between humanity and chaotic oblivion. However, unlike with the 14 characteristics, the military is not precisely glorified. With a few exceptions, Imperial Guardsmen are taught that the military is, like everything else in the Imperium, a tool of survival. Unlike most fascist regimes, in which the military is a means to righteous victory over the Supreme Leader's many and sundry enemies, victory is not spoken of in the Imperium, only survival. Because victory is widely perceived to be (and actually is) impossible, a perception common among rank-and-file Guardsmen themselves, any potential glamour or glory the military might have is ground down by the reality of constant war. Contrast with facist imagery of long struggles but quick and victorious wars over the weak and spineless enemy. Even the grandiose religious and authoritarian imagery woven into the Imperial Guard's equipment (battleships built like cathedrals, tanks built like castles) has a practical purpose: to keep both the Guardsmen and the populations they 'defend' in awe of the might of the Imperium, reducing the likelihood of revolt or mutiny.

• • Controlled Mass Media: "Knowledge is power; guard it well." It's nigh-impossible to know what's really happening in the Imperium, since the bureaucracy hides it. The reasons for doing this range from simply keeping the masses loyal and productive (if there is, say, a genestealer cult on the planet, the populace doesn't need to know; if they're panicking in the streets they aren't growing crops or building weapons for the Imperium), to protection against the fact that in this universe, knowledge can LITERALLY be power. Power that can make you pants-crappingly insane or summon The Legions of Hell. Which leads to our next point...

• • Obsession with National Security: The whole universe is a thin sheen of normality built atop a gigantic Negative Space Wedgie; the obsession with defense and warfare is crucial to the survival of humanity. On a more local scale, constant vigilance against heretic, xeno, mutant, and witch (psyker). Any one of these groups can destroy an entire planet with relative ease and can show up at any time. For example: a Chaos fleet shows up above a random planet, the uncertain nature of FTL travel having thrown them thousands of light years off course. A heretics summon demons. Eldar glass your cities on the off chance it'll save a handful of their people. Psyker's brain explodes in crowded work camp, kills hundreds, attracts notice of Tzeentch. The Imperium's sole defense against such threats is an obsession with security.

• • Religion and Government are Intertwined: The Empire of Man is a straight-up theocracy, because not only is worship of the Emperor justified, it's required for the Astronomican (A huge psychic beacon that guides faster-than-light travel all over the galaxy) to work.

• • Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Think you're the smartest guy in the room? You're channeling Tzeentch. If your art becomes too degenerate, say hi to Slaanesh when he shows up. Of course, if you ask too many questions in the first place, the Inquisition will just get to you first.

• • Obsession with Crime and Punishment: When your crimes can summon demons and destroy worlds, the state is justified in being interested in them... and these crimes may not directly involve the accused harming anyone.

• • Protection of Corporate Power: Due to the unimaginably vast nature of the Imperium, it is incredibly decentralized. Vast corporations, many of which span whole star clusters, can be enormously powerful, and the central government places no restrictions at all upon their behavior. While the individual planetary governments could, in theory, regulate corporations, the sheer size of many corporations makes any kind of practical control unlikely, as the resources of such corporations easily dwarf those of most individual worlds (with the exception of Hive and Forge worlds, most Imperial planets hover developmentally between about AD ~1000-2000). As mentioned, the sheer vastness of the Empire makes such laissez-faire policies almost required.

In other words: In the grim darkness of the far future, War is Peace.
I feel the author is exaggerating the threats in the War hammer 40,000 setting.
Hell no, and what is summarized is precisely why over the next couple years, I really kind dug into the whole Imperium mystique. I'm never going to bother with, nor play any single 40K game, but I'm really liking the whole fictional structure that's behind the Imperium.
It seems silly and yet in the universe that's painted, it's totally logical. More.
It's absolutely needed. There's a fuck ton of irony and borrowing on humanity's historical falls engraved into the bone of the Imperium. It is the epitome of the religious movement it clearly uses as its source. Death is at the core of it. It is basically the whole history of the Holy Roman Empire and any other colonies created in its wake, all thrown into space, with a flavour of ugly aliens. Think of the plagues! Think of the hundred of millions of people who died for real! In face of the absurdity of it, someone has to make fun of it!
It could literally be a twisted catharsis, and minus the coolness, you have to realize that if tomorrow Earth was thrown into oblivion, facing hordes of hideous demons and other monstrosities, all of Earth would be forcefully united into a theocratic political power.
The best part of it is that any source, book or else that would directly mention the God Emperor of Humanity as a real being, and talk of his miracles, could be considered, by the rules of 40K canon, to be nothing more than theological propaganda, parts of a giant corpus of canonical and apocryphal texts.
After all, for the random human on planet X415, what is the proof that the GEoM ever existed or that such a being even is entombed on some Golden Throne?
Such a level of propaganda and mystical blindness is rather easy to assemble today. And the most amusing side of this is that humanity has suffered of it, and brought upon itself its own demons. The IoM believes in itself, it's decrepit, and certainly NOT too big to fail.
In fact, only a Deus Ex Machina can save it. The biggest miracle ever. Fortunately, Imperium denizens can believe in such an event because many of them can actually observe the very occurrence of miracles or anti-miracles. In universe, our rather relative lack of evidence is explained by Earth being lucky to have been isolated for a long time.
Would tomorrow, all reality break loose, you'd never see anything like a neat and clean UFP given birth. Nope, you'd probably see some theocratic power centered on Washington, somewhere in Europe or in Jerusalem. You can be sure that if demons start knocking on your door, you'll pretty much beg mercy to any super saviour who'd actually prove he can do something about your new annoying neighbours.

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Re: An Assay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by mojo » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:15 am

that is a nice ASSAY.

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by sonofccn » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:28 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It could literally be a twisted catharsis, and minus the coolness, you have to realize that if tomorrow Earth was thrown into oblivion, facing hordes of hideous demons and other monstrosities, all of Earth would be forcefully united into a theocratic political power.
Well leaving asid our obvious disagreement on the nature of humanity I do feel I should point out that, strictly speaking, the IOM isn't a theocracy. Or at least no more than the various dark age Europe fiefdoms its modeled after. The Ecclesiarch is distinct, if closely connected, from the ruling body of the IOM the High Lords of Terra. They get a seat but the "church" doesn't have unmitigated power at the "federal" level. The various shrine worlds and such which form part of the IOM would be theocracies obviously.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You can be sure that if demons start knocking on your door, you'll pretty much beg mercy to any super saviour who'd actually prove he can do something about your new annoying neighbours.
Or i might start begging the demons to come save me from the annoying savior who thinks he has the right to dictate by force how I live my life. Chaos is a lot of very nasty things but at least it gives the illusion of freedom. ;)

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:10 pm

sonofccn wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It could literally be a twisted catharsis, and minus the coolness, you have to realize that if tomorrow Earth was thrown into oblivion, facing hordes of hideous demons and other monstrosities, all of Earth would be forcefully united into a theocratic political power.
Well leaving asid our obvious disagreement on the nature of humanity I do feel I should point out that, strictly speaking, the IOM isn't a theocracy. Or at least no more than the various dark age Europe fiefdoms its modeled after. The Ecclesiarch is distinct, if closely connected, from the ruling body of the IOM the High Lords of Terra. They get a seat but the "church" doesn't have unmitigated power at the "federal" level. The various shrine worlds and such which form part of the IOM would be theocracies obviously.
There are shades of secularism in the IoM, but they really all fall under the theocracy principle.
As per wikipedia:

"Theocracy is a form of government in which a deity is officially recognized as the civil Ruler and official policy is governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."

No need to beat around the bush here.
All twelve High Lords rule in the God Emperor's name, whose nature is clearly divine.
The vast majority of kingdoms and empires in old Europe hinged around the authority of a central figure, at the very least blessed, if not simply claimed to be more or less related to sacred powers or gods themselves.
Placing a nation under the rule of a clergy is just a step further, merely like putting a sign at the entrance which says "this place is a theocracy and we absolutely mean it."
Under which the enforcement of rules and ethics dictated by religious law will be more fierce, but the IoM hardly is detached from anything related to the bond between mankind and its Emperor, or the ways to manage your soul on a daily basis.
The Lex Imperialis, applied throughout the Imperium, is considered word of God, literally, without any intermediary prophet whatsoever.
High Lords could be considered popes, each dedicated to a ministry which is either related to spiritual matters or more material concerns. They all assume to apply the will of the God Emperor.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You can be sure that if demons start knocking on your door, you'll pretty much beg mercy to any super saviour who'd actually prove he can do something about your new annoying neighbours.
Or i might start begging the demons to come save me from the annoying savior who thinks he has the right to dictate by force how I live my life. Chaos is a lot of very nasty things but at least it gives the illusion of freedom. ;)
Well that's just plain rubbish because these demons don't care about how you live, but about how you die, preferably in their clutches while they feed on your soul. ;)
And if you ask what's the point of living, remember that in 40K this question is quite easily solved because death is certainly not any safer than life. Quite the contrary!
All the more reasons to be a zealot while you still have a beating heart.

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by sonofccn » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:27 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:There are shades of secularism in the IoM, but they really all fall under the theocracy principle.
As per wikipedia:

"Theocracy is a form of government in which a deity is officially recognized as the civil Ruler and official policy is governed by officials regarded as divinely guided, or is pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religion or religious group."
Mr. Oragahn wrote:All twelve High Lords rule in the God Emperor's name, whose nature is clearly divine.
I won't deny the Imperium blends Religion and the State but so did Imperial Cult of Rome or the divinity of the Ancient Pharaohs and neither are typically considered theocracies as far as I know. Ultimately civil authority and religious authority were, officially, divided. Strictly speaking the Ecclesiarch, under the authority of the Ecclesiarchy, couldn't order the lowliest guardsman. Indeed by Imperial decree the church can't maintain "Men under arms", hence the sisters of battle, through obviously in actual practice things become far more murky.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The vast majority of kingdoms and empires in old Europe hinged around the authority of a central figure, at the very least blessed, if not simply claimed to be more or less related to sacred powers or gods themselves.
I wouldn't disagree but those are not theocracies as is typically defined.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Lex Imperialis, applied throughout the Imperium, is considered word of God, literally, without any intermediary prophet whatsoever.
He very well might have written it. Now his followers may follow it with a fanatic zeal but that doesn't mandate they are a theocracy, unless every cult of personality is to be redifined as a religion.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Well that's just plain rubbish because these demons don't care about how you live, but about how you die,
Exactly like the Imperium. ;)

Chaos at least gives me a chance to move up the totem pole. So to snap this back it is in the alleged savior's best interest not to be to big of an arse. An environ with clearly established limits and avenue's of recourse so I and others feel like we're getting a "fair shake" would go a long way in cutting down the "demons" recruitment.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And if you ask what's the point of living, remember that in 40K this question is quite easily solved because death is certainly not any safer than life. Quite the contrary!
I think you misunderstood my question. I'm not talking about living singular I'm talking about living read the human race. If we are not sacrificing for something but sacrificing so that we can sacrifice some more later, if there is no true harvest or respite, why should the human race continue. What advantage is gained by such action?

