Trinoya wrote: I do what I can.
I think you might agree with this criticism of the Abrams Star Trek movies.
http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/scifi/ ... kness.html?
Trinoya wrote: While entirely true that we don't see what was going on from their perspective this is an era when the klingons were not known for their honor, and certainly didn't seem to be demonstrating it in the movie when they actually do try to play it. Nonetheless I really doubt the Klingons wouldn't have interfered at the point they were at (Honestly I would have liked to see them interfere since it would have really shown that there was a real threat of war).
1) Why would the Klingons do anything from the point of view we saw the movie from? All the Klingons had was some Starfleet personnel trying to covertly capture of kill a criminal who had fled to Klingon soil without the Klingons knowing. At best the Klingons would know something odd was happening.
In any case, the Klingons had no real reason to go after Kirk. They had all the evidence they would need if they wanted war, and would likely know who the Starfleet personnel were or be able to easily find out who were involved.
We don't know the exact political pressures the Klingons have to deal with. It's generally a bad idea to go running out for blood do to the actions of a tiny group, and the Klingons can not deal with everyone being out for their blood.
2)I don't know where you got the idea the Klingons were ever an extremely honorable people in Star Trek? They like to talk honor a lot, but it is really only Worf who lived up to the Klingon ideal.
Trinoya wrote: When a major part of the plot is for them to get discovered to cause a war and we then see no klingon response at all I'd say it did matter to the story. Roboadmirals plan looses a lot of credibility.
It all works to paint the admiral as rather paranoid if not truly insane, but even then the plan called for an unprovoked attack on the Klingon capital to start the war.
What Kirk ended up down was perhaps a slap in the face to the Klingons, but going after Kirk or the Enterprise would not have served any purpose. The only practical thing the Klingons could do was file a complaint with someone above Kirk. From what we see the situation likely similar to the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R., or North Korea and South Korea. You do not take the step from cold war to hot war lightly.
Trinoya wrote: I did not mean to imply it wasn't warp capable, but it is small enough to fit in their shuttle bay so I figured calling it a shuttle would be more appropriate. It doesn't really matter for the point I was making. It goes straight to the homeworld, they kill a bunch of klingons, then they take off again even though security forces should have been all over them (or at the very least in pursuit).
For all we know the Klingons were watching the entire thing in cloaked ships.
The guy Kirk and company were after was the guy who killed the Klingons. Odds are they aren't going to be out for Kirk's blood, and may want to keep it quiet that someone was able to get to and hide on their capital.
Old Star Trek had standard ships able to go to warp in an Earth like atmosphere.
Ultimately none of the above is relevant to the story. We don't know what the Klingons did or why because we only see the story from the main character's points of view. What the Klingons did or didn't do is irrelevant to the story.
Trinoya wrote: This presumes the Klingons are aware that the enterprise is in trouble, and that they would have the honor to not just attack, something the klingons of this era (and even universe) have not demonstrated, and something that wouldn't be an obstacle (considering the incursion and attack on their people).
I fail to recall an example of a ship in Star Trek not being easily identified as not being functional. We are talking about major systems like warp drives not working here. The warp drive not working would be very hard to hide.
If what you suggest about Federation/Klingon relations was true then the admiral's plan would not have required an unprovoked attack on the Klingon capital. As it stands the admiral seems to have become overly paranoid.
Trinoya wrote: Khan came from earth in the 1990s. Unless otherwise stated the only difference between OTL khan and this one is cosmetic. His feats, as well as OTL khans feats, should both apply to one another as the incursion into the timeline doesn't occur until the Kelvin Incident, unless we presume all the other timeline incidents are also completely altered by this going all the way back to the formation of life of Earth... but that just seems like a stretch by any imagination (and honestly ruins all of 'nutrek' for me in one swoop).
PTL Khan never demonstrated superhuman abilities anywhere near the level of NTL Khan. NTL Khan is physically at least an equal to NTL Spock in every way, but OTL Khan was barely above OTL Kirk in capabilities.
All the characters have subtle but notable differences between NTL and PTL that I do not believe can be accounted for simply by the Kelvin incident. What ever caused the two time lines to differ seems to have happened before Khan was created, but given the large number of time travel events shown in the PTL there are many possibilities.
Trinoya wrote: It isn't stated on screen to be rare, and no one knew of a lot of things regarding augments as the knowledge (per enterprise) was suppressed to an extremely large degree. We had them specifically state on screen the reason they couldn't remove people from the pods is it could kill them and that would have been a reasonable explanation for why they needed khans magical blood specifically...
You know, until they removed one of them from the pod anyway.
They never said they couldn't wake the augments from what I recall. It was that they were unfamiliar with the cryogenic technology do to it falling into disuse.
