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The second nuTrek movie : Into Dorkness 
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Jedi Master

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Trinoya wrote:
I do what I can.
I think you might agree with this criticism of the Abrams Star Trek movies.
http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/ ... kness.html?

Trinoya wrote:
While entirely true that we don't see what was going on from their perspective this is an era when the klingons were not known for their honor, and certainly didn't seem to be demonstrating it in the movie when they actually do try to play it. Nonetheless I really doubt the Klingons wouldn't have interfered at the point they were at (Honestly I would have liked to see them interfere since it would have really shown that there was a real threat of war).
1) Why would the Klingons do anything from the point of view we saw the movie from? All the Klingons had was some Starfleet personnel trying to covertly capture of kill a criminal who had fled to Klingon soil without the Klingons knowing. At best the Klingons would know something odd was happening.

In any case, the Klingons had no real reason to go after Kirk. They had all the evidence they would need if they wanted war, and would likely know who the Starfleet personnel were or be able to easily find out who were involved.

We don't know the exact political pressures the Klingons have to deal with. It's generally a bad idea to go running out for blood do to the actions of a tiny group, and the Klingons can not deal with everyone being out for their blood.

2)I don't know where you got the idea the Klingons were ever an extremely honorable people in Star Trek? They like to talk honor a lot, but it is really only Worf who lived up to the Klingon ideal.



Trinoya wrote:
When a major part of the plot is for them to get discovered to cause a war and we then see no klingon response at all I'd say it did matter to the story. Roboadmirals plan looses a lot of credibility.
It all works to paint the admiral as rather paranoid if not truly insane, but even then the plan called for an unprovoked attack on the Klingon capital to start the war.

What Kirk ended up down was perhaps a slap in the face to the Klingons, but going after Kirk or the Enterprise would not have served any purpose. The only practical thing the Klingons could do was file a complaint with someone above Kirk. From what we see the situation likely similar to the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R., or North Korea and South Korea. You do not take the step from cold war to hot war lightly.


Trinoya wrote:
I did not mean to imply it wasn't warp capable, but it is small enough to fit in their shuttle bay so I figured calling it a shuttle would be more appropriate. It doesn't really matter for the point I was making. It goes straight to the homeworld, they kill a bunch of klingons, then they take off again even though security forces should have been all over them (or at the very least in pursuit).
For all we know the Klingons were watching the entire thing in cloaked ships.

The guy Kirk and company were after was the guy who killed the Klingons. Odds are they aren't going to be out for Kirk's blood, and may want to keep it quiet that someone was able to get to and hide on their capital.

Old Star Trek had standard ships able to go to warp in an Earth like atmosphere.

Ultimately none of the above is relevant to the story. We don't know what the Klingons did or why because we only see the story from the main character's points of view. What the Klingons did or didn't do is irrelevant to the story.

Trinoya wrote:
This presumes the Klingons are aware that the enterprise is in trouble, and that they would have the honor to not just attack, something the klingons of this era (and even universe) have not demonstrated, and something that wouldn't be an obstacle (considering the incursion and attack on their people).
I fail to recall an example of a ship in Star Trek not being easily identified as not being functional. We are talking about major systems like warp drives not working here. The warp drive not working would be very hard to hide.

If what you suggest about Federation/Klingon relations was true then the admiral's plan would not have required an unprovoked attack on the Klingon capital. As it stands the admiral seems to have become overly paranoid.


Trinoya wrote:
Khan came from earth in the 1990s. Unless otherwise stated the only difference between OTL khan and this one is cosmetic. His feats, as well as OTL khans feats, should both apply to one another as the incursion into the timeline doesn't occur until the Kelvin Incident, unless we presume all the other timeline incidents are also completely altered by this going all the way back to the formation of life of Earth... but that just seems like a stretch by any imagination (and honestly ruins all of 'nutrek' for me in one swoop).
PTL Khan never demonstrated superhuman abilities anywhere near the level of NTL Khan. NTL Khan is physically at least an equal to NTL Spock in every way, but OTL Khan was barely above OTL Kirk in capabilities.

All the characters have subtle but notable differences between NTL and PTL that I do not believe can be accounted for simply by the Kelvin incident. What ever caused the two time lines to differ seems to have happened before Khan was created, but given the large number of time travel events shown in the PTL there are many possibilities.