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:15 pm

sonofccn wrote: I won't deny the Imperium blends Religion and the State but so did Imperial Cult of Rome or the divinity of the Ancient Pharaohs and neither are typically considered theocracies as far as I know.
What's the difference? That one dude or a group claims that they apply the divine words?
It is exactly what the Imperium High Lords do. Their power is officially applied on behalf of the God Emperor and their law is his very words.
It is similar to the Islamic Republic of Iran, minus the democracy.
By definition the state is really ruled by god(s) or anyone who is their his/heir in privileges and power.
Encyclopedia Britannica: Theocracy wrote: theocracy, government by divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. In many theocracies, government leaders are members of the clergy, and the state’s legal system is based on religious law. Theocratic rule was typical of early civilizations. The Enlightenment marked the end of theocracy in most Western countries. Contemporary examples of theocracies include Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the Vatican. See also church and state; sacred kingship.
Ultimately civil authority and religious authority were, officially, divided.
Theocracies allow that as long as the civil code is clearly inspired by religious tenets (there they have the Lex Imperialis, with the Adeptus Arbitest qualified and devoted to its strict application with failure) and/or that the leaders are divinely guided.
Strictly speaking the Ecclesiarch, under the authority of the Ecclesiarchy, couldn't order the lowliest guardsman. Indeed by Imperial decree the church can't maintain "Men under arms", hence the sisters of battle, through obviously in actual practice things become far more murky.
This has to be greatly mitigated, but we'll see that later.
Let's focus on this: the appropriate top leader is, like other High Lords, acting on the GE's name and applies his word, so ultimately all the chain of command is subordinated to divine law. They have their Tables and follow them; then, that some of the Lords are strictly priests and other part warrior, part "patrician", or technician, doesn't change much.
It just makes the IoM's structure perhaps unique, especially in that most of our examples are ante-industrial.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The vast majority of kingdoms and empires in old Europe hinged around the authority of a central figure, at the very least blessed, if not simply claimed to be more or less related to sacred powers or gods themselves.
I wouldn't disagree but those are not theocracies as is typically defined.
Frankly, pick any definition right now on internet, be it coming from an encyclopedia, a dictionary or a law book, and you'll see that the IoM really is a theocracy.
It is just one wherein among the dozen "popes", there is one whose duty is to maintain the cult; essentially, the Catholic dogma on steroids, with the GEoM a warrior-Jesus, universal, immortal and omnipotent.
The cult contains rules as well, which we could say are an extra flavour around the Book of Judgement. If the Ecclesiarchy can't give orders to units outside of its jurisdiction, it can certainly put obstacles and prevent events solely based on the respect of the Imperial Cult, since the whole of the IoM must officially conform to it, even the lowliest soldier.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Lex Imperialis, applied throughout the Imperium, is considered word of God, literally, without any intermediary prophet whatsoever.
He very well might have written it. Now his followers may follow it with a fanatic zeal but that doesn't mandate they are a theocracy, unless every cult of personality is to be redifined as a religion.
A cult of personality doesn't need to be related to sacred matters, and what the High Lords enforce is not a mere cult of personality (which ironically pretty much is what the Ecclesiarchy grew into, aside from the fact that their subject of adoration is supremely divine).
For all intents and purposes, the High Lords are to be considered popes with different functions.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Well that's just plain rubbish because these demons don't care about how you live, but about how you die,
Exactly like the Imperium. ;)
Sure, if in bad faith, you exclude that the demons want to kill you and destroy you, or pervert you to the point you're a stinking putrescent mass of goo or completely twisted beyond any humanly sane measure.
At least under the Imperium there still are worlds, even green at times, where humans can relatively behave like humans. There is not such a thing with Chaos.
Chaos at least gives me a chance to move up the totem pole.
And all that ambition, for what price? You lose much more in the end. You're just a tool to Chaos. You can easily end your existence as a human turning into the hideous thing which will destroy or enslave your own world, or throw it into a dimension for an eternity of torment.
So to snap this back it is in the alleged savior's best interest not to be to big of an arse. An environ with clearly established limits and avenue's of recourse so I and others feel like we're getting a "fair shake" would go a long way in cutting down the "demons" recruitment.
Let's just remember that the IoM is a caricature of what it was, decrepit. The GEoM wasn't such an arse.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And if you ask what's the point of living, remember that in 40K this question is quite easily solved because death is certainly not any safer than life. Quite the contrary!
I think you misunderstood my question. I'm not talking about living singular I'm talking about living read the human race. If we are not sacrificing for something but sacrificing so that we can sacrifice some more later, if there is no true harvest or respite, why should the human race continue. What advantage is gained by such action?
Because if you surrender, you're Chaos snack or that if you fail, the Eye of Terror extends into the galaxy sized Panopticon of Terror ?
Frankly, there's just that far liberalism can go in light of such grave and very real danger.

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by sonofccn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:21 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What's the difference?
Because I would say it renders the word without meaning. By your logic the entire history of man was a series of theocracies. How then would one differentiate between the government of the Roman Empire and Iran, as one of the examples offered, and how fine a line do we draw?

US Presidents swear on the Bible to uphold their duty when they take office. Could that not be construed as swearing to God and by extension "borrowing" some of His divinity to justify their worthiness to "rule"? Or if a leader is a devote follower of a religion and proposes laws he believes are "inspired" by said religion would that be theocratic if they are dutifully passed?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's focus on this: the appropriate top leader is, like other High Lords, acting on the GE's name and applies his word, so ultimately all the chain of command is subordinated to divine law.
The high lords are endowed with the Big E's authority. Strictly speaking he's like a mortally wounded king who has viziers running the kingdom in his absence. And that is the guise in which his authority was carried out for roughly two thousand years before the Imperial Cult became the accepted religion. That he is also "god" is separate from the civil infrastructure he set up.

For a thought experiment try this: If, after he died, Washington had a religion formed around him and it become the dominate religion of the land would you argue the United States, having otherwise no alteration, was a theocracy because someone held up something Washington did or said?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Frankly, pick any definition right now on internet, be it coming from an encyclopedia, a dictionary or a law book, and you'll see that the IoM really is a theocracy.
1: government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided I do not believe the High Lords of Terra meet the criteria of "divine guidance", more so than any leader who may pray to god for guidance, far as I know they don't claim to be in communion with the Emperor or otherwise directed. Save by written edicts and precedents he made during his life which would be part of his being Emperor.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:If the Ecclesiarchy can't give orders to units outside of its jurisdiction, it can certainly put obstacles and prevent events solely based on the respect of the Imperial Cult, since the whole of the IoM must officially conform to it, even the lowliest soldier.
Officially? No. In practice its one of the big players struggling for power and dominance within the IOM. Or, depending on the circumstance and people involved, any branch of the IOM could "boss" the Ecclesiarchy around. The High Lords could even decide to denounce the Imperial faith and structurally speaking I don't think there is a single thing the "church" could do to stop it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Sure, if in bad faith, you exclude that the demons want to kill you and destroy you, or pervert you to the point you're a stinking putrescent mass of goo or completely twisted beyond any humanly sane measure.
At least under the Imperium there still are worlds, even green at times, where humans can relatively behave like humans. There is not such a thing with Chaos.
You can live on a nice "green" world under the thrall of chaos. Like the Laer, they were a highly technologically advanced society even though they had a major, if not total, worship of slaanesh. And conversely I can be worked to death in some lightless pit on a forge world or be "twisted beyond any humanly sane measure" by the Imperium. Servitors for instance.

But ultimately my point is if I become desperate I'll gamble on the whisperers from the darkness and the Imperium, its iconic image, is good for making people desperate. And you have gone on record that such brutality is required to survive in the hellscape that is 40K.

Conversely I contend that inherent favoritism, cronyism, fiat decree and excessive regulation do not lend themselves to social tranquility. A lack of tranquility leads to unrest which leads to violent outburst. And in a setting where any ticked off slagger can potentially serve as a gateway for soul devouring monsters I would argue maintaining tranquility is more important not less.

Now, as I said, there are real dangers that need to be, intelligently, combated. Psykers obviously can't be allowed just to walk around the city streets and I certainly don't have issue with abducting a Chaos cultist and putting him in a "CIA" happy room until he cracks like an egg. As for Orks I don't have qualms with Xenocide if possible, culling them from the surrounding area if not. But such things must be done in a pragmatic, level headed way rather than with blind zealotry.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And all that ambition, for what price? You lose much more in the end. You're just a tool to Chaos. You can easily end your existence as a human turning into the hideous thing which will destroy or enslave your own world, or throw it into a dimension for an eternity of torment.
I'm a tool either way. I might as well be a tool and get something out of it rather than live with a jack boot on my face.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's just remember that the IoM is a caricature of what it was, decrepit. The GEoM wasn't such an arse.
Actually the Big E was every bit as dogmatic as his later day servants are. To wit when he showed up you had a choice to join him or he'd crush and annex you. Anything he didn't like, such as religion, would be abolished. He was, in other words, a conquering warlord who believed he had a manifest destiny to "unite" mankind.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Because if you surrender, you're Chaos snack or that if you fail, the Eye of Terror extends into the galaxy sized Panopticon of Terror ?
Well I'm likely a chaos snack anyway and there is little point to care about the galaxy with humanity removed. But you are still avoiding the point. We all die, we all end up in the great immaterium/afterlife/void, the question is why do we go on. Why should I slave my life building tanks and bombs, building churches and houses, in essence propagating the great stream of life?

The Imperium is founded upon sacrifice for sacrifice sake. It endures but that is all, dying in slow motion, and odds are you, your children, their children and so on will work in the same complex, on the same assembly line at the same grueling work without pause, save for the unpaid half day to mark the Emperor's ascension, until you die. The question is “is that alone worth it”? Is survival for survival’s sake warrant enough?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Frankly, there's just that far liberalism can go in light of such grave and very real danger.
Please, I’m a Conservative. What I have advocated is that principals matter more when you’re alone in the dark not less.