Trinoya wrote: Man, sucks they risked that.
When? Bones made sure the augments never woke up.
Trinoya wrote: I don't question that they could still be moving... but moving so fast as to clear a good fraction of the earth/moon distance (while still moving slow enough to not break apart against the atmosphere, as well as have time to recover?). The science remains bad, and lazy, especially considering they could have just had them stop in orbit of Earth... or had them fall to the moon instead, or any number of other thematic decisions. The writers went a specific direction, the effects team went a specific direction, and ultimately gave us a scene that makes little to no sense. So we have lazy writing, lazy effects, and a lazy production team who can't work together it seems. Not the first thing in trek to suffer from that certainly, but considering I complain when it happens in other trek movies and shows as well I'm not going to give them a pass.
Trinoya wrote: The information they give still doesn't add up, and considering how big a scene it is, how much of the movie it encompasses, and how critical it was to their film so as to even be a center piece on the production art... yeah, I'm calling them lazy, they could have fixed it at any point, replacing the moon in a shot with Earth wouldn't be difficult.
This is seemingly a constant of Star Trek, and has seemingly always been so. Run the numbers for the reaction times needed to perform "Titan's Turn", or look at the beginning of "Timeless", or look at the Time Barrier talked about in "The Cage", and that ignores humans reacting to weapons that travel at nearly the speed of light if not faster. Either everyone is superhumanly fast, or there is temporal manipulation technology on Star Trek star ships.
For this sort of thing to suddenly be a problem for you is rather silly because it has been there for a long time in both directions.
Trinoya wrote: Vulcan wasn't demonstrated to be hours away in the previous movie (which is the point I'm making on distance/speed), and I would presume that New Vulcan isn't considering the real time communication with Spock even though they had communication problems. Someone, somewhere, could have had a ship to them in seconds from Mars, or Jupiter, or even the moon or earth.
Here is the problem, we do not know how long the Enterprise was traveling in either NTL movie. Hours is simply the bare minimum, and we have the example of the NX-01 traveling to the Klingon capital in a few days, and it was slower then Kirk's ship.
All we know for certain is that Spock had time to research the lovely and mysterious weapons expert, and figure out who she really was, but all this really tells us is that time was passing between cuts, and the trip was not happening in real times.
It is rather convenient for the Starfleet admiral in charge of the sector and carrying out an illegal plan to start a war with the Klingons that no one was able to come to help the Enterprise. It's almost like someone wanted there to be no one who could come and save the day if there was some sort of battle near Earth
Trinoya wrote: I would have loved to have seen those orders, or have him at least say, "Kirk.. now really, do you think I wouldn't have lied and given orders to not make my plan work?"
I don't think it needed to be stated verbally. As you noted there was no one in the Sol system that was able to help the Enterprise.
Trinoya wrote: It still doesn't change the apparent time frames involved or the bad writing/effects chosen though.
This os nothing new to Star Trek or Sci-Fi movies in general. It really shouldn't bug you.
Trinoya wrote: Would have been great to have any other starship get involved then...
But that would have interfered with the Admiral's plans.
Trinoya wrote: That any number of individuals, from section 31 to spock, should have been able to just beam aboard to help (or at least beam the crew off to safety when they were approaching earth). Although technically I can see this not being a plot hole. There are no other ships anywhere because starfleet has only a handful of them left, and I have no reason to presume starfleet in this universe has a transporter on anything other than starships considering their total absence on any non-vehicle.
So I'll just have to presume starfleet has virtually no ships, no captains with the foresight to make a decision to intervene, the security of a kidergarten class, and the military intelligence of Mexico circa 1899 in regards to the protection of Sol, and the response readiness of a drunken cat in a fire helmet during the Sanfransico Earthquake in 1906.
I don't think I like that option better than just presuming it's a plot hole though.
Or there were no other ships in range do to the Admiral wanting to start a war, and both the Vengeance and Enterprise being badly damaged. It also is shown in the last movie to be difficult to beam to or from moving objects even when you know where they are.
Trinoya wrote: It is unrealistic. Presuming no total corruption of the timeline (IE: Wiping everything that ever happened in Enterprise and prior to it) Earth has been attacked three times now, and Vulcan had been destroyed... They should have long since taken some security measures to prevent a decapitation strike from ruining their day...
In order to exploit the meeting you must first know where it will be, when it will be, and then be able to attack in the limited amount of time that the meeting will be taking place. You basically need to be privy to top secret information, or one of the people who is suppose to be at the meeting.
Trinoya wrote: As I said, my use of the word shuttle is in error, but the klingons still shouldn't have any difficult pursuing it. I have also not asserted they were limited to sub-light.