Trinoya wrote:
It isn't stated on screen to be rare, and no one knew of a lot of things regarding augments as the knowledge (per enterprise) was suppressed to an extremely large degree. We had them specifically state on screen the reason they couldn't remove people from the pods is it could kill them and that would have been a reasonable explanation for why they needed khans magical blood specifically...

You know, until they removed one of them from the pod anyway.
They never said they couldn't wake the augments from what I recall. It was that they were unfamiliar with the cryogenic technology do to it falling into disuse.


Trinoya wrote:
Man, sucks they risked that.
When? Bones made sure the augments never woke up.


Trinoya wrote:
I don't question that they could still be moving... but moving so fast as to clear a good fraction of the earth/moon distance (while still moving slow enough to not break apart against the atmosphere, as well as have time to recover?). The science remains bad, and lazy, especially considering they could have just had them stop in orbit of Earth... or had them fall to the moon instead, or any number of other thematic decisions. The writers went a specific direction, the effects team went a specific direction, and ultimately gave us a scene that makes little to no sense. So we have lazy writing, lazy effects, and a lazy production team who can't work together it seems. Not the first thing in trek to suffer from that certainly, but considering I complain when it happens in other trek movies and shows as well I'm not going to give them a pass.
Trinoya wrote:
The information they give still doesn't add up, and considering how big a scene it is, how much of the movie it encompasses, and how critical it was to their film so as to even be a center piece on the production art... yeah, I'm calling them lazy, they could have fixed it at any point, replacing the moon in a shot with Earth wouldn't be difficult.
This is seemingly a constant of Star Trek, and has seemingly always been so. Run the numbers for the reaction times needed to perform "Titan's Turn", or look at the beginning of "Timeless", or look at the Time Barrier talked about in "The Cage", and that ignores humans reacting to weapons that travel at nearly the speed of light if not faster. Either everyone is superhumanly fast, or there is temporal manipulation technology on Star Trek star ships.

For this sort of thing to suddenly be a problem for you is rather silly because it has been there for a long time in both directions.

Trinoya wrote:
Vulcan wasn't demonstrated to be hours away in the previous movie (which is the point I'm making on distance/speed), and I would presume that New Vulcan isn't considering the real time communication with Spock even though they had communication problems. Someone, somewhere, could have had a ship to them in seconds from Mars, or Jupiter, or even the moon or earth.
Here is the problem, we do not know how long the Enterprise was traveling in either NTL movie. Hours is simply the bare minimum, and we have the example of the NX-01 traveling to the Klingon capital in a few days, and it was slower then Kirk's ship.

All we know for certain is that Spock had time to research the lovely and mysterious weapons expert, and figure out who she really was, but all this really tells us is that time was passing between cuts, and the trip was not happening in real times.

It is rather convenient for the Starfleet admiral in charge of the sector and carrying out an illegal plan to start a war with the Klingons that no one was able to come to help the Enterprise. It's almost like someone wanted there to be no one who could come and save the day if there was some sort of battle near Earth


Trinoya wrote:
I would have loved to have seen those orders, or have him at least say, "Kirk.. now really, do you think I wouldn't have lied and given orders to not make my plan work?"
I don't think it needed to be stated verbally. As you noted there was no one in the Sol system that was able to help the Enterprise.


Trinoya wrote:
It still doesn't change the apparent time frames involved or the bad writing/effects chosen though.
This os nothing new to Star Trek or Sci-Fi movies in general. It really shouldn't bug you.


Trinoya wrote:
Would have been great to have any other starship get involved then...
But that would have interfered with the Admiral's plans.


Trinoya wrote:
That any number of individuals, from section 31 to spock, should have been able to just beam aboard to help (or at least beam the crew off to safety when they were approaching earth). Although technically I can see this not being a plot hole. There are no other ships anywhere because starfleet has only a handful of them left, and I have no reason to presume starfleet in this universe has a transporter on anything other than starships considering their total absence on any non-vehicle.


So I'll just have to presume starfleet has virtually no ships, no captains with the foresight to make a decision to intervene, the security of a kidergarten class, and the military intelligence of Mexico circa 1899 in regards to the protection of Sol, and the response readiness of a drunken cat in a fire helmet during the Sanfransico Earthquake in 1906.