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:28 pm

sonofccn wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:What's the difference?
Because I would say it renders the word without meaning. By your logic the entire history of man was a series of theocracies. How then would one differentiate between the government of the Roman Empire and Iran, as one of the examples offered, and how fine a line do we draw?
That is a poor reason to reject the facts. You could have a variety of democracies, flavours of republics, etc. They're not mutually exclusive.
Heck, the Vatican would pretty much be considered a theocracy where the ruler applies the word of god, and yet is elected by "grand electors" if you want.
Like it or not but the distinctive and more prevalent non-theocratic nature of the rule in so many nations these days is really a new thing.
The French Revolution and Marxism really did their thing.
US Presidents swear on the Bible to uphold their duty when they take office. Could that not be construed as swearing to God and by extension "borrowing" some of His divinity to justify their worthiness to "rule"?
It is more symbolism than anything meaningful one could say. The presence of the Bible is there to make the swearing meaningful to so many believers in the country, it is also a tradition, as the ruler shows that he is convinced that his duty is not without consequences outside of the physical world.
It is in fact an odd intrusion of what is generally kept into private life, thus making daily US life a secular affair. Laws and Constitution are fairly detached from any divine nature.
The appeal to god is generally purely convenient and the motto In God We Trust on the dollar bill has always been an odd thing really.
Or if a leader is a devote follower of a religion and proposes laws he believes are "inspired" by said religion would that be theocratic if they are dutifully passed?
You would definitely be establishing a theocracy, no doubt about that. What you speak of is almost a textbook rule in a religious kingdom, under a prophet king.
He could even push the story a bit further and claim to be a messiah. ;)
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's focus on this: the appropriate top leader is, like other High Lords, acting on the GE's name and applies his word, so ultimately all the chain of command is subordinated to divine law.
The high lords are endowed with the Big E's authority. Strictly speaking he's like a mortally wounded king who has viziers running the kingdom in his absence. And that is the guise in which his authority was carried out for roughly two thousand years before the Imperial Cult became the accepted religion. That he is also "god" is separate from the civil infrastructure he set up.
How it was given birth isn't relevant. We know that such a cult would have been repudiated by the God Emperor himself.
What it is now is a theocracy. High Lords apply the word of the God Emperor. In fact, the whole political dance about how they're put into place is quite totally irrelevant.
For a thought experiment try this: If, after he died, Washington had a religion formed around him and it become the dominate religion of the land would you argue the United States, having otherwise no alteration, was a theocracy because someone held up something Washington did or said?
Being a dominant religion isn't enough.
Now if Washington was elevated to godhood, or declared as having had special divine status, like an unique link with God, and got words from his Lord and gave such words to mankind to follow, and that some devout politician rose to power and made them The Law, you would have a theocracy.
Heck, some would say the elevation to postmortem elevation to a special supernatural rank is precisely what was made of Jesus, if you follow the constructivist path.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Frankly, pick any definition right now on internet, be it coming from an encyclopedia, a dictionary or a law book, and you'll see that the IoM really is a theocracy.
1: government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided I do not believe the High Lords of Terra meet the criteria of "divine guidance", more so than any leader who may pray to god for guidance, far as I know they don't claim to be in communion with the Emperor or otherwise directed. Save by written edicts and precedents he made during his life which would be part of his being Emperor.
They apply the Lex Imperialis, the word of the GEoM. The only way they could be more divinely guided would have them claim, the twelve of them, to be directly getting their orders from their grand mastah.
This would require some even greater leap of faith from the citizens of the IoM.
If Catholicism moved back to three popes, with one left managing the cult, and then had the second one of them specializing in the army branch and the last one in, say, telecommunications and propaganda, they wouldn't be less popes.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:If the Ecclesiarchy can't give orders to units outside of its jurisdiction, it can certainly put obstacles and prevent events solely based on the respect of the Imperial Cult, since the whole of the IoM must officially conform to it, even the lowliest soldier.
Officially? No.
Oh yes, they clearly have to, for the simple reason that any deviance is heresy.
It also goes without saying that the Ecclesiarchy is one of the greatest powers in the Council, if not the largest.
In practice its one of the big players struggling for power and dominance within the IOM. Or, depending on the circumstance and people involved, any branch of the IOM could "boss" the Ecclesiarchy around. The High Lords could even decide to denounce the Imperial faith and structurally speaking I don't think there is a single thing the "church" could do to stop it.
The whole system is actually built on the whole premise that this would not and should not happen.
It also goes without saying that denouncing Imperial Faith puts therefore an end to the Cult the Lex Imperialis, therefore cutting the High Lords from any divine legacy. That would move the IoM outside of a theocracy, unless of course another cult took the vacant place.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Sure, if in bad faith, you exclude that the demons want to kill you and destroy you, or pervert you to the point you're a stinking putrescent mass of goo or completely twisted beyond any humanly sane measure.
At least under the Imperium there still are worlds, even green at times, where humans can relatively behave like humans. There is not such a thing with Chaos.
You can live on a nice "green" world under the thrall of chaos. Like the Laer, they were a highly technologically advanced society even though they had a major, if not total, worship of slaanesh.
Please elaborate on the Laer and what is to be understood by "highly advanced".
Several pro-Chaos factions also use advanced technology.
In fact being anywhere highly advanced does not need to bode well for the civilization in question. The Dark Eldars, for all intents and purposes, are one of them, yet their life is more than precarious in many ways.
Heck, let's not even talk of the Necrons.
In fact it's a complete false dilemma to either be highly advanced or into Chaos worship, one I never made.
It is just that most Chaos controlled factions put more emphasis on magic than technology.
And conversely I can be worked to death in some lightless pit on a forge world or be "twisted beyond any humanly sane measure" by the Imperium. Servitors for instance.
Point taken. Now we both know that the IoM is far from being perfect. It's quite the contrary. But at least there's a chance to have a normal life. The alternatives just suck more.
But ultimately my point is if I become desperate I'll gamble on the whisperers from the darkness and the Imperium, its iconic image, is good for making people desperate. And you have gone on record that such brutality is required to survive in the hellscape that is 40K.
Conversely I contend that inherent favoritism, cronyism, fiat decree and excessive regulation do not lend themselves to social tranquility. A lack of tranquility leads to unrest which leads to violent outburst. And in a setting where any ticked off slagger can potentially serve as a gateway for soul devouring monsters I would argue maintaining tranquility is more important not less.
The potential grasp of Chaos is so ubiquitous that I don't see how tranquility would get you a free pass. In fact, you may just fall faster into hedonism or speculation, towards Slaanesh or Tzeentch.
Now, as I said, there are real dangers that need to be, intelligently, combated. Psykers obviously can't be allowed just to walk around the city streets and I certainly don't have issue with abducting a Chaos cultist and putting him in a "CIA" happy room until he cracks like an egg. As for Orks I don't have qualms with Xenocide if possible, culling them from the surrounding area if not. But such things must be done in a pragmatic, level headed way rather than with blind zealotry.
Isn't exactly what is done, in fact? With the zealotry just being the wrapping for the masses, the leaders being more pragmatic?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And all that ambition, for what price? You lose much more in the end. You're just a tool to Chaos. You can easily end your existence as a human turning into the hideous thing which will destroy or enslave your own world, or throw it into a dimension for an eternity of torment.
I'm a tool either way. I might as well be a tool and get something out of it rather than live with a jack boot on my face.
That just makes you a bigger client for Chaos, not a better human.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's just remember that the IoM is a caricature of what it was, decrepit. The GEoM wasn't such an arse.
Actually the Big E was every bit as dogmatic as his later day servants are. To wit when he showed up you had a choice to join him or he'd crush and annex you. Anything he didn't like, such as religion, would be abolished. He was, in other words, a conquering warlord who believed he had a manifest destiny to "unite" mankind.
This totally paints him in a rather nice light in comparison to the complete over the top cult that surrounds his personna by the 41th millennium.
The way Islamic empires grew is hardly any different.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Because if you surrender, you're Chaos snack or that if you fail, the Eye of Terror extends into the galaxy sized Panopticon of Terror ?
Well I'm likely a chaos snack anyway and there is little point to care about the galaxy with humanity removed. But you are still avoiding the point. We all die, we all end up in the great immaterium/afterlife/void, the question is why do we go on. Why should I slave my life building tanks and bombs, building churches and houses, in essence propagating the great stream of life?
I'm not evading the point. I've been going at it from the beginning. There's no point ending into the Warp, outside of the GEoM's protection, because outside of it, what was once calm is now Chaos, and the Immaterium is ruled by Chaos.
So you're registering for an eternity of twisted suffering. Killing humanity also means destroying whatever is left of the reign of the GEoM and his main source of protective power. In summary, a massive gamble which, by all looks of it, would easily end with the GEoM simply devoured as a weak soul by the major Chaos players.
Otherwise, you have to do your best to aim becoming one of the greatest demons of all Chaos, which should grant you one of the best places amongst Chaos minions. Of course, this actually means twisting, torturing, killing and devouring as many humans as comprehensible, and that is without counting the aim of throwing entire worlds into the gross distorsions of Chaos warped spacetime.
The Imperium is founded upon sacrifice for sacrifice sake.
All too similar to some of the most well known current mainstream religions. Yet, they still allow you to live a good life and enjoy fresh air and pure water, along walking wonderful landscapes.
As I said, the IoM is a caricature, a manly Catholicism on overdrive. But it doesn't preclude a good existence for a large portion of humanity.
It endures but that is all, dying in slow motion, and odds are you, your children, their children and so on will work in the same complex, on the same assembly line at the same grueling work without pause, save for the unpaid half day to mark the Emperor's ascension, until you die. The question is “is that alone worth it”? Is survival for survival’s sake warrant enough?
When your soul is priced, yes.
There is a simple demonstration to be made there.
A god like Slaanesh grew out of/provoked the the death of a large portion of trillions of Eldars, and all of these Chaos gods thrive on soul consumption in some manner.
The Imperium has counted billions upon billions of beings, if not trillions to put it simply, and this has gone on for millennia, all dying in the end.
If the souls of all these people were not protected somehow, but instead falling into the clutches of Chaos, Chaos would be faaaaar more powerful "now" that ever. Yet such is not the case, and anything looking like a victory to them has more to do with the IoM suffering from internal crippling than an absolute and real increase of power.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Frankly, there's just that far liberalism can go in light of such grave and very real danger.
Please, I’m a Conservative. What I have advocated is that principals matter more when you’re alone in the dark not less.
You are not alone, that is the point.
You feel totally isolated if you don't have faith in the GEoM.
Fuck, and I'm the relativist atheist here... lol.

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Re: An essay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by sonofccn » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:41 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That is a poor reason to reject the facts. You could have a variety of democracies, flavours of republics, etc. They're not mutually exclusive.
Heck, the Vatican would pretty much be considered a theocracy where the ruler applies the word of god, and yet is elected by "grand electors" if you want.
Like it or not but the distinctive and more prevalent non-theocratic nature of the rule in so many nations these days is really a new thing.
The French Revolution and Marxism really did their thing.
It is not facts so much as definitions we are arguing. Namely your interpretation of said definition. One which, rather than illuminate and define, meaningless expands it to include everything. An interpretation which the wiki page you previously cited doesn't endorse:
Theocracy should be distinguished from other, secular, forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held "By the Grace of God". In the most common usage of the term, some civil rulers are leaders of the dominant religion (e.g., the Byzantine emperor as patron of the head of the official Church); the government claims to rule on behalf of God or a higher power, as specified by the local religion, and divine approval of government institutions and laws. These characteristics apply also to a caesaropapist regime. The Byzantine Empire however was not theocratic since the patriarch answered to the emperor, not vice versa; similarly in Tudor England the crown forced the church to break away from Rome so the royal (and, especially later, parliamentary) power could assume full control of the now Anglican hierarchy and confiscate most church property and income.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It is more symbolism than anything meaningful one could say. The presence of the Bible is there to make the swearing meaningful to so many believers in the country, it is also a tradition, as the ruler shows that he is convinced that his duty is not without consequences outside of the physical world.
It is in fact an odd intrusion of what is generally kept into private life, thus making daily US life a secular affair. Laws and Constitution are fairly detached from any divine nature.
The appeal to god is generally purely convenient and the motto In God We Trust on the dollar bill has always been an odd thing really.
But even symbolism has meaning. They could swear on copies of the constitution or portraits of the Founders. But instead they swear to God.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You would definitely be establishing a theocracy, no doubt about that. What you speak of is almost a textbook rule in a religious kingdom, under a prophet king.
I never said anything about "king" nor a prophet. I said "inspired" by their religion the way a Democrat will advocate Christ's example in helping the poor or a Republican will in the sanctity of life. Simply put you can't dissect a man's religion from him, it guides and influences everything he does for good or ill.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:How it was given birth isn't relevant. We know that such a cult would have been repudiated by the God Emperor himself.
What it is now is a theocracy. High Lords apply the word of the God Emperor. In fact, the whole political dance about how they're put into place is quite totally irrelevant.
It is very much relevant because their head of state happens to also be their god. Therefore even if you completely believed the God Emperor was only a man he would still be the ultimate authority because he is Emperor of mankind. There is no getting around this.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Being a dominant religion isn't enough.
Now if Washington was elevated to godhood, or declared as having had special divine status, like an unique link with God, and got words from his Lord and gave such words to mankind to follow, and that some devout politician rose to power and made them The Law, you would have a theocracy.
So if there was a religion which worshiped Washington as a god and a politician was elected to office believing it and passed legislation and policy based on what Washington would have wanted, his examples and his writings, through the normal constitutional means without any favor granted to it would you call it a theocracy?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:They apply the Lex Imperialis, the word of the GEoM.
They apply the word of the Emperor of man which is their sovereign ruler and has the authority to write and codify any rule of law he so desires. And at this time no evidence has been presented their enforcement or the laws themselves would be any different if the Big E was still kicking.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This would require some even greater leap of faith from the citizens of the IoM.
If Catholicism moved back to three popes, with one left managing the cult, and then had the second one of them specializing in the army branch and the last one in, say, telecommunications and propaganda, they wouldn't be less popes.
The fact these "popes" have no divinity would however. Simply put if the "Church" instead worshiped a crystal dragon instead of the Emperor of mankind there would be no change in the civil structure of the Imperium, there is no evidence the rules of laws would change. All we have is a civil leader who, after his "death" was deified. Okay it actually started back when he was kicking but it was very underground without official backing.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh yes, they clearly have to, for the simple reason that any deviance is heresy.
No. The Decree Passive. The "Church" can not maintain a martial force. Sisters of battle are a loop hole due to the while "Men under arms" thing. But they can't actually order the lowiest soldier as it is offically structured.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It also goes without saying that the Ecclesiarchy is one of the greatest powers in the Council, if not the largest.
One of the greatest? Certainly. The greatest? I'd need to see evidence to support this. There are eight other groups who have a mandatory seat on the High Lords. The Priest of Mars and the Navigator houses could easily rival the raw clout of the "Church", both are absolutely vital in order to maintain the Empire.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The whole system is actually built on the whole premise that this would not and should not happen.
Something like it did happen. Vandire and his blood reign involving the Mechanicus and Space Marines and stomping on Ecclesiarch who dominated both the "Church" and the High Lord government. which is why the Ecclesiarchy are forbidden to maintain armies.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It also goes without saying that denouncing Imperial Faith puts therefore an end to the Cult the Lex Imperialis, therefore cutting the High Lords from any divine legacy.
The lex Imperialis is a law book. Composed by the Emperor of mankind, the defacto ruler of humanity. Its authority is equally solid whether you believe the God Emperor is a god or merely a truly powerful and far sighted mutant who safeguards/safeguarded humankind.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please elaborate on the Laer and what is to be understood by "highly advanced".
They had floating cities, presumed advanced genetic engineering, and energy weapons that could easily pierce through Space Marine armor. I can dig up the quotes if you really want them, from the Fulgrim HH book, but the point is they were not feral. They appeared, from what little we observe, to be a functional society.