The problem is that we don't know what the Klingons did, and at least in the PTL they made heavy use of cloaks.
Trinoya wrote: Because their enemy just parked two ships on your boarder, one clearly a warship, the other clearly dispatching other craft into your territory and it was all part of the admirals plan in the first place? I could presume that the Klingons really didn't want a war (which is counter intuitive to their actions in the OTL, but they did supposedly loose a fleet) but it still doesn't explain the total no reaction. It's just another thing not explained or touched upon and that doesn't fit in with the established story they were going for... They could have even had the klingons RESCUE the enterprise from the vengeance (giving them the time to get away) or any number of other scenarios to play up the admirals plan not working... I digress, as I said I'm trying to avoid speculation and handwavium as much as possible. I personally would have expected a response, any response, and since none is given, even though Kirk is entirely freaked out about one and the Admirals plan rests upon it, I am left with a hanging plot hole, albeit a small one, but one that still nags at the end of the day.
And it was made clear that simply flying into the neutral zone would not start a war. If that was the case then there would be no reason to fire the Torpedos.
The Prime time line is not the new time line. Things were different before Khan was even created, and the Narada ripped the Klingons a new one shortly before destroying Vulcan.
You keep saying there was no reaction by the Klingons, but you do not know this. Why do the Klingons need to do anything on screen? Not reacting on screen does not equal not reacting.
I do agree that the Klingons acting on the Enterprise's behalf would have been a nice touch, but the Klingons behaving passively and not appearing at all makes the admiral's belief that much harder to take seriously, or that he was trying to kick the Klingons while they were down.
Trinoya wrote: They had enough information to know he went to the klingon homeworld and get a general idea of where... Since no one brings up transporters at all it seems a bit odd.
"Sir, why don't we send in an extraction team to go get him, transwarp transporters could let us get in and out with less chance of detection"
"no, we can't risk that technology falling into their hands. Even khans transporter was left behind."
Done, a throwaway line would solve another plot hole.
The characters are angry, scared, and did not have time to carefully think things through until they were pretty much already there.
How would the extraction team get home? You seem to have forgotten the transporter does not seem to go with the person being transported.
Trinoya wrote: They were, supposedly, members of section 31, a super intelligence agency and a branch of starfleet, just because you don't have the uniform doesn't mean much.
I don't recall this ever being stated, and hired guns are nothing new to Star Trek
Trinoya wrote: You still need people to conduct operations, pilot shuttles, land them, etc. They could have departed with a small crew, but you would expect them to notice the full mass of an extra shuttle landing on board. Even the connie in the previous timeline could detect the heartbeats of every crew member.
Really, at the end of the day it's just reeks of bad security. It'd be like walking into a hanger with a new fighter project going on at area 51 and then just hobnobbing about for a bit.
This isn't true in the real world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shadow_(IX-529)
Everything you say they needed people to do could have been done by the crew we saw on the Vengeance, and it appears the small number of people involved was the reason the project was secret.
Given how easily Scotty sneaked in, security seems to have been poor once someone knew about the place, but you almost had to know the place was there first. It doesn't hurt that Scotty just happened to show up when the largest possible hole in their security was presenting itself.
Trinoya wrote: Khan did not have a light skin tone.
And where are you getting this information from?
Trinoya wrote: You're dodging the issue I presented. I don't care if the female korean from Gangnam Style played Khan as long as they said, "yeah, we totally gave him a make over and now he is FABULOUS!"
I'm not dodging anything because there is nothing to dodge. There is no reason for any of this to have come up. Your complaint is just silly.
Trinoya wrote: Part of it is. The other part is that it is so trivially easy to fix so many of these holes that I can't forgive them for existing in the first place. As an action science fiction flick all of these are forgivable.
And completely unimportant bogs down the story. What you call plot wholes are just unimportant details you would have liked fleshed out more, but if they didn't flesh out the details how you would have liked it then you would be complaining about that. Had they fleshed things out more you would likely be complaining about how they wasted time on unimportant details, and how it took away from the story.
Trinoya wrote: That doesn't revoke my point that it had plot holes that ruined it as a trek movie for me.
For something to be a plot hole it needs to be relevant to the plot. What you seem to be complaining about are non-plot relevant details.
Trinoya wrote: You'll need to forgive me on this one: I am at work and do not have access to Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzjzu8BTcaU wrote:
Star Trek Wars - Nightwish music video
Star Trek isn't many what many people think. Perhaps this would have been the better franchise to name 'Star Wars'...
(Video clips of starship battles)
See? Star Trek has lots of explosions, battles, wars etc. Not quite Roddenbarry's vision of the future, is it?
You can't be at work 24/7.