I don't think I like that option better than just presuming it's a plot hole though.
Or there were no other ships in range do to the Admiral wanting to start a war, and both the Vengeance and Enterprise being badly damaged. It also is shown in the last movie to be difficult to beam to or from moving objects even when you know where they are.


Trinoya wrote:
It is unrealistic. Presuming no total corruption of the timeline (IE: Wiping everything that ever happened in Enterprise and prior to it) Earth has been attacked three times now, and Vulcan had been destroyed... They should have long since taken some security measures to prevent a decapitation strike from ruining their day...
In order to exploit the meeting you must first know where it will be, when it will be, and then be able to attack in the limited amount of time that the meeting will be taking place. You basically need to be privy to top secret information, or one of the people who is suppose to be at the meeting.


Trinoya wrote:
As I said, my use of the word shuttle is in error, but the klingons still shouldn't have any difficult pursuing it. I have also not asserted they were limited to sub-light.
The problem is that we don't know what the Klingons did, and at least in the PTL they made heavy use of cloaks.


Trinoya wrote:
Because their enemy just parked two ships on your boarder, one clearly a warship, the other clearly dispatching other craft into your territory and it was all part of the admirals plan in the first place? I could presume that the Klingons really didn't want a war (which is counter intuitive to their actions in the OTL, but they did supposedly loose a fleet) but it still doesn't explain the total no reaction. It's just another thing not explained or touched upon and that doesn't fit in with the established story they were going for... They could have even had the klingons RESCUE the enterprise from the vengeance (giving them the time to get away) or any number of other scenarios to play up the admirals plan not working... I digress, as I said I'm trying to avoid speculation and handwavium as much as possible. I personally would have expected a response, any response, and since none is given, even though Kirk is entirely freaked out about one and the Admirals plan rests upon it, I am left with a hanging plot hole, albeit a small one, but one that still nags at the end of the day.
And it was made clear that simply flying into the neutral zone would not start a war. If that was the case then there would be no reason to fire the Torpedos.

The Prime time line is not the new time line. Things were different before Khan was even created, and the Narada ripped the Klingons a new one shortly before destroying Vulcan.

You keep saying there was no reaction by the Klingons, but you do not know this. Why do the Klingons need to do anything on screen? Not reacting on screen does not equal not reacting.

I do agree that the Klingons acting on the Enterprise's behalf would have been a nice touch, but the Klingons behaving passively and not appearing at all makes the admiral's belief that much harder to take seriously, or that he was trying to kick the Klingons while they were down.


Trinoya wrote:
They had enough information to know he went to the klingon homeworld and get a general idea of where... Since no one brings up transporters at all it seems a bit odd.

"Sir, why don't we send in an extraction team to go get him, transwarp transporters could let us get in and out with less chance of detection"

"no, we can't risk that technology falling into their hands. Even khans transporter was left behind."

Done, a throwaway line would solve another plot hole.
The characters are angry, scared, and did not have time to carefully think things through until they were pretty much already there.

How would the extraction team get home? You seem to have forgotten the transporter does not seem to go with the person being transported.


Trinoya wrote:
They were, supposedly, members of section 31, a super intelligence agency and a branch of starfleet, just because you don't have the uniform doesn't mean much.
I don't recall this ever being stated, and hired guns are nothing new to Star Trek


Trinoya wrote:
You still need people to conduct operations, pilot shuttles, land them, etc. They could have departed with a small crew, but you would expect them to notice the full mass of an extra shuttle landing on board. Even the connie in the previous timeline could detect the heartbeats of every crew member.

Really, at the end of the day it's just reeks of bad security. It'd be like walking into a hanger with a new fighter project going on at area 51 and then just hobnobbing about for a bit.
This isn't true in the real world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shadow_(IX-529)

Everything you say they needed people to do could have been done by the crew we saw on the Vengeance, and it appears the small number of people involved was the reason the project was secret.

Given how easily Scotty sneaked in, security seems to have been poor once someone knew about the place, but you almost had to know the place was there first. It doesn't hurt that Scotty just happened to show up when the largest possible hole in their security was presenting itself.

Trinoya wrote:
Khan did not have a light skin tone.
And where are you getting this information from?