Ie you can live a normal live under chaos or at least as normal as you could live under the Imperium.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Point taken. Now we both know that the IoM is far from being perfect. It's quite the contrary. But at least there's a chance to have a normal life. The alternatives just suck more.
And I argued, and provided evidence, that you can have just as normal life under Chaos.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The potential grasp of Chaos is so ubiquitous that I don't see how tranquility would get you a free pass. In fact, you may just fall faster into hedonism or speculation, towards Slaanesh or Tzeentch.
The Imperium lacks not for hedonism, intrigue, defiance or rage. To be human is to fuel the Chaos gods. But listening to them, bringing them into you so to speak and trying to harness them as a weapon is different. Nothing is perfect but a complacent, happy populace is less likely to try and summon a giant ox headed demon of rage and fire.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Isn't exactly what is done, in fact? With the zealotry just being the wrapping for the masses, the leaders being more pragmatic?
Not really:
codex witch hunters 3rd edition page 45 wrote:There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty.-Inquisitor Lord Fyodor Karamazov
Inquisitors essentially have no restraints, no parameters but other Inquisitors. At least officially. Then we get this from fifteen hours from essentially a bureaucrat on a planet of bureaucrats:
A task he performed seven days a week, twelve hours a day, barring two permitted fifteen minute rest-breaks, a full half hour for his midday meal, and a single unpaid holiday every year on Emperor's Day.
a bit of a slave drive which crushes the person in question resulting in at least one mistake that we observe, sending a green regiment to the wrong planet, during the few pages he shows up.

Planetary Governors tend to be hereditary, have a high frequency of being incompetent, inbred, or tainted by cultists rather than being any meritocratic means of selection.

Then we have the Commissar which, while Cain and Gaunt are fairly "nice" and heroic, political officers who execute soldiers for failing objectives, "cowardice" etc which is a ineffective way to manage a professional armed forces.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That just makes you a bigger client for Chaos, not a better human.
Neither side wants me to be a "better human". The Imperium and Chaos will both use me to achieve their ends, it is only a question of who will offer me a better deal.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This totally paints him in a rather nice light in comparison to the complete over the top cult that surrounds his personna by the 41th millennium.
I disagree. He was a fanatical arse who believed devotedly that he knew what was best for humanity. Even back then the alien was something to be despised and hated and on meeting a migratory alliance fleet of both human and alien origin the Iron Hands straight up demanded the humans migrate to a nearby planet to set up "productive" lives and completely disavow their alien brothers. Then they brutally slaughtered them when the fleet refused.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm not evading the point. I've been going at it from the beginning. There's no point ending into the Warp, outside of the GEoM's protection, because outside of it, what was once calm is now Chaos, and the Immaterium is ruled by Chaos.
So you're registering for an eternity of twisted suffering. Killing humanity also means destroying whatever is left of the reign of the GEoM and his main source of protective power. In summary, a massive gamble which, by all looks of it, would easily end with the GEoM simply devoured as a weak soul by the major Chaos players.
You may possibly writhe in eternity or you may simply cease to exist. Your energy devoured. Further there is no evidence that this doesn't happen even if you are devote to the God-Emperor and toil your whole short, miserable life. Third should humanity die off Chaos, deprived of its best food source, has been argued would follow. Or at least that was what the alien cabal argued to the Alpha Legion.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:All too similar to some of the most well known current mainstream religions. Yet, they still allow you to live a good life and enjoy fresh air and pure water, along walking wonderful landscapes.
If you say so. Beyond some window dressing it strikes me just the same as Fascist Italy, Soviet Russia, Communist China or any other greasy two bit dictatorship.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:But it doesn't preclude a good existence for a large portion of humanity.
A "large portion" is a supposition on your part. We know that some worlds are better than others in the Imperium. Same for Chaos. Further to consider are such worlds better due to compliance with the Imperium or despite them? Lastly this feels a bit of a backtrack from your original argument that the Imperium was wholly justified in its opression. Now you appear to argue that its unjustified or at least unsupportable in its worse cases but those are depressing abnormalities and the greater whole is better.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:There is a simple demonstration to be made there.
A god like Slaanesh grew out of/provoked the the death of a large portion of trillions of Eldars, and all of these Chaos gods thrive on soul consumption in some manner.
The Imperium has counted billions upon billions of beings, if not trillions to put it simply, and this has gone on for millennia, all dying in the end.
If the souls of all these people were not protected somehow, but instead falling into the clutches of Chaos, Chaos would be faaaaar more powerful "now" that ever. Yet such is not the case, and anything looking like a victory to them has more to do with the IoM suffering from internal crippling than an absolute and real increase of power.
The fluff argues differently. The Cabal and their goal to destroy Chaos. Simply put the Emperor winning the Horus Heresy was Chaos's best case scenario.

But in any event thank you for answering the question.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You are not alone, that is the point.
Sigh. Let me rephrase it. I believe your principals matter more when the going gets tough rather than less. That they define you, guide you and empower you. Conversely you, from what I can gather, seem to define them as something of a hindrance. Something that in good times are okay but when the pressure's on must be disposed of.

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Re: An Assay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by Lucky » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:15 am

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Actually has something consistent to say about Utilitarianism

40K, especially the Imperium of Man, is a fascinating universe in part because it accomplishes something that can only be done when you play some of these tropes perfectly straight. It constructs an Alternate Universe where fascist policies are not just justified, but absolutely required for mere survival. As someone else put it, "if you let me put my thumb on the utilitarian scales, I can get you to agree that you have an affirmative moral duty to torture a three-year-old child to death." Indeed.

Consider the humans' position against the 14 characteristics of fascism. Nearly all are justified, because the 40K universe is so damned dangerous. When High Chancellor Sutler says "I want this country to realize that we stand on the edge of oblivion", when Ernst Röhm says that "the people desire wholesome dread", when fundamentalists invoke the phrase "With Us or Against Us", this is the imaginary universe they live in.
Unfortunately what characters who's sanity is often in question say is not a reliable source of anything.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: • • Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: It's not like you can emigrate anywhere. (Well, maybe the Tau Empire.)
◦ Or The Eye of Terror....
As I understand it, there are a number of Xeno empires beyond the Tau, IOM, Orks, Eldar, but if there is nowhere to go to then this is not evidence supporting the the author's claim.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights: They have an Inquisition, and it's actually necessary to prevent chaos demons from appearing everywhere.
And all this is the result of Chaos tainted texts written by a man who worshipped Chaos undivided, and works to make Chaos seem like a reasonable alternative. People who are content with their lives are not going to join Chaos.

Secondly Chaos and xenos were more a minor threat prior to the God Emperor's death. Planets weren't being threatened by Chaos, and humans and xenos lived happily side by side in some cases.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: It's pretty easy when the scapegoats are constantly spitting acid on the front door.
The only thing this describes is Tyranids, and it was again Chaos that wants the anti-xeno stance as it strengthen it/them, and drives people to them.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Supremacy of the Military: War is everywhere, and failure means the deaths of billions. The military is all that stands between humanity and chaotic oblivion. However, unlike with the 14 characteristics, the military is not precisely glorified. With a few exceptions, Imperial Guardsmen are taught that the military is, like everything else in the Imperium, a tool of survival. Unlike most fascist regimes, in which the military is a means to righteous victory over the Supreme Leader's many and sundry enemies, victory is not spoken of in the Imperium, only survival. Because victory is widely perceived to be (and actually is) impossible, a perception common among rank-and-file Guardsmen themselves, any potential glamour or glory the military might have is ground down by the reality of constant war. Contrast with facist imagery of long struggles but quick and victorious wars over the weak and spineless enemy. Even the grandiose religious and authoritarian imagery woven into the Imperial Guard's equipment (battleships built like cathedrals, tanks built like castles) has a practical purpose: to keep both the Guardsmen and the populations they 'defend' in awe of the might of the Imperium, reducing the likelihood of revolt or mutiny.
Sadly the constant revolts and seemingly hopelessness are not a xeno or chaos doing, but a direct result of a lack of human rights. The constant wars are a waste of resources that could be avoided. As things stand the wars only weaken the IOM while strengthening its enemies.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Controlled Mass Media: "Knowledge is power; guard it well." It's nigh-impossible to know what's really happening in the Imperium, since the bureaucracy hides it. The reasons for doing this range from simply keeping the masses loyal and productive (if there is, say, a genestealer cult on the planet, the populace doesn't need to know; if they're panicking in the streets they aren't growing crops or building weapons for the Imperium), to protection against the fact that in this universe, knowledge can LITERALLY be power. Power that can make you pants-crappingly insane or summon The Legions of Hell. Which leads to our next point...
A lack of understanding as to what Chaos and Tyranids are is a weakness Chaos and tyranids exploit, and you don't even need to know who or what you are worshipping to summon a daemon and feed chaos, or summon a swarm.

The IOM does not actually control the information, but rather tries to hide it, and hurts itself in the process. Information is so poorly guarded that they are regressing technologically.

For what the IOM should do google "Apriori Public Service Announcements".

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Obsession with National Security: The whole universe is a thin sheen of normality built atop a gigantic Negative Space Wedgie; the obsession with defense and warfare is crucial to the survival of humanity. On a more local scale, constant vigilance against heretic, xeno, mutant, and witch (psyker). Any one of these groups can destroy an entire planet with relative ease and can show up at any time. For example: a Chaos fleet shows up above a random planet, the uncertain nature of FTL travel having thrown them thousands of light years off course. A heretics summon demons. Eldar glass your cities on the off chance it'll save a handful of their people. Psyker's brain explodes in crowded work camp, kills hundreds, attracts notice of Tzeentch. The Imperium's sole defense against such threats is an obsession with security.
Shame this obsession is taken to such an extreme that the IOM has become its own greatest enemy, and excess strengthen Chaos and makes one easier to corrupt and or manipulate.

Again IOM practices hamper security, and it is strange that pre-IOM there don't seem to be many problems with Xenos and Chaos? It's almost like the Lectitio Divintatuus makes things worse... Now why would a text written by a worshipper of Chaos undivided do that, but the Imperial Truth not cause so many problems?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Religion and Government are Intertwined: The Empire of Man is a straight-up theocracy, because not only is worship of the Emperor justified, it's required for the Astronomican (A huge psychic beacon that guides faster-than-light travel all over the galaxy) to work.
I take it the author doesn't actually know what he/she is talking about here if a quick google can show the author is wrong as per 40K fluff.

No, The Astronomnicron is powered by psykers.

Worship of the God Emperor was something the God Emperor did not want. The Imperial Truth and Lectitio Divintatus are two different and contradictory things. The GM wrote the Imperial Truth, but Lorgar the chaos undivided worshiping primarch wrote the Lectitio Divintatus. The Chaos text is the IOM holy book.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Think you're the smartest guy in the room? You're channeling Tzeentch. If your art becomes too degenerate, say hi to Slaanesh when he shows up. Of course, if you ask too many questions in the first place, the Inquisition will just get to you first.
and yet the God Emperor was all for logic and reason to rule the day. Extreme excess and ceremony are needed for Chaos to do anything in the material world.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Obsession with Crime and Punishment: When your crimes can summon demons and destroy worlds, the state is justified in being interested in them... and these crimes may not directly involve the accused harming anyone.
There is no such thing as a victimless crime, but this in no way supports or disproves the claim that the IOM's excesses are necessary.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/Warhammer40000 wrote: Protection of Corporate Power: Due to the unimaginably vast nature of the Imperium, it is incredibly decentralized. Vast corporations, many of which span whole star clusters, can be enormously powerful, and the central government places no restrictions at all upon their behavior. While the individual planetary governments could, in theory, regulate corporations, the sheer size of many corporations makes any kind of practical control unlikely, as the resources of such corporations easily dwarf those of most individual worlds (with the exception of Hive and Forge worlds, most Imperial planets hover developmentally between about AD ~1000-2000). As mentioned, the sheer vastness of the Empire makes such laissez-faire policies almost required.
Again, a lack of human rights hurts the IOM in a number of ways.

