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The second nuTrek movie : Into Dorkness 
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2046 wrote:
But that's the problem . . . at face value, it was a series of disjointed events whose only significant connection was that it generally included the same irrational characters.

...

I just don't see any way for it to make any sense whatsoever without conspiracist nuttery, unless we are supposed to take this movie as a farce about the land of the blind with the Enterprise crew being one-eyed men.

I don't think that's a bad way to take this movie. I think you mostly agree with me that Khan being still on the admiral's side and the entire thing being a big giant complex devious plan up until Khan clocks the admiral would require that the plan be completely insane and irrational in the first place.

Sometimes, the only connection in a story is that it's about what's happening to the characters. Why is Kirk sleeping with [INSERT WOMAN HERE] who never shows up again? Because it reminds us who Kirk is supposed to be. This story is about the characters going through stuff and their relationships. Stray consequences
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Why did Khan go to the Klingon homeworld? Sure, it is suggested that he went there because it is the one place he thought Starfleet couldn't go, but that is extremely flimsy. Khan is a 20th Century superman who gets used while the Admiral holds his people hostage. He gets access to his people, hides them in a war-mongerers missiles, then makes a half-hearted attempt to kill the Admiral and runs away to a likely missile target and from any hope of being able to save his people permanently?

Two questions; I have two answers.

1. What about the hostages?

Here's what - face value - ought to have been happening between the admiral and Khan. Khan goes to work for the admiral, the admiral is holding his people - holding them hostage, as Khan sees it. Khan then puts them in long-range missiles. The admiral finds out about this, probably because Khan overlooked something 23rd century in nature, assumes - probably correctly - that Khan is plotting to spring his hostages, and makes the missiles disappear. Khan assumes that this means that the admiral has killed the hostages.

Why? Because the admiral is not a very nice person and has a bit of a temper ... and Khan misbehaved. "Misbehave and I'll kill the hostages," followed by the hostages vanishing.

So he doesn't know that his people are still alive until he discovers those missiles are on board the Enterprise. And the admiral wants to shoot the missiles full of people at Khan because the admiral thinks it is some sort of poetic justice. Why? Because the admiral is not a very nice person and has a bit of a temper.

2. Why Qo'noS?

Okay, the first thing to bear in mind is that, if we're taking this at face value, Khan's on a rampage because his people are dead. Khan needs two things: Safety and the ability to rebuild his long-range plans.

The NuTrek timeline's point of divergence is post-ENT. It at least purportedly keeps the pre-Narada, that is, pre-2233, stuff the same, and the ancient Admiral Archer whose dog was lost is even supposed to be the same Jonathan Archer. We have every reason to believe that the Augment Virus happened, so it would be possible for him - with superhuman strength and durability - to pass for a Klingon who had been affected by the virus.

So he could, in principle, get by on Qo'noS without the Klingons killing him. Check one for safety.

Second, the Federation is not in a good position to win a war with the Klingons, and even a winning war of containment is not likely to extend to bombarding Qo'noS extensively and massacring the civilian population. Check two for safety.

Third, even if the admiral is searching for casus belli for a shooting war with the Klingons, launching an illegal mission to Qo'noS is a crap plan. After all, nearly every line starship captain and officer would swiftly identify those orders as illegal and liable to start a war. We saw evidence of that in how every Starfleet officer who isn't Kirk or the admiral reacted to those orders. Scotty even resigned, and with anything less than Kirk's cult of personality among the bridge crew, the rest of the officers aboard ship probably would have followed suit. Check three for safety.

Only the fact that the admiral happens to have an eager loose cannon on hand, who also has a strong cult of personality surrounding him, makes that plan a remote possibility, and Khan doesn't know Kirk from Adam at that point in time. Not that Kirk is even supposed to have a realistic chance of resuming command of anything when Khan lays out his plans and then starts his rampage.

As a last possibility, he might even be thinking that when the inevitable war with the Federation starts, he can sell out Section 31's secrets in exchange for some very big favors from the Klingons.

So. That's safety. But Khan is ambitious.

Not only is there a strain of Klingons infected with his "superior" genetics, but Klingons are genetically compatible with humans. We've seen multiple examples of hybrid Klingons... who are themselves demonstrably interfertile with both Klingons and humans, to the point of having unplanned kids.

Khan probably knows this. He can have kids here, possibly lots of kids. Check one for plans.