Trinoya wrote:
You're dodging the issue I presented. I don't care if the female korean from Gangnam Style played Khan as long as they said, "yeah, we totally gave him a make over and now he is FABULOUS!"
I'm not dodging anything because there is nothing to dodge. There is no reason for any of this to have come up. Your complaint is just silly.


Trinoya wrote:
Part of it is. The other part is that it is so trivially easy to fix so many of these holes that I can't forgive them for existing in the first place. As an action science fiction flick all of these are forgivable.
And completely unimportant bogs down the story. What you call plot wholes are just unimportant details you would have liked fleshed out more, but if they didn't flesh out the details how you would have liked it then you would be complaining about that. Had they fleshed things out more you would likely be complaining about how they wasted time on unimportant details, and how it took away from the story.


Trinoya wrote:
That doesn't revoke my point that it had plot holes that ruined it as a trek movie for me.
For something to be a plot hole it needs to be relevant to the plot. What you seem to be complaining about are non-plot relevant details.


Trinoya wrote:
You'll need to forgive me on this one: I am at work and do not have access to Youtube.
Star Trek Wars - Nightwish music video
Star Trek isn't many what many people think. Perhaps this would have been the better franchise to name 'Star Wars'...
(Video clips of starship battles)
See? Star Trek has lots of explosions, battles, wars etc. Not quite Roddenbarry's vision of the future, is it?
You can't be at work 24/7.


Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:32 am
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Trek nolife nerds vote STID worst Trek movie ever, Pegg replies "fuck you"

Guy has a point. A huge one.


Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:25 pm
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Worst of the bunch?
When compared to the borefest that was TMP, or the craploads that were TFF and INS?
Generation and Nemesis were better than STiD?
Yeah, stupid vote is stupid...


Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:14 am
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Isn't it criminal to make a Trek movie that is actually watchable?


Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:22 pm
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*A wild trinoya appears!* Whoa, been away for some time folks, sorry about that! I'd been lurking in the trek wars section on rare occasions but I've mostly been over at spacebattles in my free time away from my job (I was pulling 90 hour weeks, not cool).



Worst Trek movie? I'd personally give that to ST:Nemesis. While Into Dorkness (love the thread title still) isn't ranked high on my list I wouldn't by any respects call it the worst trek movie. I'd rate it at 9/12... but definitely not #12.


Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:46 am
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Nah, Final Frontier was worse than Nemesis.


Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:43 am
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So I finally have seen Into Darkness, hot on the heels of having watched Gravity.

I was well-spoiled from when STID came out, though it's been awhile so the spoilers and complaints weren't fresh on my mind. But still, it was overall pretty silly, but as with the other new one it tries to move fast enough to cover the plot holes, not always successfully. (Perhaps even not often.)

There were some well-executed scenes, such as the wordless scenes around the daughter thing. I also enjoyed the 3D view of the area around the bombing in an NSA sort of way. And the aliens of Nibiru or whatever that place was, and also the red plantlife, was very well done and more appreciated than the usual bumpy-headed Hollywood actors either on a stage full of greens or on an exterior set somewhere near Hollywood. The fact that they decided to open the torpedo off of the ship was a nice touch, though a shuttle would've sufficed.

But there were also some odd bits, like the focus on the bag that Khan had which seemed to be a question that was then left unanswered (or was that the transporter?), or why Khan's chopper attack with miniguns was so poorly executed, or why he beamed to the Ketha lowlands (nice nod to a previously mentioned place, by the way), or why the abandoned area was so inordinately built up, or why the sabotage of the warp drive was executed so early, or why . . .

Okay, yeah.

Suffice it to say that the movie does not stand up to scrutiny much at all.

For instance, they decide to violate the Prime Directive and Spock takes on the mission, and he's going to die because they lose the zip cord and can only beam line-of-sight. Okay, fine . . . send another shuttle, since we know they have transporters. But instead they raise the Enterprise which is hiding for no apparent reason in the sea, which means they weren't in line-of-sight at orbital height, and they know good and well that the natives are nearby. And they don't even bother to try to make a cloud or anything using seawater to cloak their maneuver.

Standard operating procedure in the event of certain activities is to have all of the brass meet in a particular room with windows and no security around the building.