1) It drives people to Chaos.

2) It causes mundane revolts.

3) It hurts general productivity. Happy people tend to be more productive then unhappy people.

4) There just too much wrong with this statement.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: An Assay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun May 19, 2013 9:17 pm

sonofccn wrote:It is not facts so much as definitions we are arguing. Namely your interpretation of said definition. One which, rather than illuminate and define, meaningless expands it to include everything. An interpretation which the wiki page you previously cited doesn't endorse:
Theocracy should be distinguished from other, secular, forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held "By the Grace of God". In the most common usage of the term, some civil rulers are leaders of the dominant religion (e.g., the Byzantine emperor as patron of the head of the official Church); the government claims to rule on behalf of God or a higher power, as specified by the local religion, and divine approval of government institutions and laws. These characteristics apply also to a caesaropapist regime. The Byzantine Empire however was not theocratic since the patriarch answered to the emperor, not vice versa; similarly in Tudor England the crown forced the church to break away from Rome so the royal (and, especially later, parliamentary) power could assume full control of the now Anglican hierarchy and confiscate most church property and income.
There is no obfuscation.
A proper definition as found in the encyclopedia reads as follows:
theocracy, government by divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. In many theocracies, government leaders are members of the clergy, and the state’s legal system is based on religious law. Theocratic rule was typical of early civilizations. The Enlightenment marked the end of theocracy in most Western countries. Contemporary examples of theocracies include Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the Vatican. See also church and state; sacred kingship.
Iran has a president, but the religious power is strong and works on the understanding of the divine teachings revealed to Muhammad by Yawveh/God/Allah and put into the Quran. Plus some haddiths.
Iran is an interesting example because the president can be replaced by a Council of the High Lords of Terra and we get the almost exact configuration of the Imperium.
The exemple of Vatican is just a confirmation.

Now, the Imperium is a complicated beast.
Recognizing a Law, taking it as granted and guiding (as specified in the WH40K books), which is clearly religious, and enforcing it, cannot mean anything else but being religious.
Secular apostolate fits to define religious preachers who are noted for their proselytism, although they do not belong to the clergy of their respective religion.

The fact that in the Imperium, the Adeptus Ministorum has a major seat of power through the Ecclesiarch, and that it holds and upholds the religious Law, a task actually shared by other arms of the Imperium, immensely emphasizes how religion pervades all the imperial structure. It is permanent. Quoting Lexicanum, this precisely happened 300 years after Ecclesiarch Veneris II became High Lord of Terra, in the 32nd millennium.
One cannot even ignore the importance of Cardinals of the Holy Synod of Terra and Adepta Sororita in the Senatorum Imperialis, which is more of the same clergy soup. These two groups routinely get a seat in the SI.
Call it a softer theocracy where the clergy doesn't directly control all or hasn't necessarily the final say. But it's to be mitigated, because the final say still remains tributary of the understanding of the Law, which is religious, and the authority to refer to in order to properly understand said Law still remains the Imperium's official and unique clergy.

What makes the reading of the political structure harder is that a large part of its lead is "religiously secular", in a sort of catholic way, and is not subordinated to one or several members of the clergy.
Thought it was easy? They still claim to follow the orders from the Emperor, who for all intents and purposes is still alive! Which means that the divine source of the Law and, in theory, absolute authority of the clergy, is still among humans. This sort of Jesus Warrior's continuous presence kind of makes the High Lords of Terra apostles on a self-regenerated leasehold.
Indeed, as we would think all is solved, we have to remember that the High Lords enforce the will of God. Simply put, this makes them part of an unofficial clergy.

In the early former century, several countries in Europe witnessed a strong separation between religion and civil life, so much that the number of non-clerical praedicators dwindled.
Vatican II was noted for particular efforts to recreate a stronger bond between the clergy and secular preachers, in a way that mirrors what protestantism has been doing for ages.
The Imperium doesn't know such a problem. On the contrary, it encourages, if not forces all citizens to revere the Law and recognize the all power of the God Emperor of Mankind.

Therefore, if we strictly limit ourselves to the most literal and firm definition of theocracy, the Imperium is a half arsed beast. It is not a strict total theocracy, but an intermediary one, with a strong verge on the religious side, obviously.
But more modern and complex takes on the concept of theocracy clearly make the Imperium a theocratic government.
The rule of the clergy is limited, incomplete, although the political power is clearly not detached from the clergy's power and influence. In modern definitions, this is what Iran is about.

Also, wikipedia is all too subjective a source to bother with in this case. Definitions from more definitive sources are much more suited and welcome.
But if we were to take the wikipedia article at face value, here is what we would get:

The USA, with its allegiance to its flag under the authority of God, is pretty much "influenced by theological or moral concepts".
As for monarchies held by the grace of god, I didn't include them. Without the presence of a religious Law enforced by the authority, you need rulers who claim -or are recognized- to be of divine essence to some extent and also claim to further the will of gods.
See your former Washington example, which perfectly illustrates this.

Heck, you even have this:;

"In the most common usage of the term, some civil rulers are leaders of the dominant religion (e.g., the Byzantine emperor as patron of the head of the official Church); the government claims to rule on behalf of God or a higher power, as specified by the local religion, and divine approval of government institutions and laws."

We also have to be careful with talking about the Byzantine Empire, since it evolved, exactly as the IoM did.
It is even more funny because many historians refer to the Byzantine Empire as a theocracy. In other sources, its Emperor is clearly defined as endowed with large religious authority, elected by God, if not literally his walking equivalent or created by God directly, and later under Macedonian influence, the elective title would be extended to his family.
In many ways, this is more theocratic than the IoM, yet wikipedia doesn't enjoy defining this empire as a theocracy. Bad for them, couldn't care less. It's merely the opinion of some anonymous editor in the end.

I think right now we could stop splitting hairs to some impossible extent.
In Warhammer 40000, the High Lords rule on behalf of the GEoM. They represent his authority. They also follow the Lex Imperialis, which is like the New Testament: better than the Quran and Old Testament, revealed by prophets with some special connection with God, it was revealed by God himself as he walked among humans (Jesus in Space, with battle armour), and he still lives. Add to that the following facts: one of the High Lords helms a branch of the power dedicated to the merciless application of this Book of Law, and another very powerful branch dedicated to the spread and solidification of the Cult of the GEoM.
Their law is the law of God. The cereals they eat at breakfast all spell GEOM.

Now, I present an important element that clearly makes the SI much less secular than you would think. It is relevant to the concept of guidance, which is of utmost importance here.
Let me cite the Codex Imperialis.
Codex Imperialis, page 14 wrote: The High Lords are the twelve most powerful men in the galaxy. They rule the Imperium in the Emperor's name, and it is they who send the Imperium's fleets to war and who direct the Imperium's inexhaustible armies. Their task is to interpret and enact the Emperor's will, relying upon His potent mind to guide their thoughts and inspire their actions.
The claim is clear: they have a link with God.
They are Apostles.
And at the same time sit outside of the Adeptus Ministorum.
Fun eh?
There are literally two clergies at the helm of the Imperium.
Plus, even the official one has a subdominion, the Synod Ministra, which guarantees security and supposedly exists to prevent the rise of another Vandire.

Besides, even the Ecclesiarchy has its own more secular activities.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It is more symbolism than anything meaningful one could say. The presence of the Bible is there to make the swearing meaningful to so many believers in the country, it is also a tradition, as the ruler shows that he is convinced that his duty is not without consequences outside of the physical world.
It is in fact an odd intrusion of what is generally kept into private life, thus making daily US life a secular affair. Laws and Constitution are fairly detached from any divine nature.
The appeal to god is generally purely convenient and the motto In God We Trust on the dollar bill has always been an odd thing really.
But even symbolism has meaning. They could swear on copies of the constitution or portraits of the Founders. But instead they swear to God.
Not all symbols have the same value, and it is also correct that in several ways, the claim of following God's authority (notably as repeated during the allegiance to the flag) really makes this case almost borderline at times.
This is pretty much why the USA would easily flip into a theocracy at the first incursion of Daemons.
In fact there have been debates to consider that the very preachy government under Bush was very theocratic.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:You would definitely be establishing a theocracy, no doubt about that. What you speak of is almost a textbook rule in a religious kingdom, under a prophet king.
I never said anything about "king" nor a prophet. I said "inspired" by their religion the way a Democrat will advocate Christ's example in helping the poor or a Republican will in the sanctity of life. Simply put you can't dissect a man's religion from him, it guides and influences everything he does for good or ill.
OK, I guess I didn't fully appreciate the value of the "".
Then we would have to define exactly what the inspiration is all about and what the results are. It may be too vague here. One could pass a law about non stealing and think of some line picked from the Old Testament just as much as you could pick it from Harry Potter or Starship Troopers.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:How it was given birth isn't relevant. We know that such a cult would have been repudiated by the God Emperor himself.
What it is now is a theocracy. High Lords apply the word of the God Emperor. In fact, the whole political dance about how they're put into place is quite totally irrelevant.
It is very much relevant because their head of state happens to also be their god. Therefore even if you completely believed the God Emperor was only a man he would still be the ultimate authority because he is Emperor of mankind. There is no getting around this.
It is still completely irrevelant. We focus on the present system, not what it once was millennia ago, just as much as you don't judge the spiritual and juidicial mechanisms of the current Catholic dogma based on proto-christianity or whatever existed before that. Especially when we know it was a different beast.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Being a dominant religion isn't enough.
Now if Washington was elevated to godhood, or declared as having had special divine status, like an unique link with God, and got words from his Lord and gave such words to mankind to follow, and that some devout politician rose to power and made them The Law, you would have a theocracy.
So if there was a religion which worshiped Washington as a god and a politician was elected to office believing it and passed legislation and policy based on what Washington would have wanted, his examples and his writings, through the normal constitutional means without any favor granted to it would you call it a theocracy?
Probably a slightly weak form of it, but yes. There would be elements to add to make it a strong form of theocracy. The claim of infaillibility, a special link with said god in some fashion would definitely help, beyond mere faith which would be expected of any follower. And then again, it's a bit complex to sort out because any believer can be reached by God directly in most religions, through a clear message, more than just a "feeling" of faith. There would probably be where the clergy managed this cult to encrown the leader of that nation.
After all, for all intents and purposes, that what popes do, don't they?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:They apply the Lex Imperialis, the word of the GEoM.
They apply the word of the Emperor of man which is their sovereign ruler and has the authority to write and codify any rule of law he so desires. And at this time no evidence has been presented their enforcement or the laws themselves would be any different if the Big E was still kicking.
According to the present cult, their sovereign ruler is not some common folksman; the Big E is God. So under this light, would he be incarnated and walking among men, his law would be absolutely divine, and as such, if there is no evidence that the enforcement of His Law is different from him being among men to him not being among men, then you are in fact solidifying the theocracy.
That is why you make the mistake of refering to an old religious model to define the current political system.
Not to say that we do have evidence that the High Lords are considered in the light of God directly, and by this, always with his spirit.
That is basically what you'd hear any random description of Popes.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This would require some even greater leap of faith from the citizens of the IoM.
If Catholicism moved back to three popes, with one left managing the cult, and then had the second one of them specializing in the army branch and the last one in, say, telecommunications and propaganda, they wouldn't be less popes.
The fact these "popes" have no divinity would however. Simply put if the "Church" instead worshiped a crystal dragon instead of the Emperor of mankind there would be no change in the civil structure of the Imperium, there is no evidence the rules of laws would change. All we have is a civil leader who, after his "death" was deified. Okay it actually started back when he was kicking but it was very underground without official backing.
What it was is of no importance, just as less as the form of the god wouldn't matter a nut as long as what is worshipped is of divine nature.
It also takes a really bad faith to claim that if the world would be ruled by the Papacy, we couldn't call that a theocracy.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Oh yes, they clearly have to, for the simple reason that any deviance is heresy.
No. The Decree Passive. The "Church" can not maintain a martial force. Sisters of battle are a loop hole due to the while "Men under arms" thing. But they can't actually order the lowiest soldier as it is offically structured.
I didn't say they give orders, I said they put obstacles. These obstacles are certainly and mostly based on the following of the dogmatic Cult of the Emperor Saviour. It's up to the respective powers of the Adeptus Terra to behave according to these barriers.
They make general guidelines, sometimes go into detail (because the preachers still have at least one book to preach from so there obviously is a ton of material to follow).
Besides, contrary to what you claim, preachers alone already have the power to hand heretics over to the Judges, and this is clearly a form of authority that applies to all within the IoM safe for the obscure groups and the dready Inquisition (which ironically enough is partially built from recruits grown by the Ecclesiarchy).