Klingon culture is also very meritocratic and has a warrior-fetish. Good sort of society to be in if you're "superior." You can climb up the ranks. Even if you can't necessarily stab your way to being Emperor, you can get very far as a skilled warrior with a good brain.

So Khan could possibly found his own House. Check two for plans.

Third, the Klingon Empire is a very powerful and enduring entity. There's no guarantee that Khan thinks the Federation is likely to win a war with the Klingons; he can probably see that the Klingon Empire has been, still is, and is likely to remain one of the most powerful political entities in the region for generations.

That makes it a great launchpad for an ambitious man who would like his descendants to rule a galaxy. Check three for plans.


Now, there are other reasons why Qo'noS is a bad idea; but there certainly are some reasons why Khan might decide to pick Qo'noS.


Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:46 am
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Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Third, even if the admiral is searching for casus belli for a shooting war with the Klingons, launching an illegal mission to Qo'noS is a crap plan. After all, nearly every line starship captain and officer would swiftly identify those orders as illegal and liable to start a war. We saw evidence of that in how every Starfleet officer who isn't Kirk or the admiral reacted to those orders. Scotty even resigned, and with anything less than Kirk's cult of personality among the bridge crew, the rest of the officers aboard ship probably would have followed suit. Check three for safety.


Ironically enough, that made Kirk as dangerous as Khan. Feeling superior, not bound to orders, regulations and all the moral principles which, in theory, were the basis of the Federation's code of conduct. Barely any different than warmongering admiral Alexander Marcus; being reckless, aggressive and presomptuous as to take the chance to start a war just over a question of vengeance and will for bloddshed. In Perdition's flames indeed.
Khan looks like an abused nice buddy in comparison, in that movie.


Last edited by Mr. Oragahn on Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:14 pm
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For some untold reason I jumped back into the movie and started watching entire sections of it. Then at some point I was like damn, this looks and sounds more like Star Wars than Trek. The style, visuals, music even!
So after following some Trek clips at random, I decided to check out some pulled out of the latest Trek movie and read some people's reactions. Insightful, contrary to many comment sections on YT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_Ca9ybf63k

I lol'd when I read that commentary:

NorthwestNinja wrote:
1:52 aaand cue the Star Wars music, 1:58 and the Star Wars style of scene transition, 1:59 Star Wars style planet approach shot, 2:06 and here we have the classic cockpit interior shot complete with R2-D2 like computer noises in the background, and similar instrument screen colors and fonts, 2:10 another exterior approach shot where an X-Wing would stand in easily... also at 2:20... and the music just keeps evoking John Williams. My goodness Abrams you really wanted to be working on something else, didn't you? Haha.


"Yes, that's Dagobah, Artoo ... looks a little grim doesn't it ..."


Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:15 pm
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...

Was Khan supposed to be a bad guy in that movie or what?

The guy was pretty much blackmailed and betrayed by the top of the UFP. He had no reason to give a damn about Kirk and all perfect reasons to despise them and the UFP.
As far as he was concerned, Kirk was just the admiral's pet, on a mission he knew would have never been sanctionned officially. It was all cape and dagger stuff and he had no reason to trust him and his crew. It was also perfectly clear that at the slightest flinch of the finger, we'd be put dead or back into a cell.
His violence was not excessive either, just in line with his superhuman abilities and intellect.
Hell, the plot was so screwed that they even made him lose by being nice and naïve.
He even was having fun during the ship-to-ship space trip. Nice fella.

What's even worse is that the movie never spends time to speak about the reason these guys were put into those tubes. If you've never seen any previous Trek movie or episode, you're just not going to be tainted by any bias against Khan.

He was also made particularily tougher and stronger in this timeline. Superblood aside, the strength demonstrated by alt-Khan was, I think, quite leaps above that of the original Khan. Kirk in the prime timeline could have never won against that guy. Not even with the help of a club. Not even with breathing a lil' bit of knockout gas (which didn't happen as far as Khan was concerned iirc).


Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:09 pm
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Khan did have all those abilities, except the regenerating blood:

Khan easily disarms Kirk and breaks the phaser:
Image
Image

Khan rather effortlessly lifts Chekov (in space suit) up:
Image

There is a hint of regeneration, if not high stamina and other abilities as noted in TOS' "Space Seed":

KIRK: Bones?