And, of course, Scotty magically gets aboard the super-secret ship in the super-secret shipyard that is in orbit of Jupiter, probably visible from higher end personal telescopes by that point. He can do this because the super-secret base doesn't seem to have any capacity to detect random ships dropping by and just falling in line with a shuttle convoy approaching from another direction entirely, nor was he challenged at all upon landing.

The dedicated warship (as if to suggest that the Enterprise is not such a thing) is, for some reason, huge-mongous, as opposed to the Defiant precedent.

And the big bad boogeyman of the Klingon Empire where the fear is that they will start a war? The Klingons can scarcely defend their own planet . . . the confiscated civilian ship is not even challenged until it is within the atmosphere of Kronos.

As far as who was doing what to whom insofar as Marcus vs. Khan and who had what plans when, I really lost track. Was Marcus planning to have Khan go to Kronos and then receive his 72 supermen and they were then to attempt to take the planet? That might've been a nifty idea, however silly. Either way, giving the Klingon Empire to the supermen is a bad plan, just like Kirk giving Khan the Vengeance.

As far as the super-blood thing, I'm not worried about that having any relevance to the prime universe, since these augments are, in my view, completely removed from those of the prime timeline, and need not be anything similar, for the same reason that I don't think that is our Spock.


Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:03 pm
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I googled to try to figure out what the crap was going on with the Marcus/Khan plan, and found this:

http://badassdigest.com/2013/09/11/how- ... acy-movie/

It's good to know I am not the only one who found it a little silly. Basically, it seems to me that the only moment when we can be sure Khan isn't working for Marcus is right when and immediately before he head-smashes Marcus.

So it seems that the daughter-saving, the bombing, the crappy chopper attack, the escape to Kronos, the poorly done Enterprise sabotage and the planned cruise-torpedo attack . . . this was all part of an entirely convoluted plot by Marcus and, to an extent, Khan, except Khan went through with it knowing he'd planted his crew in the torpedoes, but was surprised that Kirk had them. Presumably he did not know that the torpedoes were the final move in that part of the plot, but in any case it seems Khan had no real plan to rescue them. After all, you don't go on a vacation to the Ketha lowlands when your favorite people are hidden in the bullets of a trigger-happy madman.

By the way, how did Sulu manage to direct a transmission to Khan while he was on the Klingon homeworld? Did I miss something where he'd published his phone number in the Klingon white pages?

And didn't Marcus beam his daughter through shields?


Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:21 pm
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Who really wrote that movie?


Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:26 pm
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So, I watched that movie, at last.

It's not bad. I mean, from an entertainment point of view, if you can ignore some odd plot points (neutral zone being like, erm, visible from Kronos and the moon jammed into the planet (WTF physics ???), or the Enterprise falling to Earth just because while the moon never seems to, and the VENGEANCE grazing her, the utter lack of protection of Fed HQ, or how one can so easily visit Kronos in the middle of a warming cold war... it's quite a beautiful work.

It turns out that even if the plot fails to be "original", I see why it went that way with the parallelal course. A sort of WHAT IF?
From there, we get to understand why Spock snaps. The movie literally pulls his human part over the vulcan one, and it's easy to understand how the destruction of his own world, with the death of his mother right in front of his eyes, would have given birth to a volcano awaiting the right moment to pop.
Add that Kirk probably being the only thing close to a real friend that nuSpock ever had, and I think that the entire emotional roller coaster he goes through to be really believable.

All sets were stunning, the final city chase, civilian vehicles design, places, all... amazing, truly.
Oh. OH!!
That starship porn, really. It felt so good. Mmm...
Enterprise everywhere, yummy, Enterprise rises from the ocean, Enterprise leaves the space station, Enterprise rises from the clouds, Enterprise goes at warp with her Mighty Blue Trails (thanks to Orgasm Nacelle tech), Vengeance smashes into water and into buildings, it's fantastic.
Vengeance riding and raping cute Enterprise at warp, from behind. I could almost feel it, oh boy. :3
Did you notice? They really love showing people being sucked out into space... at warp... by bits.
They don't even need to be redshirts, and you even manage to feel something about them... how they scream, etc.
God bless modern CGI when it's done well. Pure coolness at its apex and franly I loved it.