Your analysis of the Imperium is not only stuck into reading too much about its past, but it is also way too formal.
This is why you miss all facts that scream theocracy at every corner.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It also goes without saying that the Ecclesiarchy is one of the greatest powers in the Council, if not the largest.
One of the greatest? Certainly. The greatest? I'd need to see evidence to support this. There are eight other groups who have a mandatory seat on the High Lords. The Priest of Mars and the Navigator houses could easily rival the raw clout of the "Church", both are absolutely vital in order to maintain the Empire.
Interestingly, the two examples you gave a clearly subordinates of the Adeptus Terra, which on the hierarchy is about level with the Inquisition and the Church. The first because it follows its own rules, the second most likely because it counts countless departments. The caveat that deals with the Adeptus Sororitas even gives the Cult a theoretical access to half of the human population (minus the too young, the aged and the cripple). The AS has its own fleets. It can even obtain its own seat in the Council at times. The Cult's power has globally increased (although Vandire's reign neutered once more the Cult's capacity to supervise a military power - minues the caverat we know).
But, anyway, this is not really important. I won't argue that point any longer.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The whole system is actually built on the whole premise that this would not and should not happen.
Something like it did happen. Vandire and his blood reign involving the Mechanicus and Space Marines and stomping on Ecclesiarch who dominated both the "Church" and the High Lord government. which is why the Ecclesiarchy are forbidden to maintain armies.
Not really; Vandire didn't defeat/"boss" the Ecclesiarchy, he literally took control of it, notably by kicking the Ecclesiarch out on charges of heresy: therefore a purely religious charge.
That is a direct acknowledgement of the power of the religious cult and is tantamount to its necessity and power, and that it's really meant to stay. Even S. Thor, the saviour and liberator, became the new Ecclesiarch.
In "current" 40K, it has grown to the point of championing a need for a faith, and this faith is directly used to fuel spells which are the only tools known to defeat the most powerful Daemons.
There is, therefore, a direct application and demonstration of the necessity of a cohesive and powerful religious cult.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It also goes without saying that denouncing Imperial Faith puts therefore an end to the Cult of the Lex Imperialis, therefore cutting the High Lords from any divine legacy.
The lex Imperialis is a law book. Composed by the Emperor of mankind, the defacto ruler of humanity. Its authority is equally solid whether you believe the God Emperor is a god or merely a truly powerful and far sighted mutant who safeguards/safeguarded humankind.
No. You continually try to redefine the GEoM through his past nature while it is irrelevant, because the cult has made him a real god. As I repeatedly said now, there is no point using the outdated rules to analyze the current system.
Originally, he was some kind of super warrior, perhaps part prophet but it's not given, although assuredly messiah.
Now he is messiah, saviour and god; it is under this current nature that one has to look at his words.
The longer you refuse to do that, the worse you understanding of the theocratic nature of the Imperium will be, and there is no point continuing, as it is totally irrelevant.
It is totally meaningless to discuss the past. Why insist?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Please elaborate on the Laer and what is to be understood by "highly advanced".
They had floating cities, presumed advanced genetic engineering, and energy weapons that could easily pierce through Space Marine armor. I can dig up the quotes if you really want them, from the Fulgrim HH book, but the point is they were not feral. They appeared, from what little we observe, to be a functional society.

Ie you can live a normal live under chaos or at least as normal as you could live under the Imperium.
You have not demonstrated that they had a normal life, nor that they were not in a state of decadence.
You have merely provided an example where a society had access to high technology (which is all relative, Chaos taint doesn't prevent from having several km large structures floating above the ground for all we know).
Were the Laer even linked to the warp as much as humans are?
Are we supposed to accept a whole pro-Chaos slant on the basis of some heavily extrapolated opinion about some marginally known group of aliens, non humanoid at that!? Preposterous!
Let's remember the Eldars, for whom everything was fine and well in their lusty world until the day their gratuitous semen rains glued together a Chaos god.
Then they died by the trillions in a heartbeat, leaving a whole civilization in shambles, with today the survivors running away, hiding, or being murderous and vicious sickos.
I think basing our opinion on actual human societies afflicted by the Chaost plague has more merits.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The potential grasp of Chaos is so ubiquitous that I don't see how tranquility would get you a free pass. In fact, you may just fall faster into hedonism or speculation, towards Slaanesh or Tzeentch.
The Imperium lacks not for hedonism, intrigue, defiance or rage. To be human is to fuel the Chaos gods. But listening to them, bringing them into you so to speak and trying to harness them as a weapon is different. Nothing is perfect but a complacent, happy populace is less likely to try and summon a giant ox headed demon of rage and fire.
And yes, strangely enough, you have not brought evidence that a complacent happy populace could defend itself against Chaos monstrosities.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Isn't exactly what is done, in fact? With the zealotry just being the wrapping for the masses, the leaders being more pragmatic?
Not really:
codex witch hunters 3rd edition page 45 wrote:There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty.-Inquisitor Lord Fyodor Karamazov
Inquisitors essentially have no restraints, no parameters but other Inquisitors. At least officially. Then we get this from fifteen hours from essentially a bureaucrat on a planet of bureaucrats:
A task he performed seven days a week, twelve hours a day, barring two permitted fifteen minute rest-breaks, a full half hour for his midday meal, and a single unpaid holiday every year on Emperor's Day.
a bit of a slave drive which crushes the person in question resulting in at least one mistake that we observe, sending a green regiment to the wrong planet, during the few pages he shows up.

Planetary Governors tend to be hereditary, have a high frequency of being incompetent, inbred, or tainted by cultists rather than being any meritocratic means of selection.

Then we have the Commissar which, while Cain and Gaunt are fairly "nice" and heroic, political officers who execute soldiers for failing objectives, "cowardice" etc which is a ineffective way to manage a professional armed forces.
Commissars aren't the leaders.
Nor are the inquisition agents, who we've seen discuss about application of death through massive firepower and have to obtain sort of decrees to do so. Reason isn't out of the loop when they take a decision, and decisions on Exterminatii aren't taken lightly.
A for the incompetence of governors, aren't we getting into a faulty generality here? If it were true, the Imperium would have been dead ages ago, as there's no way it could survive if all planets, the majority of them under the rule of governors, were not managed with a minimal amount of efficient anyway, even if by total dicks.
It still remains, after all, an empire that counts thousands upon thousands of hive worlds where only the rich live at the top of urban nightmares.

The point of the essay really was simple: it's shit and dystopic, but it cannot be changed. Worse, it still works and has shaped its ruling body's motto as to fit with the harsh realities.
Everything that is against the Imperium has been raised to some ridiculously radical magnitude. You cannot fight that, especially over such a large territory, without sacrificing on certain things.
You cannot reform society, have pompous political debates and bring in Human Rights (which are not a panacea btw) in such a state of despair and creep. You're forced into a war where millions will die by the truckloads and you don't even have time to organize yourself, even less to reform the whole society from the ground.
Millennia ago? yes. Not now. Too late, mate.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That just makes you a bigger client for Chaos, not a better human.
Neither side wants me to be a "better human". The Imperium and Chaos will both use me to achieve their ends, it is only a question of who will offer me a better deal.
Absurd.
When Chaos offers only senseless gore, rivers of puss, mazes of mental twist, sick appendages and pain, there's clearly something wrong in humans who want to get there instead of wanting to remain as close as possible to the perfection incarnated by the Holy God Emperor. ;)
Which, despite the crude reality of it all, remains a reality and a possibility in the Imperium.

Actually the Big E was every bit as dogmatic as his later day servants are. To wit when he showed up you had a choice to join him or he'd crush and annex you. Anything he didn't like, such as religion, would be abolished. He was, in other words, a conquering warlord who believed he had a manifest destiny to "unite" mankind.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This totally paints him in a rather nice light in comparison to the complete over the top cult that surrounds his personna by the 41th millennium.
I disagree. He was a fanatical arse who believed devotedly that he knew what was best for humanity. Even back then the alien was something to be despised and hated and on meeting a migratory alliance fleet of both human and alien origin the Iron Hands straight up demanded the humans migrate to a nearby planet to set up "productive" lives and completely disavow their alien brothers. Then they brutally slaughtered them when the fleet refused.
He just happened to have a link to the Warp stronger than any human's, and thus being in the best position to know what awaited humanity outside.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm not evading the point. I've been going at it from the beginning. There's no point ending into the Warp, outside of the GEoM's protection, because outside of it, what was once calm is now Chaos, and the Immaterium is ruled by Chaos.
So you're registering for an eternity of twisted suffering. Killing humanity also means destroying whatever is left of the reign of the GEoM and his main source of protective power. In summary, a massive gamble which, by all looks of it, would easily end with the GEoM simply devoured as a weak soul by the major Chaos players.
You may possibly writhe in eternity or you may simply cease to exist. Your energy devoured. Further there is no evidence that this doesn't happen even if you are devote to the God-Emperor and toil your whole short, miserable life. Third should humanity die off Chaos, deprived of its best food source, has been argued would follow. Or at least that was what the alien cabal argued to the Alpha Legion.
Yeah, so I must take the word of some suicidal Chaos adept now. :P
ROFL
Mr. Oragahn wrote:All too similar to some of the most well known current mainstream religions. Yet, they still allow you to live a good life and enjoy fresh air and pure water, along walking wonderful landscapes.
If you say so. Beyond some window dressing it strikes me just the same as Fascist Italy, Soviet Russia, Communist China or any other greasy two bit dictatorship.
You can live well, very well, in a dictatorship, as long as you're on the right side.
The criteria this time are quite generous, because you have to be a human and fight for mankind.
There could be worse deals, really.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:But it doesn't preclude a good existence for a large portion of humanity.
A "large portion" is a supposition on your part. We know that some worlds are better than others in the Imperium. Same for Chaos. Further to consider are such worlds better due to compliance with the Imperium or despite them? Lastly this feels a bit of a backtrack from your original argument that the Imperium was wholly justified in its opression. Now you appear to argue that its unjustified or at least unsupportable in its worse cases but those are depressing abnormalities and the greater whole is better.
No. I'm saying there are trade offs, nothing is perfect, but the IoM doesn't have the luxury to rearrange itself. Would it attempt anything, it would crumble.
That would only reinforce Chaos and make things harder for the humanity that didn't go down the drain.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:There is a simple demonstration to be made there.
A god like Slaanesh grew out of/provoked the the death of a large portion of trillions of Eldars, and all of these Chaos gods thrive on soul consumption in some manner.
The Imperium has counted billions upon billions of beings, if not trillions to put it simply, and this has gone on for millennia, all dying in the end.
If the souls of all these people were not protected somehow, but instead falling into the clutches of Chaos, Chaos would be faaaaar more powerful "now" that ever. Yet such is not the case, and anything looking like a victory to them has more to do with the IoM suffering from internal crippling than an absolute and real increase of power.
The fluff argues differently. The Cabal and their goal to destroy Chaos. Simply put the Emperor winning the Horus Heresy was Chaos's best case scenario.

But in any event thank you for answering the question.
The cabal's projections fail on both sides. Nothing says that their projections were correct or the only ones. So convinced that only two could happen, it seems they haven't considered finding a failsafe that would guarantee the GEOM's death in the second case.
Humanity proved to be a little nuisance when it was small and isolated on Terra. It also proved to be good and powerful as united under the GEOM.
It is the Heresy which brought it down, and for all intents and purposes, teh cabal played a large role into it apparently. One could say they kickstarted said Heresy.
For all we know, they could be a tool of Tzeentch, pulling strings.
A more manageable quantity of humans would certainly improve things, and it should only be sought in a peaceful way, to avoid pain.

