Re: The second nuTrek movie : Into Dorkness
Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:25 pm
Trek nolife nerds vote STID worst Trek movie ever, Pegg replies "fuck you"
Guy has a point. A huge one.
Guy has a point. A huge one.
Starfleet Jedi Forum
Worst Trek movie? I'd personally give that to ST:Nemesis. While Into Dorkness (love the thread title still) isn't ranked high on my list I wouldn't by any respects call it the worst trek movie. I'd rate it at 9/12... but definitely not #12.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Trek nolife nerds vote STID worst Trek movie ever, Pegg replies "fuck you"
Guy has a point. A huge one.
You can read it that way if you try, but I think it's a lot more plausible to take it at face value. Khan goes off the rails thinking his people are dead, Carol Marcus goes off on her own, and the admiral seizes the opportunity to try to get a shooting war kicked off on his schedule instead of the Klingons'.2046 wrote:I googled to try to figure out what the crap was going on with the Marcus/Khan plan, and found this:
http://badassdigest.com/2013/09/11/how- ... acy-movie/
It's good to know I am not the only one who found it a little silly. Basically, it seems to me that the only moment when we can be sure Khan isn't working for Marcus is right when and immediately before he head-smashes Marcus.
So it seems that the daughter-saving, the bombing, the crappy chopper attack, the escape to Kronos, the poorly done Enterprise sabotage and the planned cruise-torpedo attack . . . this was all part of an entirely convoluted plot by Marcus and, to an extent, Khan, except Khan went through with it knowing he'd planted his crew in the torpedoes, but was surprised that Kirk had them. Presumably he did not know that the torpedoes were the final move in that part of the plot, but in any case it seems Khan had no real plan to rescue them. After all, you don't go on a vacation to the Ketha lowlands when your favorite people are hidden in the bullets of a trigger-happy madman.
But that's the problem . . . at face value, it was a series of disjointed events whose only significant connection was that it generally included the same irrational characters.Jedi Master Spock wrote:
You can read it that way if you try, but I think it's a lot more plausible to take it at face value.
But that's not a plot. That's a conected collection of people all going in their own directions.Khan goes off the rails thinking his people are dead, Carol Marcus goes off on her own, and the admiral seizes the opportunity to try to get a shooting war kicked off on his schedule instead of the Klingons'.
That's insane in the context of being a plan.Why are things not going according to plan?
1. The admiral is in the room when the shooting starts. There's a lot of firepower being thrown around indiscriminately, broken glass, etc. So, for that matter, are Kirk, Pike, and any other potential starship captains he might be thinking of using. Lots of people die in that sequence, I believe - just not many important named ones. That rifle Kirk picked up belonged to a living security person first.
So he's risking his own neck and also insuring that he has to use an unknown quantity.
Again, this makes Bond villains look sensible.2. Tracing the beam-out is a Scotty thing. There is little guarantee, after the violent response by Starfleet Security - and Kirk, as it so happens - that the transwarp transporter would be recovered intact, let alone by someone who knew what it was and knew how it worked.
That's assuming they even had that issue in this timeline/universe. And why go to a totally alien world at all? This isn't Snowden being welcomed by Russia, this is self-exile to not-even-terra incognita, alone.Fleeing to QonoS makes a certain amount of sense for Khan... especially since he might be able to rig himself up to pass as an Augment-virus afflicted Klingon.
Isn't that exactly what he does? Kirk is the patsy and like any good patsy has to be killed. He's a willing participant since, with Pike's death, Kirk is ticked off and after being relieved is looking to get in good graces . . . by this rationale, Pike was the actual target of the chopper attack. But in principle, any other ticked off young captain would have sufficed, it's juat that Kirk was the best candidate at the time.Conversely, only a very special of a Starfleet officer would comply with blatantly illegal orders risking starting a war with the Klingons by shooting at their homeworld, so the admiral can't count on having a patsy to perform the act.
This was definitely a surprise to all.Carol Marcus could easily have died. Her presence wasn't part of some crazy Xanatos gambit, it was unplanned.
Yes, but this is exactly what I was saying and what the other guy talking about Orci the 9/11 truther nut was saying. Everything was going somewhat according to plan except for Carol Marcus, which means we must assess the plan as it would've gone without her involvement. And when we do so, we find that it is insane.And with her presence being unplanned, everything that follows from it? Also unplanned.
I never suspected that this was part of any plan.That Kirk would have an "inside man" in system to disable the dreadnought at a key moment? Not at all something that could be counted on.
I think the conspiracy-theorist take on exactly how deep and complicated the plot goes is squirrelly.
I don't think that's a bad way to take this movie. I think you mostly agree with me that Khan being still on the admiral's side and the entire thing being a big giant complex devious plan up until Khan clocks the admiral would require that the plan be completely insane and irrational in the first place.2046 wrote:But that's the problem . . . at face value, it was a series of disjointed events whose only significant connection was that it generally included the same irrational characters.
I just don't see any way for it to make any sense whatsoever without conspiracist nuttery, unless we are supposed to take this movie as a farce about the land of the blind with the Enterprise crew being one-eyed men.
Two questions; I have two answers.Why did Khan go to the Klingon homeworld? Sure, it is suggested that he went there because it is the one place he thought Starfleet couldn't go, but that is extremely flimsy. Khan is a 20th Century superman who gets used while the Admiral holds his people hostage. He gets access to his people, hides them in a war-mongerers missiles, then makes a half-hearted attempt to kill the Admiral and runs away to a likely missile target and from any hope of being able to save his people permanently?