Khan was brillantly played, he kicked arse when weilding both a pulse gun and the heavy phaser cannon on Kronos.
Pike's death was top class.
There were some good lines between all characters. A bit too much 90120 at times, but I think in reality, that's the kind of stuff that might happen. Although not on a military ship. Hence "we're explorers".

The messed up artificial gravity was a clever excuse to have some typically absurd Galaxy Quest-like danger zones in the starship (how corridors turn into death pits). At least we didn't get a silly theme park water sliding tube sequence like in the first movie.

Fuck, ALL former Trek movies really look like shit in comparison, to be honest.

This can only bode well for the future Star Wars movies. Oh man, the lightsabre action... ohlala! *^-^*


Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:28 pm
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Oh, one more point that kinda bothered me. To borrow RLM's words, if the first movie made a special effort about proving the "not gay" aspect, that one really pushed the enveloppe hard on the "not racist" side of things.
They literally shoehorned one original black person in about every possible group shot available. When not possible, you'd get an Asian, and when that would fail -yes, it would happen- you'd at least get an alien... not a mexican one, I mean one from space (the alien, non-Earth... OK ???).
Seriously guys, we do get it, not that dense, thanks : Federation, happy friends, sex with aliens, yeah yeah. But that was literally over the top!


Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:52 pm
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2046 wrote:
I googled to try to figure out what the crap was going on with the Marcus/Khan plan, and found this:

http://badassdigest.com/2013/09/11/how- ... acy-movie/

It's good to know I am not the only one who found it a little silly. Basically, it seems to me that the only moment when we can be sure Khan isn't working for Marcus is right when and immediately before he head-smashes Marcus.

So it seems that the daughter-saving, the bombing, the crappy chopper attack, the escape to Kronos, the poorly done Enterprise sabotage and the planned cruise-torpedo attack . . . this was all part of an entirely convoluted plot by Marcus and, to an extent, Khan, except Khan went through with it knowing he'd planted his crew in the torpedoes, but was surprised that Kirk had them. Presumably he did not know that the torpedoes were the final move in that part of the plot, but in any case it seems Khan had no real plan to rescue them. After all, you don't go on a vacation to the Ketha lowlands when your favorite people are hidden in the bullets of a trigger-happy madman.

You can read it that way if you try, but I think it's a lot more plausible to take it at face value. Khan goes off the rails thinking his people are dead, Carol Marcus goes off on her own, and the admiral seizes the opportunity to try to get a shooting war kicked off on his schedule instead of the Klingons'.

Why are things not going according to plan?

1. The admiral is in the room when the shooting starts. There's a lot of firepower being thrown around indiscriminately, broken glass, etc. So, for that matter, are Kirk, Pike, and any other potential starship captains he might be thinking of using. Lots of people die in that sequence, I believe - just not many important named ones. That rifle Kirk picked up belonged to a living security person first.

So he's risking his own neck and also insuring that he has to use an unknown quantity.

2. Tracing the beam-out is a Scotty thing. There is little guarantee, after the violent response by Starfleet Security - and Kirk, as it so happens - that the transwarp transporter would be recovered intact, let alone by someone who knew what it was and knew how it worked.

Fleeing to QonoS makes a certain amount of sense for Khan... especially since he might be able to rig himself up to pass as an Augment-virus afflicted Klingon. Conversely, only a very special of a Starfleet officer would comply with blatantly illegal orders risking starting a war with the Klingons by shooting at their homeworld, so the admiral can't count on having a patsy to perform the act.

Most of Kirk's officers registered objections to the plan as illegal from the get-go. Kirk knew the orders were illegal. Very few Starfleet captains would have fulfilled that. See #1. If Khan was still working for the admiral and this was all a deep plan, the admiral would have needed to have his loose cannon tucked away somewhere else so he didn't die. Kirk almost died anyway, and if you can predict anything, it's that Kirk would risk his neck trying to take down the choppa.

3. Carol. The admiral absolutely could not rely on someone on the Enterprise surviving any of this. The Klingons could have intercepted them going in; traced where the shuttle came from; and there were lots of fiery bloody deaths during the initial attack. Carol Marcus could easily have died. Her presence wasn't part of some crazy Xanatos gambit, it was unplanned.

And with her presence being unplanned, everything that follows from it? Also unplanned.