Most seriously, the best way such a thing could happen would be through the use of a poison doubled with some euphoric and sleeping drug, spread across entire worlds, especially the worst ones.
People would either die by millions or billions or become sterile, although the former would be better.
It's already a dramatic and harsh "solution" here, but the best to do is avoid resent, pain and sadness.
Remnant humanity would regroup and coalesce into better combat units over simpler territorial zones.
Much like the Tau. Trouble is such a project could only be managed in peaceful times. By receding now, the enemies would gain momentum and grow confident.
And these enemies are two numerous and powerful for the Imperium to even think about going backwards.
So yes, hello to our grimdark setting, there is nothing you can do about it.

Other than that, a resurrection of the GEOM wouldn't help at all. Only he becoming a complete Warp god, with the support of human souls, would begin to neutralize the Chaos gods, and therefore level the playfield and allow humanity to work towards a better condition.

sonofccn
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Re: An Assay I found on the Imperium of Man's evils being ne

Post by sonofccn » Mon May 20, 2013 5:38 pm

Honestly I'd forgotten about this discussion but if your still willing I'm game Mr. Oragahn. Of course, in light of the back and forth nature of our replies, I am also perfectly willing to agree to disagree should decide that. Ulimatly I would argue we have such a fundimental schism that no other agreement is possible.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Iran has a president, but the religious power is strong and works on the understanding of the divine teachings revealed to Muhammad by Yawveh/God/Allah and put into the Quran. Plus some haddiths.
Iran is an interesting example because the president can be replaced by a Council of the High Lords of Terra and we get the almost exact configuration of the Imperium.
And if you have evidence the “Church” can do this to the High Lords, act as power behind the throne as it were as is the case in Iran, I will change my opinion.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Recognizing a Law, taking it as granted and guiding (as specified in the WH40K books), which is clearly religious, and enforcing it, cannot mean anything else but being religious.
Religiously derived as virtually all laws are throughout history. Murder for instance was decried in various Religions long before the current Governments enacted the laws pertaining thereto.
Call it a softer theocracy where the clergy doesn't directly control all or hasn't necessarily the final say. But it's to be mitigated, because the final say still remains tributary of the understanding of the Law, which is religious, and the authority to refer to in order to properly understand said Law still remains the Imperium's official and unique clergy.
Except the laws, while handed down from a being now regarded as holy, are civil statues enforced and carried out by organizations and people not endowed with divine status. Which, I would argue, is the sticking point. Just about any law or moral underpinning of society can be traced back to some religion if you go far enough. A core part of my argument is that religion by itself is not enough to equal theocracy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:What makes the reading of the political structure harder is that a large part of its lead is "religiously secular", in a sort of catholic way, and is not subordinated to one or several members of the clergy.
I don’t think I would call the IOM a secular organization, “religiously secular” or otherwise. It’s a deeply religious organization but that alone does not make it a theocracy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Also, wikipedia is all too subjective a source to bother with in this case.
You quoted Wikipedia. I was merely highlighting your source didn't agree with your argument.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The USA, with its allegiance to its flag under the authority of God, is pretty much "influenced by theological or moral concepts".
Which, according to your definition, makes it a theocracy. A nation which constitutionally is prevented from passing laws concerning religion. Which I hoped would make a point.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:As for monarchies held by the grace of god, I didn't include them. Without the presence of a religious Law enforced by the authority, you need rulers who claim -or are recognized- to be of divine essence to some extent and also claim to further the will of gods.
Except ye kings of old were blatantly justifying their right to rule via a god like being. They were equally as divinely appointed to their throne as the High Lords were/are/will be. You can't just give them a pass.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:We also have to be careful with talking about the Byzantine Empire, since it evolved, exactly as the IoM did.
It is even more funny because many historians refer to the Byzantine Empire as a theocracy. In other sources, its Emperor is clearly defined as endowed with large religious authority, elected by God, if not literally his walking equivalent or created by God directly, and later under Macedonian influence, the elective title would be extended to his family.
In many ways, this is more theocratic than the IoM, yet wikipedia doesn't enjoy defining this empire as a theocracy. Bad for them, couldn't care less. It's merely the opinion of some anonymous editor in the end.
I don't believe I mentioned the Byzantine empire. And just for the record again you cited Wikipedia.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I think right now we could stop splitting hairs to some impossible extent.
In Warhammer 40000, the High Lords rule on behalf of the GEoM. They represent his authority. They also follow the Lex Imperialis, which is like the New Testament
They serve in his absence yes. They also believe he is a god and strive to follow his example and teachings. To that end they have enacted a “law book”, which we must note is distinct from the holy book of the “Church”, based on his rulings, edicts etc he purportedly made while still alive. Religiously motivated? I’d agree whole heartedly. Incestuous relationship with the “Church”? Again I would concur. But is that enough to make it a theocracy? I would argue not, many laws in the US are similar if not derived from biblical morality.

Further in any representative society one would expect citizens to emplace laws and regulations they feel are in sync with their values which would be heavily influenced by their religion. As long as the mechanism of governance are distinct from the religion itself there shouldn’t be an issue but a honest reflection of the peoples’ whims and wishes. And while a crummy, broken down and very poor example the IOM does have distinct, if interlocked, mechanisms of worship and governance. Your Planetary Governor may feel his he carrying out the Emperor’s will, to further his goals here on “earth”, but he doesn’t claim to be a mouth piece for the Emperor or that he is in a direct and personal communion to justify his position or edicts.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Add to that the following facts: one of the High Lords helms a branch of the power dedicated to the merciless application of this Book of Law, and another very powerful branch dedicated to the spread and solidification of the Cult of the GEoM.
The Adeptus Arbites are at best a subdivision of a group which falls under the purview of a High Lord of Terra and involves the enforcing of the civil laws of the IOM. And no evidence has been presented that the representative of the "Church" is any more powerful than the other special mentions.

But leaving all that by the side we still have a book of law which you have provided no evidence would be any different or enforced any less radically if they merely revered the Big E as a "great man" as opposed to a god. You have provided no evidence these rules are carried out and invested with actual divine authority as opposed to people earnestly trying to live by the teachings of their chosen deity.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, I present an important element that clearly makes the SI much less secular than you would think
I really wouldn't call the IOM secular. I think they are devoutly religious. Religious zealots. I just don't think that makes them theocratic by any reasonable metric.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The claim is clear: they have a link with God
In so much as they believe in a greater power and seek his guidance. Just about every US President would meet that criterion. Hell I'd go out on a ledge and say that most leaders on this globe, if pressed, believed in some higher power and sought guidance from it.

This is far and away from justifying authority via a special connection to god.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Not all symbols have the same value, and it is also correct that in several ways, the claim of following God's authority (notably as repeated during the allegiance to the flag) really makes this case almost borderline at times.
I honestly don't see what's borderline under your definition. By your logic all US Presidents sheath themselves in the divine. So either the US is a theocracy or your definition is too loose to be of value.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This is pretty much why the USA would easily flip into a theocracy at the first incursion of Daemons.
And I, ironically, would argue that our faith would help prevent us from joining up with neo-fascist snake oil salesmen who promise to make the pain go away.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:In fact there have been debates to consider that the very preachy government under Bush was very theocratic.
And I would argue that’s conflicting a person guided by his religious principals which, unless you forbid office to theists, you can’t deny and theocracy. Overall I’d rate such claims as serious as those arguments of fascism.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:OK, I guess I didn't fully appreciate the value of the "".
Then we would have to define exactly what the inspiration is all about and what the results are. It may be too vague here.
If you want examples: Ron the Republican, due to his interpretations of his religion, proposes legislation against abortion. Danny the Democrat, due to his interpretations of his religion, pushes legislation to aid the poor. Or really anything, the point being any and all are placed for a vote without any special weighting because "God said so" and passed or not on its merits.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It is still completely irrevelant. We focus on the present system, not what it once was millennia ago, just as much as you don't judge the spiritual and juidicial mechanisms of the current Catholic dogma based on proto-christianity or whatever existed before that. Especially when we know it was a different beast.
It is very much relevant because the Emperor is the Emperor, he passed/created laws and customs which would be passed down and enforced even if he wasn't worshipped as a god. Which means your argument of "Lex imperialis still in effect=theocracy" is overly simplistic. That's like saying because the US has laws against murder and because the ten commandments, which US law was influenced by, speak out against murder the US must be a Theocracy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Probably a slightly weak form of it, but yes.
Then no nation really could pass your test. The very morality of the western world can be traced back to religion. So congratulations, we're all theocrats now. ;)
Mr. Oragahn wrote:There would be elements to add to make it a strong form of theocracy. The claim of infaillibility, a special link with said god in some fashion would definitely help, beyond mere faith which would be expected of any follower.
This would be your assumption and would largely be irrelevant. Even if the politician believed he was Washington reborn any measure would still have to passed by Congress, approved by the President and, if need be, verified of its constitutionality by the Judicial branch. Hence the distinction between Church and State and religious minded people, which I argue are needed for society to function, and a theocratic state.
Not to say that we do have evidence that the High Lords are considered in the light of God directly, and by this, always with his spirit.
If you are referring to your previous quote I found less it less than convincing.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That is basically what you'd hear any random description of Popes
A Pope does a little more than pray for guidance.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:What it was is of no importance, just as less as the form of the god wouldn't matter a nut as long as what is worshipped is of divine nature.
Yes it does. If the Emperor wasn't worshipped as a god but merely revered as a "great man" and instead the Ecclesiarchy worshipped a teakettle the basic structure of the IOM would be unchanged. The book of law and its enforcement, for all we know, would be unchanged. To me that suggest something worthy of consideration.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:It also takes a really bad faith to claim that if the world would be ruled by the Papacy, we couldn't call that a theocracy.
There is no bad faith and I haven't made any arguments regarding the Papacy. My argument is that the IOM in its civil/religious schism is similar to medieval Europe. The Papacy had no direct control in the various fiefdoms even if it was a powerful influence in people's lives.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I didn't say they give orders, I said they put obstacles.
And I would like examples. What structural, official obstacles can the "Church" put on the High Lords?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:They make general guidelines, sometimes go into detail (because the preachers still have at least one book to preach from so there obviously is a ton of material to follow).
Unless you have evidence to the contrary a preacher can't make guidelines or laws or rulings anymore than a medieval priest could. They simply have no official power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Besides, contrary to what you claim, preachers alone already have the power to hand heretics over to the Judges
The fact they would have to defer to Judges is proof they lack certain authorities.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:and this is clearly a form of authority that applies to all within the IoM safe for the obscure groups and the dready Inquisition
A kinda citizen's arrest? Show me where an Imperial Guard general has to defer structurally to a priest, as opposed to realpolitik, and I will readjust my argument. Until then I would say your grasping at straws.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Your analysis of the Imperium is not only stuck into reading too much about its past, but it is also way too formal.
I believe understanding the IOM's past is essential to understanding it in the current era and I make the distinction between structural policy and "office politices"/realpolitik. The latter can buoy a priest to power but it can also empower a governor or a war hero and is not inherent to any particular governmental system. Hence, for clarity, I prefer looking at the "base system".
Mr. Oragahn wrote:This is why you miss all facts that scream theocracy at every corner.
I would instead argue we merely have different ideas on what a theocracy is.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Interestingly, the two examples you gave a clearly subordinates of the Adeptus Terra, which on the hierarchy is about level with the Inquisition and the Church.
The "Adeptus Terra" is the government of the IOM. The "Church" has no political power but through the High Lords via its representative. The fact the "Church" formally isn't included in the Governmental structure, save for its representative in the high Lords, would be a point to me.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The first because it follows its own rules, the second most likely because it counts countless departments.
As do the space marines, the priesthood of Mars, etc. The IOM is a fairly loosely held together organization.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The caveat that deals with the Adeptus Sororitas even gives the Cult a theoretical access to half of the human population (minus the too young, the aged and the cripple).
Okay? How does that distract from the point the IOM has put obstacles in the way of the "Church" and if said "Church" became too militant for the High Lords' liking they might very well reconsider that "caveat"? Simply put the "Church" has power but is not THE power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The AS has its own fleets. It can even obtain its own seat in the Council at times.
So? I don't deny the "Church" or the Soroitas don't have power or influence. Merely that they are not the sole power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Not really; Vandire didn't defeat/"boss" the Ecclesiarchy, he literally took control of it, notably by kicking the Ecclesiarch out on charges of heresy: therefore a purely religious charge.
I believe I was referring to the little spat to kill Vandire after he assumed total power. He was, by that point, the "Church" and various representatives of the IOM forces waged war on him.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That is a direct acknowledgement of the power of the religious cult and is tantamount to its necessity and power, and that it's really meant to stay. Even S. Thor, the saviour and liberator, became the new Ecclesiarch.
That's splitting hairs. Thor was a priest, likely, who lead a "reformation" such as it was. The Space marines and , IIRC, priesthood of Mars on the other hand had less ethereal concerns against Vandire and opposed him. Which means one arm of the IOM said the "Church" was wrong and went to blows. Something you claimed couldn't happen.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:In "current" 40K, it has grown to the point of championing a need for a faith, and this faith is directly used to fuel spells which are the only tools known to defeat the most powerful Daemons.
Again I think we are talking at cross purposes. I have made arguments concerning Theocracy. Not about faith or religion in and of itself. But on the matter at hand it is an open question on if faith in the Big E is a "magic feather" or not. And considering what happened to Magnus for messing with warp magic I'm not sure spells are a good way to go. One wonders how far rigorous application of the scientific method and observance would go to understanding the ultra-dimensional non-corporeals which inhabited the Warp.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:No. You continually try to redefine the GEoM through his past nature while it is irrelevant, because the cult has made him a real god. As I repeatedly said now, there is no point using the outdated rules to analyze the current system.
I am trying to express a distinction and point I feel your are missing.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now he is messiah, saviour and god; it is under this current nature that one has to look at his words.
The longer you refuse to do that, the worse you understanding of the theocratic nature of the Imperium will be, and there is no point continuing, as it is totally irrelevant.
Yes now they believe he is god. And they try and follow his teachings and his words in their daily life, which may not be an iota different than when he was alive I might add, just as we all do. It doesn't matter if they think their founding principals came from the Big E, the Easter Bunny or anything else anymore than it matters that chunks of the US law code come from "religious teachings".