MCCOY: He'll live.

KIRK: My compliments.

MCCOY: No, I'm good, but not that good. There's something inside this man that refuses to accept death. Look at that. Even as he is now, his heart valve action has twice the power of yours and mine. Lung efficiency is fifty percent better.
(McGivers enters)


Intellect:

KHAN: Captain, I wonder if I could have something to read during my convalescence. I was once an engineer of sorts. I would be most interested in studying the technical manuals on your vessel.

KIRK: Yes, I understand. You have two hundred years of catching up to do.
KHAN: Precisely.


Later Khan reveals how much he knows of the Enterprise operations by setting the self-destruct in Engineering:

(Khan is working controls and listening to the intercom messages.)

SPOCK [OC]: Captain, acknowledge. Unable to flood Engineering section. I suspect

SCOTT [OC]: This is Scott. Captain's headed for the Engineering section. I'll follow in case

SPOCK [OC]: Negative. We must retake the vessel while the anesthesia lasts. Meet me in the Armoury. I'm blowing it clear first. Spock out.
(Kirk dashes into Engineering and straight into Khan, who easily disarms him then crushes the phaser. Then an alarm beeps.)

KHAN: If I understood your manuals, that's an overload in progress. Your ship flares up like an exploding sun within minutes.


Strength levels:

KHAN:I have five times your strength. You're no match for me.

And of course Khan and his merry band took over and operated the refit-style U.S.S. Reliant with little trouble. So yeah, most or all of it was there, just not as heavily showcased as it was in Into Darkness.
-Mike


Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:58 pm
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You forgot the part about Khan easily goes down when clubbed thrice by a man five times weaker.

Quite apples and oranges against überSpock and the use of Vulcan fingery voodoo (twice), smashed in the face with the equivalent of a club (several times) and squarely hit at point blank range with a series of stunning bolts from Uhura's gun.

Other than this little technicality, anything to say about the rest of the post? :)


Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:46 pm
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Mr. Oragahn wrote:
You forgot the part about Khan easily goes down when clubbed thrice by a man five times weaker.

Quite apples and oranges against überSpock and the use of Vulcan fingery voodoo (twice), smashed in the face with the equivalent of a club (several times) and squarely hit at point blank range with a series of stunning bolts from Uhura's gun.

Other than this little technicality, anything to say about the rest of the post? :)

And did Khan have time to fully recover from his Cryo nap?

Appearently there may have been some scenes that got cut.
http://io9.com/the-star-trek-into-darkn ... 1535711446


Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:28 am
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Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
You forgot the part about Khan easily goes down when clubbed thrice by a man five times weaker.

Quite apples and oranges against überSpock and the use of Vulcan fingery voodoo (twice), smashed in the face with the equivalent of a club (several times) and squarely hit at point blank range with a series of stunning bolts from Uhura's gun.

Other than this little technicality, anything to say about the rest of the post? :)

And did Khan have time to fully recover from his Cryo nap?

Appearently there may have been some scenes that got cut.
http://io9.com/the-star-trek-into-darkn ... 1535711446


Deleted scenes don't matter, and if it took time for prime-Khan to recover, then that's another sign that he's clearly an inferior beast right there, since nuKhan heals and revives shit and torments as soon as someone flicks a switch or plants a needle.

- Sick girl on terminal phase: small quantity of blood does wonders within seconds. Khan is literally chokefull of that blood.
- Dead tribble: Bones plants his needle to test the fantastic blood taken from that Joe Smith guy they have in custody, by the end of the movie the tribble is ALIVE!! Couple hours at most?
- Kirk : two weeks after dying from radiation, which means his entire body, from the cellular level down to strands of DNA, was literally breaking apart, he's back on foot. Woot!

Besides, when people are removed from the cryotube, they're in very good shape. So they don't have much to recover from already.

Back to nuKhan: right in the middle of a battle, the guy deals with no less than two Vulcan grips when a single one, in short duration, is more than enough to knock out any human. He quickly recovers and continues to punch and leap. So I consider it doesn't take much time for him to get back on feet either.


Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:46 am
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Two big Trek movies and so little nerdy analysis going on here.
Are the usual old Trek boards equally uninterested in doing deep autopsy of those latest movies?
After all we're one movie short of Star Wars' old trilogy and god knows how much stuff has been written about them on the versus side of things!


Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:48 am
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