4. The engine sabotage going off when it did can be chalked up to Chekov screwing up the engines and the Enterprise being much slower than expected. If I'm not greatly mistaken, the plan was for the Enterprise to stall after firing the torpedoes. At which point, because the torpedoes' trajectory would point right at their position, the Klingons could be expected to come swarming.

5. That Kirk would have an "inside man" in system to disable the dreadnought at a key moment? Not at all something that could be counted on. There's no predicting the outcome of Scotty and Kirk's confrontation, or Scotty deciding, in the midst of DUIing with a shuttle, to join a construction crew.

And, given the presence of that "inside man," that the sabotage wouldn't have more lethal consequences for the admiral.



Of course, I wouldn't put it past Khan to have guessed the Admiral's plan. It all hangs together much better as a plot if we bear in mind that Khan is a masterful opportunist; but the admiral has to know that he's going to get one or another opportunity to start a war with the Klingons.

Setting up the resident loose cannon to die a bloody martyr's death is a brilliant three-birds-with-one-stone plan... the sort that an inferior unethical improviser comes up under stress.

It's a movie that's very light on technical detail and consistency while having a complicated plot, but I think the conspiracy-theorist take on exactly how deep and complicated the plot goes is squirrelly. Khan's a brilliant opportunist, the admiral thought he was a brilliant opportunist and screwed up a bunch of different ways, and Carol wandered into it all under her own power - forging fake orders from her dad.

If I'm remembering the line right, she didn't actually have legit orders, and her father could have given her legit orders. Right?


Sun Dec 01, 2013 6:08 am
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Jedi Master Spock wrote:

You can read it that way if you try, but I think it's a lot more plausible to take it at face value.


But that's the problem . . . at face value, it was a series of disjointed events whose only significant connection was that it generally included the same irrational characters.

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Khan goes off the rails thinking his people are dead, Carol Marcus goes off on her own, and the admiral seizes the opportunity to try to get a shooting war kicked off on his schedule instead of the Klingons'.


But that's not a plot. That's a conected collection of people all going in their own directions.

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Why are things not going according to plan?

1. The admiral is in the room when the shooting starts. There's a lot of firepower being thrown around indiscriminately, broken glass, etc. So, for that matter, are Kirk, Pike, and any other potential starship captains he might be thinking of using. Lots of people die in that sequence, I believe - just not many important named ones. That rifle Kirk picked up belonged to a living security person first.

So he's risking his own neck and also insuring that he has to use an unknown quantity.


That's insane in the context of being a plan.

Quote:
2. Tracing the beam-out is a Scotty thing. There is little guarantee, after the violent response by Starfleet Security - and Kirk, as it so happens - that the transwarp transporter would be recovered intact, let alone by someone who knew what it was and knew how it worked.


Again, this makes Bond villains look sensible.

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Fleeing to QonoS makes a certain amount of sense for Khan... especially since he might be able to rig himself up to pass as an Augment-virus afflicted Klingon.


That's assuming they even had that issue in this timeline/universe. And why go to a totally alien world at all? This isn't Snowden being welcomed by Russia, this is self-exile to not-even-terra incognita, alone.

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Conversely, only a very special of a Starfleet officer would comply with blatantly illegal orders risking starting a war with the Klingons by shooting at their homeworld, so the admiral can't count on having a patsy to perform the act.


Isn't that exactly what he does? Kirk is the patsy and like any good patsy has to be killed. He's a willing participant since, with Pike's death, Kirk is ticked off and after being relieved is looking to get in good graces . . . by this rationale, Pike was the actual target of the chopper attack. But in principle, any other ticked off young captain would have sufficed, it's juat that Kirk was the best candidate at the time.

Like Marcus said, he never intended for the crew of the Enterprise to live.

Quote:
Carol Marcus could easily have died. Her presence wasn't part of some crazy Xanatos gambit, it was unplanned.


This was definitely a surprise to all.

Quote:
And with her presence being unplanned, everything that follows from it? Also unplanned.


Yes, but this is exactly what I was saying and what the other guy talking about Orci the 9/11 truther nut was saying. Everything was going somewhat according to plan except for Carol Marcus, which means we must assess the plan as it would've gone without her involvement. And when we do so, we find that it is insane.

Quote:
That Kirk would have an "inside man" in system to disable the dreadnought at a key moment? Not at all something that could be counted on.