If the laws were enforced via divine authority I would concede the point but from all I can gather and know the big book of law is enforced as any other law even if not derived from the Big E. Brutal and bloody because the IOM is a hell hole but still a civil code.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You have not demonstrated that they had a normal life, nor that they were not in a state of decadence.
You have merely provided an example where a society had access to high technology (which is all relative, Chaos taint doesn't prevent from having several km large structures floating above the ground for all we know).
I have demonstrated they had a functioning society, one which had presumably existed for some previous time before the IOM showed up and likely would have continued to exist had they not exterminated by same. Frankly that is more than you have provided to support your case.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Were the Laer even linked to the warp as much as humans are?
In the absence of evidence it’s best not to assume either way.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Are we supposed to accept a whole pro-Chaos slant on the basis of some heavily extrapolated opinion about some marginally known group of aliens, non humanoid at that!? Preposterous!
You may accept or not accept whatever you wish. As for our debate I have presented evidence to support my position. You have presented nothing to support yours.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Let's remember the Eldars, for whom everything was fine and well in their lusty world until the day their gratuitous semen rains glued together a Chaos god.
The Eldar were far from “fine”, their entire society was enthralled to decadence and excess which led to the birth of a chaos god. And it should be noted they didn’t worship Chaos particularly, they were simply into hedonism so the failure of the Eldar is the failure of the Eldar not any one else’s.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I think basing our opinion on actual human societies afflicted by the Chaost plague has more merits.
If you have evidence to counter my position please present it. Otherwise I don't see the need to dig any deeper.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And yes, strangely enough, you have not brought evidence that a complacent happy populace could defend itself against Chaos monstrosities.
I have argued a content, happy society is less likely to risk it all making pacts with dark devils. Do you disagree? Is a wretch on some forgeworld, forgotten and discarded by the IOM, toiling in darkness and grime supposed to be less likely to say “frack you” to the world which shunned him? Certainly some vigilance is required through I prefer to encourage open worship and nip problems in their embryonic stage rather then let them fester in the darkness until they reach dangerous thresholds.

Or are you referring to defeating the various monstrosities which emerge from the Warp? Which would be dealt with by military forces not merely “complacent happy populace”?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Commissars aren't the leaders.
They are political officers. They definitely posses an unofficial leadership role, if they believe a commander is being too light hearted in his defense of the IOM they will "correct" matters.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Nor are the inquisition agents, who we've seen discuss about application of death through massive firepower and have to obtain sort of decrees to do so.
Inquisitors are practically a state within itself. They are answerable to virtually no one and if you have an example of them needing a decree in order to do something, as opposed merely asking the ship commander if he'd consent to bombard the desired area, I would like to see it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Reason isn't out of the loop when they take a decision, and decisions on Exterminatii aren't taken lightly.
In your opinion. The fact remains an Inquisitor has the absolute authority to issue an Exterminus and the only people who could, officially, call him on it would be another inquisitor. I consider that a tad bit dodgy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:A for the incompetence of governors, aren't we getting into a faulty generality here? If it were true, the Imperium would have been dead ages ago, as there's no way it could survive if all planets, the majority of them under the rule of governors, were not managed with a minimal amount of efficient anyway, even if by total dicks.
Firstly:

For the Emperor page 97 wrote:...The majority of planetary governorships are hereditary positions, and many incumbents aren't up to the challenge of the job.
Now it goes on to mention the really incompetent get weeded out by various coups and the like but that is hardly a shining example of efficient and smoothly operating governance.

Secondly being in a state of decay, corruption and collapse is pretty much the IOM’s motif. It is not supposed to be a functional state but rather a backwards, hobbled one.
Thirdly the IOM is a fictional organization. It exists because it sells goods for Games Workshops so it can be as incompetent as it wants and still continue. Indeed your argument is similar to the argument that the IOM must be good at war because otherwise they'd have been routed long ago, it just doesn't hold water.


Mr. Oragahn wrote:Worse, it still works and has shaped its ruling body's motto as to fit with the harsh realities.
The former is debatable. They waste time, effort and resources.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Everything that is against the Imperium has been raised to some ridiculously radical magnitude. You cannot fight that, especially over such a large territory, without sacrificing on certain things.
Well I generally think increased initiative from the lower berths and healthy dosages of federalism are the best tonic. Combined with bedrock principals of course.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You cannot reform society, have pompous political debates and bring in Human Rights (which are not a panacea btw) in such a state of despair and creep.
Well brutal authoritarian policies are also not a panacea. The IOM is still besieged by horrors and traitors. I merely advocate the path which requires me to expend the least amount of time and energy shooting my own people. Dead citizens don't work. Ostracized and angered citizens whom conspire against me are not productively adding to society.

Edit: Also I'm not sure I've advocated "pompous political debate" or even mandated that the society must be a democratic Republic, through I obviously am biased towards that governorship. Indeed a kingship, with constitutional restraint and protection towards its citizens, could suffice. There simply must be some avenue which the people can feel their grievances can be aired, that they a stake and voice in the great machine rather than merely being cogs.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You're forced into a war where millions will die by the truckloads and you don't even have time to organize yourself, even less to reform the whole society from the ground.
If I am to ask millions to lay down their lives it behooves me to make them feel they are investing in something worth such sacrifice. As for time, in such crisis I would argue it is paramount I choose the most efficient, most cost productive options rather than keeping it "dumb and simple".
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Millennia ago? yes. Not now. Too late, mate
Actually its funny you put such emphasis on time. The IOM is a very lethargic beast:
Imperial Guard codex page 7 wrote:A plea for military aid may come to the ears of the Imperium, but not be acted upon for months, years or even decades. Such requests typically make their way through countless adepts before finally reaching the hands of who can sanction suitable action, sitting at a dimly lit pulpit-station many hundreds of light years away
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Absurd.
When Chaos offers only senseless gore, rivers of puss, mazes of mental twist, sick appendages and pain, there's clearly something wrong in humans who want to get there instead of wanting to remain as close as possible to the perfection incarnated by the Holy God Emperor. ;)
Well much as I favor the human form I do believe that avoids my point. That both the IOM and Chaos have no interest in me but for how I can serve their goals. Therefore why should I have any particular loyalty to the IOM?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:He just happened to have a link to the Warp stronger than any human's, and thus being in the best position to know what awaited humanity outside.
Considering, due to his actions, humanity was made ill prepared to handle the concept of chaos and therefore vulnerable, that he, or representatives carrying out his policy, squandered and destroyed peaceful Xeno and human cultures such as the Interex who could have been an benefit and whose metahuman “sons” formed the lynchpin of the whole heresy I really don’t see this “best position” you speak of.
Not to mention that is a rather flippant dismissal of a fairly unsavory character.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yeah, so I must take the word of some suicidal Chaos adept now. :P
ROFL
If you mean me I am neither suicidal or particularly fond of Chaos. I consider them a rank evil on par with the Big E.

But to the point there is little to no evidence what awaits the "souls" of good little imperials. Belief that the Big E will save you is, at the end of the day, just that. A faith rather than any scientifically derived fact. You are certainly entitled to believe in it but I am not mandated to find that a logical argument.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:You can live well, very well, in a dictatorship, as long as you're on the right side.
The criteria this time are quite generous, because you have to be a human and fight for mankind
Actually much more stringent than that. You could be enslaved to work at a bureaucracy or factory. Be drafted to die in some god forsaken war a thousand light years from home or struggle for survival in the slums of some city planet. Being human, even of hundred percent pure stock, is far from enough to assure you live "well, very well".
And if you find yourself on the wrong side of the divide…things don’t look up.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:No. I'm saying there are trade offs, nothing is perfect, but the IoM doesn't have the luxury to rearrange itself.
And I'm saying the IOM shouldn't have been built as it was in the first place, that it is poorly equipped to handle the problems it has to face.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Would it attempt anything, it would crumble.
That would only reinforce Chaos and make things harder for the humanity that didn't go down the drain.
It’s already going down the drain, merely in slow motion. Better to act and save what we can than have everyone die.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The cabal's projections fail on both sides. Nothing says that their projections were correct or the only ones.
Unless you have evidence their basic assumption was flawed it stands, and that is all there is to it. Simply put humans being humans, giving off all our unchecked emotions, are what the dark gods need. Worship and individual souls are just gravy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Humanity proved to be a little nuisance when it was small and isolated on Terra. It also proved to be good and powerful as united under the GEOM.
I would argue the IOM is not “good and powerful” against Chaos. Indeed in many ways it acts as the greatest monument/offering to Nurgle{Decay/defiance}, Korne{Bloodlust/Warfare} and tzeentch{Change/Hope}. Likely even Slannessh with the decadence of the “royal families”.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Most seriously, the best way such a thing could happen would be through the use of a poison doubled with some euphoric and sleeping drug, spread across entire worlds, especially the worst ones.
People would either die by millions or billions or become sterile, although the former would be better.
It's already a dramatic and harsh "solution" here, but the best to do is avoid resent, pain and sadness.
Remnant humanity would regroup and coalesce into better combat units over simpler territorial zones.
Okay...I would consider that a rather alarming waste of resources. Not only in developing poisons to use against my own population , the material lost and left behind as you regressed from worlds but the sheer sacrifice of manpower which is the most important asset we can leverage.
Not to mention nothing breaks trust between people and government like trying to kill them.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:So yes, hello to our grimdark setting, there is nothing you can do about it.
Again I feel like the argument has shifted. Previously we were talking about how, if demons erupted into existence, the IOM was the only logical outcome. Now you shifted it to the IOM after its been burying itself for ten thousand years which I feel isn't a small departure.

Still the basic situation isn't that bad. Cleaning house and enacting reforms from both top down and bottom up, ditch the quasi-religious dogma, initiate inroads to streamline and improve the Guard, you could make some head way. You just gotta have faith. ;)

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