I never suspected that this was part of any plan.

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I think the conspiracy-theorist take on exactly how deep and complicated the plot goes is squirrelly.


I just don't see any way for it to make any sense whatsoever without conspiracist nuttery, unless we are supposed to take this movie as a farce about the land of the blind with the Enterprise crew being one-eyed men.

Basically, it seems that with the references to opportunism among the antagonists, that your suggestion is that Khan and Marcus were enemies as of the start of the film, and Marcus decided to use Khan's escape to the Klingon homeworld as casus belli, more or less . . . he would send his magic torpedoes with Kirk and have Kirk fire on the Klingon homeworld, and around the same time his ship would break, the Klingons would destroy them, and Marcus would have the war he'd been hoping to create. This was all thwarted by his daughter helping Kirk who had an attack of conscience and went on a raid instead of lobbing missiles.

I can live with that as-is, but then there are still a ton of gaping holes. Why did Khan go to the Klingon homeworld? Sure, it is suggested that he went there because it is the one place he thought Starfleet couldn't go, but that is extremely flimsy. Khan is a 20th Century superman who gets used while the Admiral holds his people hostage. He gets access to his people, hides them in a war-mongerers missiles, then makes a half-hearted attempt to kill the Admiral and runs away to a likely missile target and from any hope of being able to save his people permanently?

See, this is why I have trouble following the plot, because it quickly breaks down anytime you try to look at it.


Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:45 pm
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The plot is hard to follow.
Some legitimate questions people would raise, first.

What if during the rampage, key players get killed?
Plan B? Set up another false flag with an "obvious" hint to some remote Klingon activity?
Possible, but damn, that puts the Vengeance's use on hold.
If the vehicle Kahn used was caught, and if he had time to beam out, wouldn't someone wonder how the hell that kind of transwarp tech ended there while it's supposedly a secret tech the Fed got their hands on?
Oh ok, we have "traitors." Willing or bribed.
I think there's always a solution, but that's damn convoluted.

In fact, was Kahn escaping part of any plan? He just helped build the ship. Because Kahn did escape, right? Marcus lost sight of him sometimes around the end of the Vengeance being built.
And why the bother with the other Augments? Why that plot with putting them in missiles?
Why not just kill them somewhere or just throw them in a sun? After all, they were going to be fired at some ship, planet or something. They'd crash. Like, Augment Goo.

The whole plan needed the Enterprise to "start" the war, that is, officially, having dodged bureaucracy farwest style to bring justice to all and retrieve the guy who worked with Klingons. Or, officially at least, the terrorist who resided on Qonos.

Except that this terrorist is totally uncontrolable.

But then it works: Kahn somehow still works for Marcus. Let's just consider here that Marcus and Kahn made contact again and Kahn accepted to play patsy in order to recover his kin. Marcus told him he'd play the bad guy and go to Qonos, and in exchange, he'd be given the Augments' tubes, disguised as torpedoes which would just conveniently not explode but actually land like safety pods or else, like it happened for Spock.
Ok, the plan is better that way.
Safe that why would Marcus even send the Augments that way? Why would Kahn know anything and trust Marcus? Sure, Kahn didn't have much choice here, but then again leaving the Augments alive is a huge risk and giving all them back to Kahn would be silly. Kahn, free at the head of his SuperMensa club. Are you kidding me?
I believe that Marcus would just blow the hell out of them. So again why bother with the special sauce torpedoes? And what's the damned guaranty that they'd even be fired?
The moment they send the Enterprise, everything inside the Enterprise is on an unregulated solo mission. Crew, weapons, shuttles, everything.

Plus how the hell launching a small ship from so close to Qonos was supposed to be... unspotted?
The plot is so messy.

You want a false flag? Spend some budget building a fakish Klingon ship and have it do some runs against Federation worlds on the fringe. Even provoke some lone Klingon groups and somehow have them attack some other Fed assets.
Then have on top of that the sabotage used as a theory of traitors being "within out ranks", where bribery runs rampant, which allows martial law to reign supreme.
And have that sabotage made by someone you can actually trust, not a heartbroken father given some kind of antimatter bomb by a rogue freak.


Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:15 pm
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You guys do realize the Q are in the background making sure things work out.


Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:32 am
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